I purchased a 03 KDX220 in Sept. and I'm getting ready to do what I learned is the first basic upgrade, and that is change pipes. I have been reading past comments on the 200's and it seems pretty clear the differences between the Gnarly desert and the Gnarly woods. But, I went into the justKDX site and now I'm confused on the 220. In the hop up section it states that the rev pipe acts like a torque pipe on the 220 because of port timing. However in the comparison section, 200 vs. 220 it states that the rev pipe on the 220 has a considerable loss of bottom end. Can someone help me here? By the way I love this bike. Go KDX!!
A little confused on new pipe for KDX220?
- Thread starter ahkdx
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- Nov 19, 2002
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i jave the PC on my 200 and ride like a 250! just what I wanted. its awesome, and pulls great (imo) once the jetting is correct.
The stock pipe signs off REAL early on the 220. The bike works best if ridden like a thumper with stock pipe. With the KG30 pipe (Desert, REV) the bike has a chance to rev out a little farther and pull harder from a harder mid hit on through. Because there just ain't any of that on the stocker it leaves the "seat-o-the-pants" feel that bottom end is lost. It's really not, the bike just has more of a midrange hit and revs out better so the slow-mellow-lugging bottom feel for the bike is missing some what. I hope this helps you figure it out.
canyncarvr
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- Oct 14, 1999
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Please post the comments from CDave's site that you are referring to.
This is what I read from Canadian Dave:
ENGINE MODIFICATION – GETTING THE MOST OUT OF 200/220 cc
1995 - 2003 KDX200/ 1997 to 2003 KDX220
(Notice this is for BOTH sizes of kdx)
If you are looking for more bottom end to mid range power then I would suggest the FMF Torque pipe. Model K-G35
If a stronger mid range to top end is what you’re after then either the FMF Rev pipe (model K-G30) or the Pro Circuit pipe (model PK95200DP) are excellent choices.
When selecting a pipe it is important to remember where you would like the most power focused. A torque pipe will steal a little top end power in trade for improved bottom end performance. The reverse is true for a rev pipe. A torque pipe will allow the KDX to pull hard off the bottom with a less abrupt mid range hit than the rev pipe. The rev pipe gives up some bottom end power and has a more abrupt, authoritative midrange hit and more top end power. Either pipe will make more power everywhere when compared to the stock pipe.
Its important to note that because of differences in port timing the KDX200 and 220 don't react the same to each pipe.
Installing a Torque pipe on a KDX200 will improve performance over the stock pipe from idle to wide open throttle. However installing a torque pipe on a KDX220 will improve performance from idle to about 7500 rpm then fall flat just like the stock pipe with no meaningful increase in over rev or higher rpm performance.
If you're looking to improve your 220's power delivery from the bottom to top end then a rev pipe is a must.
He does NOT say the '..rev pipe acts like a torque pipe.'
He DOES reference advertising that says that, but he doesn't. It's that the -30 improves the 220 all-round that gets it the 'torque' monicker in some ads.
But the rev pipe does NOT act 'like a torque pipe.'
Guess I said that already.
Maybe I'm the one missing something. I read what CDave says and it makes perfect sense to me...evidently not the 'perfect sense' others get from it.
How's that? All better?
This is what I read from Canadian Dave:
ENGINE MODIFICATION – GETTING THE MOST OUT OF 200/220 cc
1995 - 2003 KDX200/ 1997 to 2003 KDX220
(Notice this is for BOTH sizes of kdx)
If you are looking for more bottom end to mid range power then I would suggest the FMF Torque pipe. Model K-G35
If a stronger mid range to top end is what you’re after then either the FMF Rev pipe (model K-G30) or the Pro Circuit pipe (model PK95200DP) are excellent choices.
When selecting a pipe it is important to remember where you would like the most power focused. A torque pipe will steal a little top end power in trade for improved bottom end performance. The reverse is true for a rev pipe. A torque pipe will allow the KDX to pull hard off the bottom with a less abrupt mid range hit than the rev pipe. The rev pipe gives up some bottom end power and has a more abrupt, authoritative midrange hit and more top end power. Either pipe will make more power everywhere when compared to the stock pipe.
Its important to note that because of differences in port timing the KDX200 and 220 don't react the same to each pipe.
Installing a Torque pipe on a KDX200 will improve performance over the stock pipe from idle to wide open throttle. However installing a torque pipe on a KDX220 will improve performance from idle to about 7500 rpm then fall flat just like the stock pipe with no meaningful increase in over rev or higher rpm performance.
If you're looking to improve your 220's power delivery from the bottom to top end then a rev pipe is a must.
He does NOT say the '..rev pipe acts like a torque pipe.'
He DOES reference advertising that says that, but he doesn't. It's that the -30 improves the 220 all-round that gets it the 'torque' monicker in some ads.
But the rev pipe does NOT act 'like a torque pipe.'
Guess I said that already.
Maybe I'm the one missing something. I read what CDave says and it makes perfect sense to me...evidently not the 'perfect sense' others get from it.
How's that? All better?
Last edited:
john_bilbrey
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- Mar 22, 2003
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Maybe I can help here. I just put a Gnarly Rev (-30) on my '03 220. It really ran out of wind in stock form up top. Now, you really notice the mid and top-it'll rev out quite a bit more now. With only one ride on the new pipe, I can't say that I lost anything on the bottom, it's just that the mid and top are much more pronounced now. There is a mild hit in the middle and it pulls strong all the way through to the top (which is a lot higher than before). The bottom pull is still strong, although I would not consider it "tractor-like" anymore. I am having to readjust my riding style to get used to it. Far and away the best mod so far (next to jetting it properly of course!).
john_bilbrey
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- Mar 22, 2003
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EDIT: Should read Gnarly Desert (-30)...
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- #8
Thanks everyone for your input.
I did understand that some shops advertize it that way and that Dave himself was not saying it. What I thought was a little confusing was the article by Dave where he states, exactly what you have written, "However installing a torque pipe on a KDX220 will improve performance from idle to about 7500 rpm then fall flat just like the stock pipe with no meaningful increase in over rev or higher rpm performance.
If you're looking to improve your 220's power delivery from the bottom to top end then a rev pipe is a must."
But then in the comparison article by MnKDX'er it stated "220 w/ torque pipe, stock carb, and aftermarket silencer- Nice power increase across the powerband similar to the 200, however the 220 still does not turn the revs that a 200 will spin happily............220 (w/ bored carb, Reeds, and aftermarket silencer) Rev pipe, vs. Torque pipe- Comparing the rev pipe to the torque pipe, on this bike shows the rev pipe with a definite loss of low end power and a small increase in top end power."
You're right, I'm probably just not understanding, I just didn't feel they were saying the same they and wanted some opinions from some others. Thanks again for everyone's input.
canyncarvr said:
I did understand that some shops advertize it that way and that Dave himself was not saying it. What I thought was a little confusing was the article by Dave where he states, exactly what you have written, "However installing a torque pipe on a KDX220 will improve performance from idle to about 7500 rpm then fall flat just like the stock pipe with no meaningful increase in over rev or higher rpm performance.
If you're looking to improve your 220's power delivery from the bottom to top end then a rev pipe is a must."
But then in the comparison article by MnKDX'er it stated "220 w/ torque pipe, stock carb, and aftermarket silencer- Nice power increase across the powerband similar to the 200, however the 220 still does not turn the revs that a 200 will spin happily............220 (w/ bored carb, Reeds, and aftermarket silencer) Rev pipe, vs. Torque pipe- Comparing the rev pipe to the torque pipe, on this bike shows the rev pipe with a definite loss of low end power and a small increase in top end power."
You're right, I'm probably just not understanding, I just didn't feel they were saying the same they and wanted some opinions from some others. Thanks again for everyone's input.
I had the woods pipe and now I have the rev pipe on my 220. I like the rev pipe alot better, cause the bike revs alot quicker through the entire powerband with no noticable loss in bottom power. But most importantly, now the bike has some top end power whereas with the woods pipe it would fall flat on top....get the rev pipe...good luck with it.
GREENHORNET
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- Jan 20, 2003
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Hummm...........
Sounds like its more fun to run with the Rev pipe, i'll have to put it on.
Oh, and one more thing how is that rev pipe going to act with a RB bored carb,and FMF Q s/a?
Sounds like its more fun to run with the Rev pipe, i'll have to put it on.
Oh, and one more thing how is that rev pipe going to act with a RB bored carb,and FMF Q s/a?
canyncarvr
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- Oct 14, 1999
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How about this...both pipes work the same way on both bikes. The -30 is a rev profile and as the name indicates this pipe puts the 'better' part of operating in the higher rpm ranges.
The -35 is a torque profile and as the name indicates this pipe puts the 'better' part of operating in the low-to-mid rpm ranges.
Compare the way the two pipes work between the two bikes (200/220) and you will find the above still applies, but you have to take into account the other differences between the bikes that make a huge difference in performance.
There is no way you are going to get the same performance from a 33mm carb as you will a 35mm carb.....notwithstanding the fact that the port timing between the two bikes is completely different.
It is generally considered true that while either pipe (rev/torque) is a huge bolt-on performance enhancer, the rev pipe will give up some bottom end response compared to the torque pipe on either bike.
That is a point of view generally profferred before the availability of tension-adjustable reed cages. The advent of such reed systems (the DFII) blurs that distinction to some extent.
Take a look at the riding you do....choose the pipe that fits.
If your 'type' of riding includes both wide-open desert riding AND close single track stuff, buy one of each!
Works for me!
The -35 is a torque profile and as the name indicates this pipe puts the 'better' part of operating in the low-to-mid rpm ranges.
Compare the way the two pipes work between the two bikes (200/220) and you will find the above still applies, but you have to take into account the other differences between the bikes that make a huge difference in performance.
There is no way you are going to get the same performance from a 33mm carb as you will a 35mm carb.....notwithstanding the fact that the port timing between the two bikes is completely different.
It is generally considered true that while either pipe (rev/torque) is a huge bolt-on performance enhancer, the rev pipe will give up some bottom end response compared to the torque pipe on either bike.
That is a point of view generally profferred before the availability of tension-adjustable reed cages. The advent of such reed systems (the DFII) blurs that distinction to some extent.
Take a look at the riding you do....choose the pipe that fits.
If your 'type' of riding includes both wide-open desert riding AND close single track stuff, buy one of each!
Works for me!
GREENHORNET
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- Jan 20, 2003
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Can't wait untill summer :eek: I'm kinda getting sick of the snow around here. Hope that rev pipe turns out good, i'll be looking foward to using it.
I have an '04 220 and just installed the Gnarly Desert and Turbine Core2. With one ride I noticed a big loss in low end perfromance and a bit more mid to high go, but not as much as I expected! Hmmm, I like the low end power in the deep woods...may consider yet another swap.
canyncarvr
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- Oct 14, 1999
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Consider: 'I like the rev pipe alot better, cause the bike revs alot quicker through the entire powerband with no noticable loss in bottom power.'
Your situation isn't generally the way things work out. While the bike may indeed run with a considerably poorly jetted carb, it won't run as well as it should. You have changed yours........how? I'm not asking soas to say yea or nay, just curious to what extent you have changed it at all.
The rev pipe is the common choice for the 220 because that bike is hi-end impaired. That doesn't mean noone EVER uses the torque on the 220. If it's low end you want and more of it, the torque (-35) is the way to go.
This is old hat, but you won't get much of any topend out of a 220 with its 33mm carb and conservative port timing.
That said, my 200 has a perfect bottom end...response and pull. That's due to the way it's jetted and modified to suit a particular purpose (riding in 'da woods).
Jetting is a big deal.
Your situation isn't generally the way things work out. While the bike may indeed run with a considerably poorly jetted carb, it won't run as well as it should. You have changed yours........how? I'm not asking soas to say yea or nay, just curious to what extent you have changed it at all.
The rev pipe is the common choice for the 220 because that bike is hi-end impaired. That doesn't mean noone EVER uses the torque on the 220. If it's low end you want and more of it, the torque (-35) is the way to go.
This is old hat, but you won't get much of any topend out of a 220 with its 33mm carb and conservative port timing.
That said, my 200 has a perfect bottom end...response and pull. That's due to the way it's jetted and modified to suit a particular purpose (riding in 'da woods).
Jetting is a big deal.
CC's response is right on. I have an '01 220 that I rode pretty much stock last summer, with the exception of opening up the air filter lid and working on getting it jetted properly. There are significant improvements to be had by simply jetting properly, but you have to spend the time doing it to see what happens. I just bought a dynoport "torque" pipe. I spoke with the folks at dynoport and pro circuit, who both told me that the power band will be expanded into the upper revs somewhat with an aftermarket torque pipe, but you will never get what you would with a rev pipe.
For me I bought the torque pipe because I spend alot of time in the tight woods with my kids. For the moment I'm still waiting for the kids to catch up to me so the torque pipe, I think, is a good choice. I'll ride with the torque pipe for now and my plan is go with DF II reeds next, I think that will stretch the powerband a little more.
I think the pipe you choose has to be the one that will work for you.
For me I bought the torque pipe because I spend alot of time in the tight woods with my kids. For the moment I'm still waiting for the kids to catch up to me so the torque pipe, I think, is a good choice. I'll ride with the torque pipe for now and my plan is go with DF II reeds next, I think that will stretch the powerband a little more.
I think the pipe you choose has to be the one that will work for you.
Just to add something from the 200 persepective. I've found that the Desert pipe adds a pronounced hook in the powerband, and can be somewhat challenging to handle depending on the situation. It's definitely more fun to roost around on, but when you're trying to pick your way up a rocky hill it can be a bit challenging to regain momentum. In comparison, the Woods pipe seems to be able to pick itself up in those situations without requiring so much clutch work.
I think rider skill level is an equally important part of the decision. I had the Desert pipe on for part of last summer, but sometimes it seemed to get me into more trouble than it got me out of. I put the Woods pipe back on for now. (For reference, I'm a mid-pack C rider). However, I can see the day coming soon when I'll want the Desert pipe again, as the skill level is finally getting to a point where I can begin to use most of what it has to offer.
I think rider skill level is an equally important part of the decision. I had the Desert pipe on for part of last summer, but sometimes it seemed to get me into more trouble than it got me out of. I put the Woods pipe back on for now. (For reference, I'm a mid-pack C rider). However, I can see the day coming soon when I'll want the Desert pipe again, as the skill level is finally getting to a point where I can begin to use most of what it has to offer.
canyncarvr
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- Oct 14, 1999
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Did someone say jetting?
With a 'C' needle and the -30 pipe, the 200 can be a handful. You'll need to stop often to screw your arms back on...and put summore tie-wraps back on your busted rear fender.
BUT...with an rb-designs massaged carb, a DEK needle and the airscrew out somewheres around 2.5/3 (no, the pilot is not too big) you won't get that huge hit..just a strong, even pull.
A BEM or so will tone the thing down a whole lot, too!
With a 'C' needle and the -30 pipe, the 200 can be a handful. You'll need to stop often to screw your arms back on...and put summore tie-wraps back on your busted rear fender.
BUT...with an rb-designs massaged carb, a DEK needle and the airscrew out somewheres around 2.5/3 (no, the pilot is not too big) you won't get that huge hit..just a strong, even pull.
A BEM or so will tone the thing down a whole lot, too!
