2000$ for a 2002 xr 400 that is clean and freshly rebuilt, in my book would be a good deal,NADA book value or not. If you have a manual,a torque wrench,and feeler gauges I Know I would go for doing most of the labor myself and farming out the head work. As for questioning your ability to do it,it is not brain surgery, if you can read the manual well and have an organized manner all you really have to do is take the parts off according the manual and then put good parts in as the manual states. Do nothing more and nothing less than what the manual states and you should have a bike that will last you a fairly long time. If you don't understand something in the manual ask questions
XR400R Bent valves
- Thread starter DougTx
- Start date
- Dec 26, 1999
- 19,774
- 0
You have a great bike that takes minimal maintenance, if it serves your riding needs (very likely) then spending a bit to get it back in tip top shape is a small price to pay in comparison to rolling the dice on a new bike and the significantly higher level of love it would require. XR's are freakin' awesome bikes and with the coin you save doing the work yourself popping in a performance cam might be a little bonus for your efforts. You are running in to normal wear on a XR4, a bike that doesn't ask for much love. If you think any of the current 4 stroke water cooled techno bikes are "better" (i.e. like an XR just faster) you'll be disappointed. Check the maintenance requirements of any bike and you'll see you have a real gem in comparison. Then again I might be a bit bias :)
The Honda Factory Service Manual makes taking the bike down to nuts and bolts darn near idiot proof so the light mechanical work you are looking at should be a breeze. Also realize you have a really big plus working for you in that both Rich and Terry (89'er) have significant experience with these engines and Mr. Junk is an XR guy in a big way as well. As a matter of fact Rich built my XR284 several years ago and with basic by the book maintenance and less than $75 in parts it still runs just as well today as when I popped it back in the frame, something I seriously doubt could be said of a water cooled race bike.
So go for it! Do the work yourself or take up the offers here on DRN and you'll be glad you did it in the end. The worst possible thing is that you will need to get a digital camera to post some clean pics of areas you have questions on. If you get really balled up drive down to Austin and I'll help you put Humpty Dumpty back together again.
The Honda Factory Service Manual makes taking the bike down to nuts and bolts darn near idiot proof so the light mechanical work you are looking at should be a breeze. Also realize you have a really big plus working for you in that both Rich and Terry (89'er) have significant experience with these engines and Mr. Junk is an XR guy in a big way as well. As a matter of fact Rich built my XR284 several years ago and with basic by the book maintenance and less than $75 in parts it still runs just as well today as when I popped it back in the frame, something I seriously doubt could be said of a water cooled race bike.
So go for it! Do the work yourself or take up the offers here on DRN and you'll be glad you did it in the end. The worst possible thing is that you will need to get a digital camera to post some clean pics of areas you have questions on. If you get really balled up drive down to Austin and I'll help you put Humpty Dumpty back together again.
gifthopsduane
Member
- Dec 8, 2008
- 11
- 0
Doug...
Here's my .02$.
Option 1.. Do nothing, ride and enjoy the bike, fix it when it definitively breaks, (hoping you don't suck a valve..) you might be surprise the life you get out of this motor. Also at that time you might have enough saved to do the job right.
Option 2.. Take a video of the bike, idling. I good clear one with good sound. Post it on Youtube and let some of us here what's it sounds like. Your XR will sound much different than the CR (I am not assuming this is the first time you've been around a 4 stroke, but....) then someone (not me..) with a fine tuned ear can at least have some opinion.
Option 3.. Buy the minimum amount of tools you need to "service" the bike yourself... learn it, love it...live it. Get yourself familiar with the basics.. take the manual wherever you go. Take it into the can, re-read it over coffee in the morning, sit next to your bike and read it..this way you know whats what.. and
1.. take it apart yourself, and ship the head out to OL'89er let him build it, or at least give you some advice on it.. (what's shipping to CA?)
2.. find an independent repair shop, or better yet a machine shop who specializes or has a passion for motorcycles, take the bike there, let them hear it, do a LEAK DOWN test on it.. and go from there, get options.
3.. Don't do the head yourself... if you were going to just do a reseal then go for it, but don't get yourself involved with replacing and reaming guides, cutting seats... if you never did it before you could make a costly mistake.. plus you need to tool up for it, and why not spend some of that on a pro?
Its easy enough to get some clear advice on the bike while its together and running. Then to disassemble is easy, novice work, then take the head back to said pro's and have them look at it again.. quotes and advice are usually free.. if they treat you like an idiot then find someone else.. a good technician will literally take you by the hand and explain what is going on, in a clear and concise unassuming manner. No doubt the service manager was a seasoned pro by the way you were treated, but he is not doing the work, and from experience it sounded like he was sincere in his opinion on what needed to be done, but was only being "told" the facts by a less than qualified tech who jumped the gun and tore your bike down without going through the proper steps first, and above that without your permission. I will stand firm in my opinion that for anything more than routine service work, tires and tubes a dealer is the absolute worst and last place to take a motorcycle, no exceptions.
But... do not be rash and get rid of the bike, then spend more on a new one.. its a great bike, treat her well, fix it right and enjoy it.
The worst thing is the anxiety over wether or not you made the right decision, that leads to wrong decisions.. take a breather, weigh your options, at least get a clear diagnosis on what state the motor is in.. MOST IMPORTANT!!!! that way when you finally decide to get rid of the bike the next owner knows EXACTLY what they are getting themselves into.
I am trained Ferrari mechanic, I've rebuild Ferrari heads, reamed guides and l've cut seats... I build Porsche motors now! I have my own shop specializing in mechanical restorations.. I recently found that my XL500r needs a valve job, and I will probably just shoot it off to my machinist to have him build it right. I trust him... No matter how many motors I do I still have him do the heads, he's tooled for them, and his 40 years experience out way mine 4x....
Its easy for us to tell you to do the work yourself, but.. we don't know you, we don't know your technical ability, how tool friendly you are, how well you can translate written instructions into a physical act. You may be an IT wizkid and the best rider in the world, but a complete disaster with tools.. forums are a great source of advice and inspiration, instruction and guidance, but its just written word, set forth with the assumption that the reader is just like the author. You need to assess the situation and be willing to accept the truth or adapt to fix the problem at hand.
good luck..
Here's my .02$.
Option 1.. Do nothing, ride and enjoy the bike, fix it when it definitively breaks, (hoping you don't suck a valve..) you might be surprise the life you get out of this motor. Also at that time you might have enough saved to do the job right.
Option 2.. Take a video of the bike, idling. I good clear one with good sound. Post it on Youtube and let some of us here what's it sounds like. Your XR will sound much different than the CR (I am not assuming this is the first time you've been around a 4 stroke, but....) then someone (not me..) with a fine tuned ear can at least have some opinion.
Option 3.. Buy the minimum amount of tools you need to "service" the bike yourself... learn it, love it...live it. Get yourself familiar with the basics.. take the manual wherever you go. Take it into the can, re-read it over coffee in the morning, sit next to your bike and read it..this way you know whats what.. and
1.. take it apart yourself, and ship the head out to OL'89er let him build it, or at least give you some advice on it.. (what's shipping to CA?)
2.. find an independent repair shop, or better yet a machine shop who specializes or has a passion for motorcycles, take the bike there, let them hear it, do a LEAK DOWN test on it.. and go from there, get options.
3.. Don't do the head yourself... if you were going to just do a reseal then go for it, but don't get yourself involved with replacing and reaming guides, cutting seats... if you never did it before you could make a costly mistake.. plus you need to tool up for it, and why not spend some of that on a pro?
Its easy enough to get some clear advice on the bike while its together and running. Then to disassemble is easy, novice work, then take the head back to said pro's and have them look at it again.. quotes and advice are usually free.. if they treat you like an idiot then find someone else.. a good technician will literally take you by the hand and explain what is going on, in a clear and concise unassuming manner. No doubt the service manager was a seasoned pro by the way you were treated, but he is not doing the work, and from experience it sounded like he was sincere in his opinion on what needed to be done, but was only being "told" the facts by a less than qualified tech who jumped the gun and tore your bike down without going through the proper steps first, and above that without your permission. I will stand firm in my opinion that for anything more than routine service work, tires and tubes a dealer is the absolute worst and last place to take a motorcycle, no exceptions.
But... do not be rash and get rid of the bike, then spend more on a new one.. its a great bike, treat her well, fix it right and enjoy it.
The worst thing is the anxiety over wether or not you made the right decision, that leads to wrong decisions.. take a breather, weigh your options, at least get a clear diagnosis on what state the motor is in.. MOST IMPORTANT!!!! that way when you finally decide to get rid of the bike the next owner knows EXACTLY what they are getting themselves into.
I am trained Ferrari mechanic, I've rebuild Ferrari heads, reamed guides and l've cut seats... I build Porsche motors now! I have my own shop specializing in mechanical restorations.. I recently found that my XL500r needs a valve job, and I will probably just shoot it off to my machinist to have him build it right. I trust him... No matter how many motors I do I still have him do the heads, he's tooled for them, and his 40 years experience out way mine 4x....
Its easy for us to tell you to do the work yourself, but.. we don't know you, we don't know your technical ability, how tool friendly you are, how well you can translate written instructions into a physical act. You may be an IT wizkid and the best rider in the world, but a complete disaster with tools.. forums are a great source of advice and inspiration, instruction and guidance, but its just written word, set forth with the assumption that the reader is just like the author. You need to assess the situation and be willing to accept the truth or adapt to fix the problem at hand.
good luck..
Ol'89r
LIFETIME SPONSOR
- Jan 27, 2000
- 6,961
- 45
Patman said:
Can't beat a deal like that. :cool:
I agree. Regardless of who you have do your head work, the XR400 is a rock solid bike. If you rebuild it, you will know what you have and it will last you for many years. If you trade it for something else used, you will be in the same boat not knowing the real condition of your engine.
Take gifthopsduane's advice and LEARN the manual. Read it over and over until you have a good understanding of what is necessary to do the job.
- Dec 26, 1999
- 19,774
- 0
BTW keep in mind I might be the worst person on the face of the earth to take advice from when it comes to the cubic dollar to XR value ratio :laugh:
Oh and if you really want to see what a bent XR valve looks like I'm pretty sure I have a couple in my shop someplace that my son created on an XR80. Actually he created two complete sets of them right Rich? ;)
Oh and if you really want to see what a bent XR valve looks like I'm pretty sure I have a couple in my shop someplace that my son created on an XR80. Actually he created two complete sets of them right Rich? ;)
Patman said:
That boy definitely likes to use the engine as a brake. :whoa:
- Thread starter
- #32
Xr400r
I am not getting rid of the bike. I rode it this summer and had a great time.
The point about a different used bike is very well taken. Why buy into someone elses misery. I hate to say it but buying a used dirtbike is not a winning proposition I would think in most cases.
I agree on the professional work part. I would love to find out the cost to farm it out. I mean if I can do it for $350 myself for rings, piston, valves, springs etc.etc. and guess, or pay the reasonable labor more for a shop to do it and get it back to me. The enjoyment of the bike being done is huge.
I would ove to do it and I am not a tool idiot but I do not want to over estimate my abilities either. I am not affraid to tear it down, I have done basic engine work but the thought of machine work or percise measurements or knowing what to repalce, or missing one thing out of 6 and having to so it all over are a concern that I am trying to be realistic about it.
That is why I asked about the local mechaics or shops in Dallas to get an estiamte/idea on what it would take.
The idea in the video on YouTube is excellent and I am going to do that on Thursday as I am off work and I will post the link.
Here is a precursory lowdown.
Bike is cold...
1) I turn on fuel... and choke
2) I crack the throttle very quickly about 1/4 open and immediately closed
3) I kick it and it start on 2nd or third kick... I mean every time
4) It idles with choke and it makes a little bit of white/gray smoke for about 30 seconds and then stops.
5) I can take it off choke and it idles fine
It rides and seems fine to me and not down on power BUT, I never rode this bike new so I am not sure what new feels like for comparison. I am 6'1" and 255 and it MOVES with me on it.
The only thing I will tell you is that it "ticks" like tick,tick,tick.. and it sounds like a valve. It speeds up and slows down with the RPM perfectly so again I think it is a valve.
Other than that I am not sure and since it may be hitting metal on metal I am not running it too much.
It may just need the valves done..who knows. The mechanic at the dealer says they cannot adjust them. They tried twice and they will not adjust. One one valve it is so tight they can barely get the feeler in there. The reason he recomended the ring,piston and the rest is the fact that it is a 2002 that has been ridden and since they are already in there he said it was no more labor practically to just replace the piston and rings etc.
So there you go... I am going to post up the video.
Thanks guys... I would love to do it but alone, I am a little concerned I may not get it 100% right and I really want to do it and have it done right.
Thanks guys
Doug
I am not getting rid of the bike. I rode it this summer and had a great time.
The point about a different used bike is very well taken. Why buy into someone elses misery. I hate to say it but buying a used dirtbike is not a winning proposition I would think in most cases.
I agree on the professional work part. I would love to find out the cost to farm it out. I mean if I can do it for $350 myself for rings, piston, valves, springs etc.etc. and guess, or pay the reasonable labor more for a shop to do it and get it back to me. The enjoyment of the bike being done is huge.
I would ove to do it and I am not a tool idiot but I do not want to over estimate my abilities either. I am not affraid to tear it down, I have done basic engine work but the thought of machine work or percise measurements or knowing what to repalce, or missing one thing out of 6 and having to so it all over are a concern that I am trying to be realistic about it.
That is why I asked about the local mechaics or shops in Dallas to get an estiamte/idea on what it would take.
The idea in the video on YouTube is excellent and I am going to do that on Thursday as I am off work and I will post the link.
Here is a precursory lowdown.
Bike is cold...
1) I turn on fuel... and choke
2) I crack the throttle very quickly about 1/4 open and immediately closed
3) I kick it and it start on 2nd or third kick... I mean every time
4) It idles with choke and it makes a little bit of white/gray smoke for about 30 seconds and then stops.
5) I can take it off choke and it idles fine
It rides and seems fine to me and not down on power BUT, I never rode this bike new so I am not sure what new feels like for comparison. I am 6'1" and 255 and it MOVES with me on it.
The only thing I will tell you is that it "ticks" like tick,tick,tick.. and it sounds like a valve. It speeds up and slows down with the RPM perfectly so again I think it is a valve.
Other than that I am not sure and since it may be hitting metal on metal I am not running it too much.
It may just need the valves done..who knows. The mechanic at the dealer says they cannot adjust them. They tried twice and they will not adjust. One one valve it is so tight they can barely get the feeler in there. The reason he recomended the ring,piston and the rest is the fact that it is a 2002 that has been ridden and since they are already in there he said it was no more labor practically to just replace the piston and rings etc.
So there you go... I am going to post up the video.
Thanks guys... I would love to do it but alone, I am a little concerned I may not get it 100% right and I really want to do it and have it done right.
Thanks guys
Doug
- Aug 2, 2000
- 13,510
- 19
does the ticking stop after the bike warms up? It does sound like you need a valve adjustment, and I can't believe a 2002 is so far adjusted that there ain't no more you can do . . .
HEre is what you are looking at:
<img src="http://s7d2.scene7.com/is/image/Motosport/XR400R%5E2002%5ECAMSHAFT?$oemlarge$">
#25 is the adjuster to adjust the valve clearances. #26 is the lock nut.
So unless #25 is backed all the way off (very doubtful cause there would not be enough threads to keep it in the rocker), there is adjustment there! PERIOD
Other possibilities is a rod knock or counterbalancer/CB bearing knock.
<img src="http://s7d2.scene7.com/is/image/Motosport/XR400R%5E2002%5ECAMSHAFT?$oemlarge$">
#25 is the adjuster to adjust the valve clearances. #26 is the lock nut.
So unless #25 is backed all the way off (very doubtful cause there would not be enough threads to keep it in the rocker), there is adjustment there! PERIOD
Other possibilities is a rod knock or counterbalancer/CB bearing knock.
gifthopsduane
Member
- Dec 8, 2008
- 11
- 0
Take the video. lets hear it, then adjust the valves yourself, rotate the motor a few revolutions then recheck them, if you are so inclined do it once more, make sure they are correct. Oh.. and do this on a stone cold engine, park it and let it sit overnight. Then run it, this is cheap and will confirm that it is done properly, if there is still doubt pick up a leak down tester off Ebay for cheap and post some #'s.. then should you decide to pop off the head, take clear and detailed pics of any wear to the cam followers and valve stems, cam too. Post them.
Correct me if I'm wrong if he can't get the feeler gauge in there and its too tight then wouldn't this be indicative of a valve seat that has been hammered so far into the head that its had taken up all lash in the adjustment? How could that be? I can come up with too much spring tension, but thats a little far fetched.. The only thing I can come up with is maybe timing chain is loose, stretched? Set screw on the rocker arm buggered and not turning.. mechanic who is failing miserably at his job? Listen we all make mistakes, sometimes so glaringly idiotic that it completely idiotic that it is impossible to understand how it happened at all, maybe this guy is missing something so fundamental to adjusting the valves on your bike that it is presenting itself as a problem in his mind.. and manifested as a serious mechanical issue with your bike..
This is just a theory, adjust them yourself properly, get out a bright flashlight, even a small inspection mirror or dental mirror, look around in there, see if something doesn't look right, is there an external adjustment for the timing chain? Go through all the basics first, before a teardown. Then just jump into if, if all else fails your pay someone to do what you were going to pay anyways, at least this way you know that your not being taken advantage of.
I'm a four stroke newbie, I am i the process of rebuilding the top end of my XL500R that someone has been so kind as to over heat and score the piston, cracked the skirts. Also the cam and rockers are wiped... as I tally up my costs I have.
Cam $80
Rockers, springs $180 (2 of the last 4 Honda has..)
Wiseco psiton and rings $180
Upper end gasket kit $70
I am getting the cylinder bored, and the valve seats cut and lapped... other than that I am doing the work myself.. I should save quite a bit, but still be out $700-$800.. just do give you an idea of costs.. but I traded an old yard tractor for the bike.. 7,000 orig miles, in near perfect shape. The levers aren't even gouged. So I do consider myself lucky..
C
Correct me if I'm wrong if he can't get the feeler gauge in there and its too tight then wouldn't this be indicative of a valve seat that has been hammered so far into the head that its had taken up all lash in the adjustment? How could that be? I can come up with too much spring tension, but thats a little far fetched.. The only thing I can come up with is maybe timing chain is loose, stretched? Set screw on the rocker arm buggered and not turning.. mechanic who is failing miserably at his job? Listen we all make mistakes, sometimes so glaringly idiotic that it completely idiotic that it is impossible to understand how it happened at all, maybe this guy is missing something so fundamental to adjusting the valves on your bike that it is presenting itself as a problem in his mind.. and manifested as a serious mechanical issue with your bike..
This is just a theory, adjust them yourself properly, get out a bright flashlight, even a small inspection mirror or dental mirror, look around in there, see if something doesn't look right, is there an external adjustment for the timing chain? Go through all the basics first, before a teardown. Then just jump into if, if all else fails your pay someone to do what you were going to pay anyways, at least this way you know that your not being taken advantage of.
I'm a four stroke newbie, I am i the process of rebuilding the top end of my XL500R that someone has been so kind as to over heat and score the piston, cracked the skirts. Also the cam and rockers are wiped... as I tally up my costs I have.
Cam $80
Rockers, springs $180 (2 of the last 4 Honda has..)
Wiseco psiton and rings $180
Upper end gasket kit $70
I am getting the cylinder bored, and the valve seats cut and lapped... other than that I am doing the work myself.. I should save quite a bit, but still be out $700-$800.. just do give you an idea of costs.. but I traded an old yard tractor for the bike.. 7,000 orig miles, in near perfect shape. The levers aren't even gouged. So I do consider myself lucky..
C
gifthopsduane said:
If it's true then it's likely to be the face of the valve that has been hammered causing it to recess and close up the running clearance. This is pretty common when valve springs get old and lose seating pressure or when the engine sees a lot of high rpm running and the spring pressure is inadequate for the conditions which causes the valve to bounce off the seat during the valve closing phase. This is more common with Titanium valves but steel valves will do it as well if maintenance is ignored long enough.
When the valve face becomes recessed they end up looking like the one pictured below:
Attachments
Last edited:
- Thread starter
- #37
If that is true then that makes sense. I will deffiantely find out when I tear it down.
I will shoot a lot of pictures. I feel like I am ok with dissasembly and re-assembly becaue I have the manual and I willtake my time. My concern is being able to determine what is worn and what is not...
I will shoot a lot of pictures. I feel like I am ok with dissasembly and re-assembly becaue I have the manual and I willtake my time. My concern is being able to determine what is worn and what is not...
- Thread starter
- #39
Ok - I am getting ready to really do it
Ok,
I am going to do it myself in the gargage.
I have cleaned up pretty much and made room in the garage for the project. I have taken a few shots and will be posting to this thread if that is ok. All of the offers of support and encouragement are great so why not. You have to learn sometime. Here is what have so far.
1. 2002 XR400R , runs great, ticking valves- My goal will be to open up the engine and plan to replace the valves and related components to restore it back to a running, and wel functioning condition.
2. Clean/dry area in my garage with the bike up on a stand.
3. Cleaned off workbench with power, compressor and lighting
4. Full set of hand tools (well anything I am missing I can and will buy)
5. Inch lb and Foot lb torque wrenches
6. Honda official shop manual for my bike
7. Digital camera/ YouTube / Myspace / account to post up videos and pictures.
8. Money saved and in my savings account for parts.
9. Hopefully lots of help fom you guys (virtual unless anyone wants beer and pizza for showing up in Dallas to get in on this at some point over the next feew weeks)
10. ???
Ok I think I need a shopping list-
1. Replacement valves - If there a way that a person with little knowledge of the internals of a bike motor would be able to tell if they are ok and could be re-used, or.. are they cheap enough to just buy 4 new ones to avoid mistakes and mismeasurements and be done with it (I like the whole plug and play concept)
2. Keepers, springs, seals and gaskets... (I stole this right from Patman's post ) - ServiceHonda looks good. Should I go all stock or aftermarket. I could care less about 2 more HP, I think it made fine power as it was. I wold choose rock solid reliability over more power for this application (just saying if preference mattered.... I am looking for reliability)
3. What else am I looking at? I guess I will not know more until I get in there.... hopefully my digial camera is my friend on this one.
4. Name of a reliable machine shop in the Dallas area to do the work if I do not send it off to a list memeber from California who has offered their services for what seems to be a reasonable price.
Let me know... I am putting all of the rest togeather now before I pull bolt 1 and start this.
Thanks guys... I hope this is as sucessful as fun. I figure if I get in way over my head I can just take it somewhere but a lot of people are describing this as not as complicated as I am thinking it might (certianly not an advanced engine like a CRF or newer 4 stroke) and something I problably have a good shot at doing.
Some shots
http://www.flickr.com/photos/22902952@N02/3164937866/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/22902952@N02/3164104591/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/22902952@N02/3164937422/in/photostream/
Ok,
I am going to do it myself in the gargage.
I have cleaned up pretty much and made room in the garage for the project. I have taken a few shots and will be posting to this thread if that is ok. All of the offers of support and encouragement are great so why not. You have to learn sometime. Here is what have so far.
1. 2002 XR400R , runs great, ticking valves- My goal will be to open up the engine and plan to replace the valves and related components to restore it back to a running, and wel functioning condition.
2. Clean/dry area in my garage with the bike up on a stand.
3. Cleaned off workbench with power, compressor and lighting
4. Full set of hand tools (well anything I am missing I can and will buy)
5. Inch lb and Foot lb torque wrenches
6. Honda official shop manual for my bike
7. Digital camera/ YouTube / Myspace / account to post up videos and pictures.
8. Money saved and in my savings account for parts.
9. Hopefully lots of help fom you guys (virtual unless anyone wants beer and pizza for showing up in Dallas to get in on this at some point over the next feew weeks)
10. ???
Ok I think I need a shopping list-
1. Replacement valves - If there a way that a person with little knowledge of the internals of a bike motor would be able to tell if they are ok and could be re-used, or.. are they cheap enough to just buy 4 new ones to avoid mistakes and mismeasurements and be done with it (I like the whole plug and play concept)
2. Keepers, springs, seals and gaskets... (I stole this right from Patman's post ) - ServiceHonda looks good. Should I go all stock or aftermarket. I could care less about 2 more HP, I think it made fine power as it was. I wold choose rock solid reliability over more power for this application (just saying if preference mattered.... I am looking for reliability)
3. What else am I looking at? I guess I will not know more until I get in there.... hopefully my digial camera is my friend on this one.
4. Name of a reliable machine shop in the Dallas area to do the work if I do not send it off to a list memeber from California who has offered their services for what seems to be a reasonable price.
Let me know... I am putting all of the rest togeather now before I pull bolt 1 and start this.
Thanks guys... I hope this is as sucessful as fun. I figure if I get in way over my head I can just take it somewhere but a lot of people are describing this as not as complicated as I am thinking it might (certianly not an advanced engine like a CRF or newer 4 stroke) and something I problably have a good shot at doing.
Some shots
http://www.flickr.com/photos/22902952@N02/3164937866/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/22902952@N02/3164104591/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/22902952@N02/3164937422/in/photostream/
gifthopsduane
Member
- Dec 8, 2008
- 11
- 0
Take it apart already!!!! the suspense is killing me... why is the seat still on?
- Dec 26, 1999
- 19,774
- 0
Just take (the guy in California) up on his offer, there will be ZERO concern of that part of the job being done to an exceptionally high standard.
Don't get all excited and start pulling parts without taking note of how everything comes apart. Slow and steady wins the race.
Start by pulling the seat & tank then give the bike a good cleaning, no need to have old crud falling in the open engine. Also llok hard at things an make sure you break loose any bolts BEFORE removing the part from the engine. Tappet covers come to mind...
Don't get all excited and start pulling parts without taking note of how everything comes apart. Slow and steady wins the race.
Start by pulling the seat & tank then give the bike a good cleaning, no need to have old crud falling in the open engine. Also llok hard at things an make sure you break loose any bolts BEFORE removing the part from the engine. Tappet covers come to mind...
Last edited:
Ol'89r
LIFETIME SPONSOR
- Jan 27, 2000
- 6,961
- 45
Dayum! Don't you have that thing apart yet???? :ohmy:
Looks like you have all of your ducks in a row. :cool:
Sounds to me like you may have a piston slap problem. This is a result of excessive clearance or wear in the cylinder and on the piston. When the piston changes direction, it produces a slap or tick. This can be repaired by replacing the piston and boring the cylinder to the next oversize.
I find it hard to believe that the valves are sunk that badly. If they were, the bike would not have enough compression to start as easily as it does. Plus, a sunk valve results in less tappet clearance, not more. Your engine has steel valves in it. Unless they are completely hammered, they can be resurfaced and safely reused. Chances are, they will not need to be replaced.
When you remove the top end, (Top cover and rockers, cam, head, cylinder and piston) bolt everything back together loosely, and put it in a box, (sturdy box) and take it to your local machine shop or ship it to that guy in California.
The machine shop or the guy in California will measure everything for wear and inspect for damage and will call you with a parts estimate before starting any repairs. Make sure the machine shop that you choose understands this up front.
If the costs to repair are out of line, all you will be out is the cost of shipping or the cost of taking the parts to the machine shop.
Before shipping the parts, take your piston pin and fit it in the small end of the rod. Rotate the crank until the rod it at top dead center and then take both hands on the piston pin and try to move it up and down. If you feel any up and down movement in the pin, you may have a worn small end on the rod or a loose big end on the rod. This will also cause a ticking or knocking noise. If there is any movement in the rod, you will have to rebuild the crank. This requires removing the engine from the frame and splitting the engine cases. A little harder of a job but still not rocket surgery or nuthin'.
If you choose the guy in California, please allow about 3 weeks plus shipping time since he is very, very, busy right now with the start of the new season. ;)
Looks like you have all of your ducks in a row. :cool:
Sounds to me like you may have a piston slap problem. This is a result of excessive clearance or wear in the cylinder and on the piston. When the piston changes direction, it produces a slap or tick. This can be repaired by replacing the piston and boring the cylinder to the next oversize.
I find it hard to believe that the valves are sunk that badly. If they were, the bike would not have enough compression to start as easily as it does. Plus, a sunk valve results in less tappet clearance, not more. Your engine has steel valves in it. Unless they are completely hammered, they can be resurfaced and safely reused. Chances are, they will not need to be replaced.
When you remove the top end, (Top cover and rockers, cam, head, cylinder and piston) bolt everything back together loosely, and put it in a box, (sturdy box) and take it to your local machine shop or ship it to that guy in California.
The machine shop or the guy in California will measure everything for wear and inspect for damage and will call you with a parts estimate before starting any repairs. Make sure the machine shop that you choose understands this up front.
If the costs to repair are out of line, all you will be out is the cost of shipping or the cost of taking the parts to the machine shop.
Before shipping the parts, take your piston pin and fit it in the small end of the rod. Rotate the crank until the rod it at top dead center and then take both hands on the piston pin and try to move it up and down. If you feel any up and down movement in the pin, you may have a worn small end on the rod or a loose big end on the rod. This will also cause a ticking or knocking noise. If there is any movement in the rod, you will have to rebuild the crank. This requires removing the engine from the frame and splitting the engine cases. A little harder of a job but still not rocket surgery or nuthin'.
If you choose the guy in California, please allow about 3 weeks plus shipping time since he is very, very, busy right now with the start of the new season. ;)
- Thread starter
- #46
How is it going.... I believe it is fixed
Well,
Lessons learned.... I think
1) the delaer is not your friend, at least not this one
2) When I panic I make stupid decisions and this time I stayed calm.
3) Find a trustworthy local mechanic unless you are already well versed on your bike (I am not and luckily did, I think)
I got a name from a local parts shop here in Dallas. The shop has been here since I was a boy and I remember getting my first helmet there about 25 years ago.
they recomended a local guy who is a semi-retired guy with a shop and he was a certified Yamaha Tech for like 20 something years etc etc.
I took the bike to him and he said he would look at it. He did and after one day he called me back and said... (I will paraphrase because he was nice and spoke slowly but I am still not 100% sure on much of this)
"Doug, the valves are all adjusted incorrectly and are way, way off spec. I put them back in spec and it does not tick but it will only start about 40% of the time and when it does it is ok but still not running right. Let me work on it a bit more and I will open the top cover and see what is going on"
He called me a day later (today oddly and said)
"Doug, I pulled the top cover and I found what I think is wrong. This bike has been open before, and it appears the cam has been removed and replaced. When they did there is a "cam" on the end of the cam shaf that helps lift one of the valves slightly so it is easier to start. I looked at it and noticed it was burred a little bit and it may have been sticking. So when I looked at your servic manual you left me I also noticed that it was on backward (the cam on the end to aid in starting). I pulled it, sanded the little bur and put it back togeather correctly and then adjusted it all again and closed it up. I cleaned your pilot jet as it was very clogged and after cleaning the pilot jet, adjusting the carb on the gas analyzer the bike starts on the first kick every time and I have started it 10-15 times over the past 3-4 hours, sometimes hot and sometimes letting it cool (not hard it is pretty cool today). He said the valves look fine and that it has a ton of compression and it was acting that way because it was holding the one valve up a little like it was starting and also you could tell because it wore a little spot on one of the rockers. He said he rode the bike today and it is VERY strong and he has no problems with it at all running, on idle or wide open."
He says nothing else is required. While he was at it he asked if I wanted some other basic stuff done (like my throttle was a little sticky so he lubes the push pull cables etc and changed the brkae fluid in my front and rear brake since he had it. He charged me 4 hours of labor at $80 and hour for everything and a little bit for brake fluid and some other misc parts. He was kind and did not openly bag on the dealer but commented they are not really bike mechanics all of the time and are just shop guys that work on only newer bikes but that can vary from person to person. He said he got a lot of his work from other shops who cannot resolve problems that are mor complicated than some basic stuff.
He says the bike is great and ther is no reason to spend another penny on it. Stop belly aching and go ride.
So, completely serviced out and cam issue resolved.. I am about $400 or so in labor and parts for everything and he says I should love the bike..way easier to start and should run much stronger now.
I hope this is all correct.... we will see soon.
I am leaving the office to pick it up now.
I will let you know
Doug
Well,
Lessons learned.... I think
1) the delaer is not your friend, at least not this one
2) When I panic I make stupid decisions and this time I stayed calm.
3) Find a trustworthy local mechanic unless you are already well versed on your bike (I am not and luckily did, I think)
I got a name from a local parts shop here in Dallas. The shop has been here since I was a boy and I remember getting my first helmet there about 25 years ago.
they recomended a local guy who is a semi-retired guy with a shop and he was a certified Yamaha Tech for like 20 something years etc etc.
I took the bike to him and he said he would look at it. He did and after one day he called me back and said... (I will paraphrase because he was nice and spoke slowly but I am still not 100% sure on much of this)
"Doug, the valves are all adjusted incorrectly and are way, way off spec. I put them back in spec and it does not tick but it will only start about 40% of the time and when it does it is ok but still not running right. Let me work on it a bit more and I will open the top cover and see what is going on"
He called me a day later (today oddly and said)
"Doug, I pulled the top cover and I found what I think is wrong. This bike has been open before, and it appears the cam has been removed and replaced. When they did there is a "cam" on the end of the cam shaf that helps lift one of the valves slightly so it is easier to start. I looked at it and noticed it was burred a little bit and it may have been sticking. So when I looked at your servic manual you left me I also noticed that it was on backward (the cam on the end to aid in starting). I pulled it, sanded the little bur and put it back togeather correctly and then adjusted it all again and closed it up. I cleaned your pilot jet as it was very clogged and after cleaning the pilot jet, adjusting the carb on the gas analyzer the bike starts on the first kick every time and I have started it 10-15 times over the past 3-4 hours, sometimes hot and sometimes letting it cool (not hard it is pretty cool today). He said the valves look fine and that it has a ton of compression and it was acting that way because it was holding the one valve up a little like it was starting and also you could tell because it wore a little spot on one of the rockers. He said he rode the bike today and it is VERY strong and he has no problems with it at all running, on idle or wide open."
He says nothing else is required. While he was at it he asked if I wanted some other basic stuff done (like my throttle was a little sticky so he lubes the push pull cables etc and changed the brkae fluid in my front and rear brake since he had it. He charged me 4 hours of labor at $80 and hour for everything and a little bit for brake fluid and some other misc parts. He was kind and did not openly bag on the dealer but commented they are not really bike mechanics all of the time and are just shop guys that work on only newer bikes but that can vary from person to person. He said he got a lot of his work from other shops who cannot resolve problems that are mor complicated than some basic stuff.
He says the bike is great and ther is no reason to spend another penny on it. Stop belly aching and go ride.
So, completely serviced out and cam issue resolved.. I am about $400 or so in labor and parts for everything and he says I should love the bike..way easier to start and should run much stronger now.
I hope this is all correct.... we will see soon.
I am leaving the office to pick it up now.
I will let you know
Doug
- Aug 2, 2000
- 13,510
- 19
Doug, you lucky son of a biscuit!
400 bucks ain't bad. gotta love those auto-decompressors making it easier to start ;)
Now ride the wheels off the sucker and enjoy
400 bucks ain't bad. gotta love those auto-decompressors making it easier to start ;)
Now ride the wheels off the sucker and enjoy
- Thread starter
- #49
I got it back, I am very happy...
Well,
It seems perfect...
It starts really easy (I love this Mikuni Pumper Carb)...
It runs great and has zero ticking (Mechanic says valves are now perfect) I have just rode it in the parking lot (it was late and in a semi residential neighborhood so I did not want to really tear it up) but it feels strong...we will see about power when I get it back to the park this weekend.
Carb has cleaned jets and is jetted correctly (says it was pretty close before and it just needed to be cleaned a bit, I gave him a complete rebuild kit that he says it did not need and gave right back to me in the package). He put it on the exhaust gas analyzer and says it runs as it should now.
I shut it down and started it back up a few times and it started perfectly every time.
I am really happy it was not worse...
To everyone on the advice and the offer of work on the bike I sincerely appreciate the support, info and offers for work. I am happy I found someone local with a good reputation. I will certainly add to that reputation. He did exactly what he said and oddly he did it in TWO DAYS! (he only works part time in winter, he is semi-retired, many others quoted a much longer time). I am not sure it is appropriate to mention names of shops here so I will not but if you are interested to know or need the name of a reputable shop in the Dallas Texas area, let me know I will gladly give you his number and information.
Who wants to ride? :ride:
See you soon.... hopefully throwing a roost
Well,
It seems perfect...
It starts really easy (I love this Mikuni Pumper Carb)...
It runs great and has zero ticking (Mechanic says valves are now perfect) I have just rode it in the parking lot (it was late and in a semi residential neighborhood so I did not want to really tear it up) but it feels strong...we will see about power when I get it back to the park this weekend.
Carb has cleaned jets and is jetted correctly (says it was pretty close before and it just needed to be cleaned a bit, I gave him a complete rebuild kit that he says it did not need and gave right back to me in the package). He put it on the exhaust gas analyzer and says it runs as it should now.
I shut it down and started it back up a few times and it started perfectly every time.
I am really happy it was not worse...
To everyone on the advice and the offer of work on the bike I sincerely appreciate the support, info and offers for work. I am happy I found someone local with a good reputation. I will certainly add to that reputation. He did exactly what he said and oddly he did it in TWO DAYS! (he only works part time in winter, he is semi-retired, many others quoted a much longer time). I am not sure it is appropriate to mention names of shops here so I will not but if you are interested to know or need the name of a reputable shop in the Dallas Texas area, let me know I will gladly give you his number and information.
Who wants to ride? :ride:
See you soon.... hopefully throwing a roost
