Save Me (us) From The Dark Side !!!!

[i_955]

You’d have to be blind or stupid to think for a second the 4 stroke is not going to cost you a lot of money very soon.
They cost more to buy, they cost more to maintain and they need replacement way way way sooner than a 2 stroke.

Everyone in the industry must gets a nickel every time they say the 4 stroke is better, the 4 stroke is superior, the 4 stroke alive, the 2 stroke is dead.

Who wins? Not the guy buying the bikes that is for sure!!!
Not the next door neighbor (sound).
The tree hugger?
The tax man? Yes.
The dealer sales/parts/repair. Yes,yes.
The manufacturer. BINGO

One thing is for sure! I’m sick of people telling me the 4 stroke is better. I’m not blind or stupid!!!
And I do "right now" have a choice. Smart money buys 2 strokes until the 4S are stronger/reliable/lighter/cheaper and quieter.

 

[rm_racer]

People say that 4 strokes are better then a 2 stroke in almost every way. But thats if you look at it from the way the AMA does. If you were to look at it this way- CC for CC, the four strokes are slower, way under powered, heavyer, louder, more expensive to buy and upkeep, and even the preformance parts are more expensive. So what makes people think there better? The fact that it takes double the displacmeant to make equal power? Or is it the hit, or the lack of it should I say?

When a 250cc 4 stroke can wreck a 250cc 2 stroke (with a equally skilled rider mind you) I will go to the dealer right then and buy one. I guess that means I wont be buying a four stroke for quite a while.

I know most of this has been said before in this thread, but Im just stating my views.

 

[john3_16]

Every year the factories, with exception to KTM's EXC/MXC or XC/XC-W line, are losing more and more money making and selling the 2-strokes. As far as MX/SX is concerned, the two stroke death is as much to blame on the AMA as it is to blame on the factories or riders themselves. 4-stroke bikes are hot sellers, that's why the 2-stroke is dying, rules have nothing to do with it. The pro's don't make the factories any money, we do. The amatures that purchase these bikes are what is driving the death of the two stroke. At first, riding a 4-stroke gave you an advantage over all the 2T's. Now If you don't ride one, you are at a disadvantage. If everyone bought up the 2-stokes instead of the 4's, the factories would be in a bit of a pickle.

The rules have EVERYTHING to do with it...

 

[john3_16]

Why would the AMA change the rules for the pro's when none of them are racing 2-strokes?

At one time in AMA SX nobody was racing 4 strokes either but the rules were changed to give them an advantage...And there is a reason why the manufacturers started building them...It's not because of the AMA either...The manufacturers were under pressure from their government...All of the major motorcycle manufacturers are located in countries that have signed the Kyoto treaty and any country that goes above their allotted carbon emissions has to pay huge fines...

All of these rules come from a source that would like to see off road riding banned all together...

If this trend continues, it won't be long until riding is illegal....period....It's called the slippery slope and off road riding is on it right now.

 

[Okiewan]

You’d have to be blind or stupid to think for a second the 4 stroke is not going to cost you a lot of money very soon.
They cost more to buy, they cost more to maintain and they need replacement way way way sooner than a 2 stroke

And when all the aftermarket companies and mfg's only have one bike to build for, those prices will come down. Why is a 4 stroke exhaust so expensive? Additional R&D, tooling, inventory, etc. Economies of scale. Simple.

Why do CC's really matter? I don't think anyone will argue that the 4-t's are getting close to 2-T's in weight, it's just a matter of time. If the motor has the same or close to the same form factor and the bikes weigh close to the same, "CC's" make No difference what so ever.

If you can fit twice the CC's in the same virtual space, which one really is the highest performance?

 

[oldfrt613]

In an effort to lighten things up a bit - I have the perfect solution to even the odds ! 15 minutes before a race require everyone to change the main jet and jet needle. All the 2-strokes will be accross the finish line before the first thumper gets to the gate :laugh:

 

[Okiewan]

Ah, but see? Only 2-strokes are so damn picky about jetting :p

 

[oldfrt613]

You are evil, aren't you

 

[Okiewan]

Yes. Yes I am. They call me "Evil E" or E2 for short.
Hey, this 2t-4t thing is an interesting topic as long as everyone keeps their head ... but frankly? I'd ride either and be happy that I "CAN" ride at all. This division surely isn't good.

 

[oldfrt613]

yes, yes - thats why I have both, and will be picking up a 450 in January

 

[mtk]

And when all the aftermarket companies and mfg's only have one bike to build for, those prices will come down. Why is a 4 stroke exhaust so expensive? Additional R&D, tooling, inventory, etc. Economies of scale. Simple.

Why do CC's really matter? I don't think anyone will argue that the 4-t's are getting close to 2-T's in weight, it's just a matter of time. If the motor has the same or close to the same form factor and the bikes weigh close to the same, "CC's" make No difference what so ever.

If you can fit twice the CC's in the same virtual space, which one really is the highest performance?

Do you want to bet on those prices coming down?

CDs, when first introduced, cost more to manufacture than vinyl albums and were priced higher as a result. That cost differential lasted about six months and then CDs were cheaper to manufacture. We're still waiting for the prices to drop. The market has accepted the outrageous prices for four-stroke pipes so there will be little incentive for manufacturers to lower them.

As for four-strokes being less sensitive to jetting, that is only true if you don't care about it running at its best. I changed jetting on my four-stroke roadrace bike all the time to keep it running well. Air density changes don't care how many strokes your engine uses per power pulse and carburetors operate on the same principles regardless of engine type.

 

[Masterphil]

Yes, But 2-strokes are more sensative to their jetting specs.

Look at the prices for sportbike exhaust systems. They're sky high too, I just hope Bob is still making pipes when I get around to going thumper again, not anytime in the near future.

One thing a 4-stroke will never be able to do is match the handling of a 2-stroke, especially given the displacement advantage. The rotating mass on a 125 vs 250F and 250 vs 450f will always be less for the 2T's, not to mention the additional mass of camshafts. It may be a small factor, but still a factor nonetheless.

I would be perfectly happy with manufacturers as long as they continue to develop the 2T right alongside the 4T, even if the 2T is at a clear disadvantage. I just want to have the option of buying a 2T with the latest in technology and development, even if I am at a power disadvantage. I don't really care if I'm faster on the 4T, almost everyone is. It's just not that important to me to win every race I enter. I just want to go out on the track and race with someone, at the back of the pack if that's all the better I can be on a 2T. Remember 95% rider 5% bike...

 

[oldfrt613]

A look at materials will tell you why exhaust prices are so high. Got to keep that weight down - titanium pipe is a lot more expensive than a steel one - but just imagine if we could shed 10 lbs off our 2 strokes - now we're talking some serious fun !

 

[Okiewan]

A look at materials will tell you why exhaust prices are so high. Got to keep that weight down - titanium pipe is a lot more expensive than a steel one - but just imagine if we could shed 10 lbs off our 2 strokes - now we're talking some serious fun !

So if there are no 2-t's, then the pipes don't need to be made of ti, yeah?

 

[oldfrt613]

You realy don't play play well with outhers do you ;)

 

[john3_16]

Why do CC's really matter? I don't think anyone will argue that the 4-t's are getting close to 2-T's in weight, it's just a matter of time. If the motor has the same or close to the same form factor and the bikes weigh close to the same, "CC's" make No difference what so ever.

If you can fit twice the CC's in the same virtual space, which one really is the highest performance?

Which has the highest performance ? Two sides to that equation..

Put a fully developed modern 450CC 2 stroke engine in a 250cc motocross bike and we'll see what happens...

 

[Okiewan]

Which has the highest performance ? Two sides to that equation..

Put a fully developed modern 450CC 2 stroke engine in a 250cc motocross bike and we'll see what happens...

Assuming the factory bikes meet your standard... exotic parts, works parts, etc.. the 4-t won. You have more money to spend than the big 5 to develop that 2-t?

Next?

Put a fully developed modern 450CC 2 stroke engine in a 250cc motocross bike and we'll see what happens...

Then you almost have a SH CR500AF. Buy one. You can run it in the age classes and live happily ever after.

Do you seriously think a major will ever build that bike?

Let's just cut to the chase and say "I'll get a 1,000 cc 2-stroke and beat everyone" and be done with it :p

 

[oldfrt613]

Let's just cut to the chase and say "I'll get a 1,000 cc 2-stroke and beat everyone" and be done with it :p

:coocoo:

See ya in the ER after that 1000 is done with you ! ;)

Bottom line - it's only a matter of time ........... and I don't think it will be that much time. Now remind me - what's so bad about new thumpers :think: oh, they're different.

 

[mtk]

Now remind me - what's so bad about new thumpers :think: oh, they're different.

They're noisy and much, much more expensive to maintain.

The former is bad for keeping riding areas open and the latter is bad for your wallet.

 

[i_955]

And when all the aftermarket companies and mfg's only have one bike to build for, those prices will come down. Why is a 4 stroke exhaust so expensive? Additional R&D, tooling, inventory, etc. Economies of scale. Simple.

Continuing where Masterphil & mtk left off..

Do to high insurance costs and a crack down on highway offensives, I come from the street bike scene where the aftermarket exhaust is an extremely hot market, probably, no definitely hotter than dirt because there are more street bikes than dirt. Your point is that more sales = less eventual cost?
Aftermarket mfg’s have a set can that fits all 600cc, another for 1000cc etc. The only difference is the connector pipe and mounts. The cost of an aftermarket can is still the same price three/five years after a new bike model comes out as it was when it was first introduced. Your comment is false, these exhaust companies have been making pipes for CBR600’s for decades. They are still close to $1000 and no sign of reductions.
With the yearly changes manufacturers make to dirt bikes every year, head/chasis/1 can-2can-back to 1 can frame changes etc. Your comment appears off the cuff with misleading skepticism. Do you get a nickel for that?

Why do CC's really matter? I don't think anyone will argue that the 4-t's are getting close to 2-T's in weight, it's just a matter of time. If the motor has the same or close to the same form factor and the bikes weigh close to the same, "CC's" make No difference what so ever.

Anyone with the ability to think for themselves will easily "be able to argue" that if the same precious metals went into the construction of a two stroke motor, the weight, and engine life would be reduced and the costs would increase.
The 2006 YZ 250 motor hasn't needed to change since what, 1999? Small updates only. The manufactures are using all of you F-stroke buyers as Ginny-Pigs.
When you's get it right, I'll buy one. Hopefully I'll be in an old age home by then, with my hearing in tact.

If you can fit twice the CC's in the same virtual space, which one really is the highest performance?

Hehehe, nice. Point in hand. TWICE or DOUBLE the cc in the same space.

When a 250 four stroke is the same performance (PH) as the 250 two stroke!!!!, and when the centralization of the weight is as low in the motor as the 250 2 stroke, and the absolute most important thing above all “when they are as quite or even quieter, then and only then my friend!!!

I guess it all depends on whether you are gambling man or not. Buy a F-stroke and if it makes it around the track I might be .025 seconds faster. The faster I go the harder I hit the ground. I’ll gamble my hard earned dollars on food, beer, new tire, rings etc.

You realy don't play well with others do you ;)

No kidding,
Okiewan, you’re the only one poking and provoking!
It’s like trying to have an intelligent discussion with a drunk drunk!

Biggest problem, it is our 2 stroke sandbox in his moms backyard.

 

[Okiewan]

Well there 1_995 , you seemed to have your feathers ruffled? I could sit here another 10 minutes and respond, but it'll just be more of the same.

Next time when replying to me, leave the petty insults out. mmmkay? It really hurts credibility.
As far as provoking? This is a discussion forum, it's kinda my job to provoke discussion.

 

[oldfrt613]

As far as provoking? This is a discussion forum, it's kinda my job to provoke discussion.

And your so good at it. :laugh:

Lighten up guys ! The point of all this is fun. ;)

They will make the thumpers quieter - they don't have much choice, I think this it the big reason behind the dual muffler on the new CRF. In the hotrod world, we're always trying to see how big a motor we can stuff in a given place. Given 2 like displacements, ther is no arguing that the 2 stroke developes more power - but rules is rules and the displacements are not the same - you can argue it's not fair, but that's life. You have to remember that operational costs are really secondary in the world of racing, and we are talking mostly about RACE bikes. No one can argue that thumpers like the XR are cheap to own - no they aren't race bikes, but that's the point - racing costs money, and now it will cost a little more - but poeple will always spend money on tickles their fancy.

I love my 2-strokes and will keep them for as long as I can, but I also love my 4-strokes. We need to stick together and make sure we are all working together to keep riding and right now noise has got to be our biggest concern - not engine design !

 

[i_955]

Well there 1_995 , you seemed to have your feathers ruffled? I could sit here another 10 minutes and respond, but it'll just be more of the same.

Next time when replying to me, leave the petty insults out. mmmkay? It really hurts credibility.
As far as provoking? This is a discussion forum, it's kinda my job to provoke discussion.

Discussion is good. :cool:
I read lots and lots of down playing the proven platform and the promotion of a product in development. It is hard not to pass comment free when I've lost 2, possibly 3 (when he cracks his motor open to find out why it’s not working) riding buddies to expensive 450 motor repairs.

My feathers are not ruffled and I truly meant to ruffle none.

We will all have to concede to the 4 stroke craze at some point. They are a good machine and the next issue will be great I'm sure.

Sorry for calling you out, I apologize for ruffling.

 

[Avena Quaker]

Now remind me - what's so bad about new thumpers :think: oh, they're different.

Now remind me, whats soo good about them ?
A: You have an unfair advantage over 2 strokes in the same class. Nothing else.

 

[Masterphil]

Keep in mind that I jumped on the bandwagon back in sept 01, farted along for 4 years, and am as of two months ago returning to a 2-stroke. For me it was the best choice. I think I've said just about everything I can on this topic. You guys have fun, howevermany strokes.

But do remember, 4-Strokes suck :)