Are we killing our own sport?

[JPIVEY]

May have a lot to do with the revenue generated, nascar is big bucks, lots of money is generated, but believe me, if the home owners complain loud enough, they will look for another venue, just as they did Riverside Raceway back in the 80's

 

[motometal]

Just thought i'd throw in a bit about the technical aspects here, and what we are up against. Those who don't want any more 2 vs. four comparisons may as well skip this post instead of reading it and complaining...i'm not bashing four strokes here, just explaining some of the "whys".

The situation with exhaust on a four stroke is totally different than a two stroke. Here's why:

On a two stroke, the exhaust is going into an expansion chamber, which greatly slows down the velocity of the gasses, and acts sort of like a "capacitor" in an electrical circuit. Have you ever noticed how the exhaust pulses aren't that strong, yet on a four stroke you can feel the pulse way far back? That's why. So, the stinger just acts as sort of a bleed hole for the exhaust to come out, and yes there is a pulse but it is dampened by the expansion chamber. Another interesting aspect is that in certain situations, a smaller diameter stinger, in other words restricting the exhaust, produces more power...and not just at low rpms. If you look closely at an SST pipe, chances are that you will find that the diameter is slightly smaller. At some point, the piston gets hot and goes poof so there are limits here. A typical silencer doesn't really put much if any restriction on the motor. The "shorty" silencers that are quite popular normally just move the powerband around a bit, "rob peter to pay paul" but the idea that you are "uncorking" some huge cache of horsepower that the factory forgot about is silly.

I think they have known how to make quiet two strokes forever...they just didn't care. Really, it's easy.

Four strokes have essentially a straight section of pipe all the way back, so velocity is maintained. The momentum of these gasses actually helps pull as much exhaust as possible out of the cylinder, which is related to why the diameter of the pipe will change power characteristics. Note that we aren't trying to blow "good" charge back into the cylinder at the last second using reflected waves, like with the two stroke. Also, consider that in a given class the four is going to be larger displacement, and generally bigger is louder. And, a muffler needs to be bigger (and heavier) to be effective. If you are riding a bike that feels heavier than the two stroke that you rode last year, the last thing you want to do is add weight to it, and yes some of that is psycological but this is the perception/thought process. So we are up against higher velocity, more gasses to expell, and a heavier muffler.

Beyond that, my expertise of four stroke exhaust design is limited, maybe someone can add to this. I think there is an effect related to cooling of the gasses as well, but not sure. The headpipe on a modern four stroke will sometimes glow if you ride hard, don't remember the twos doing that but not sure if hotter gasses means louder exhaust.

 

[XRpredator]

I think what he's saying is that 2-strokes are inherintly easier to make quiet. But I think a 4-stroke can be made quiet as well, I just hope the mfr's can do it and keep it light.

and inexpensive

 

[kelsorat]

AMA District 37 enduro officials have instituted sound checks for at least 2 years. 2006 was the first year that D37 desert races have started sound testing to get the racers used to the procedure. I believe officials only check a third of the desert participants, but at least the procedure is in place.
We have an event every year that is really popular because of its close proximity to civilization. Standing in line for sound check, I noticed alot of bikes failing, and I bet every one of them were casual riders, who just ride this one event every year(District riders are easy to spot because of sticker on their front number plate).
I'm not for enforcing sound restrictions, but I'm of the opinion that if the manufactures don't dump loud pipes, sound levels will never drop.

 

[motometal]

I think what he's saying is that 2-strokes are inherintly easier to make quiet. But I think a 4-stroke can be made quiet as well, I just hope the mfr's can do it and keep it light.

and inexpensive

was it really that confusing? It would have been worse but I got tired of typing.

 

[motometal]

Here's my imaginary breakdown of the folks at 100 houses close enough to hear the bikes at an imaginary riding area:

4- motorcyclists and either like the sound or don't care
1- motorcyclist who is annoyed but won't complain
25- know exactly what the noise is but are just happy we are having fun
3-hearing impaired
2-think it's really bad music next door-probably satanic
20-hear it and know what it is but don't care as long as it isn't too often or during sleeping hours
5-don't like it but won't complain because they feel sorry for us since we can't affoard Harleys and have to "settle" for plastic, foreign dirt bikes
5-hate it and want to complain, but figure we are associated with the H ells Angels and fear they may get whacked as part of new member initiation if they complain
10-dislike it but just aren't the type to do anything about it
5-intend to complain but keep putting it off
19-hate it but figure they don't have the right to complain since it was there before they were
1-is only mildly bothered on occasion, and just moved into the neighborhood (the track was there 20 years before he was) but mentions it to his Thursday afternoon golfing buddy, who happens to be on the council/board/etc.

guess what? because of that "1" guy, we just lost our imaginary riding area!

 

[2-Strokes 4-ever]

And..........as soon as the "1" complains and makes it public, the other 39 jump in too.

 

[john3_16]

Mirch Payton, Roger Decoster, and most pro mechanics (magazine poll) all dislike the move to 4 strokes...

It's happening because of EPA stuff...Now the sound of 4 strokes has become another EPA issue...This is a gov. engineered phase out of the two stroke...If you still think there are no gov. regulations on consumer goods then you're living in a dream world...The move to ethanol...Gov. regs....Cars must meet CAFE standards gas mileage ect ect another EPA reg....Tax breaks for driving hybrids ect ect...Gov. regulations...

 

[Vic]

If you still think there are no gov. regulations on consumer goods then you're living in a dream world...

I thought we were the government. :ohmy:



:rotfl:

 

[BADASSKX666]

understandable

Its Obvious That We Have To Tone The Bikes Down A Little But You Guys Have To Understand That Kids These Days Ride With There Frends And To Them The Louder Your Bike Is The Cooler You Are Im A Younger Rider Myself And Its Easy To See Whats Going On. Most Four Strokes Were Made To Be Enviornment-friendly Atv's Compared To The 2 Stroke Smog Clouds. To Be Honest With You Four Strokes Are A Cleaner Running Bike But They Piss The Epo's Off Just As Much Because They Are Getting Louder And Louder, They Are Starting To Make Two Strokes Sound Like ***** Bikes.
Something Has To Be Done, But Most People Dont Realize This Until Its Too Late.

 

[aaron7e7]

In my area we dont have a big issue with loud bikes..but i have been around them.. and you guys are right, it will kill this sport.. so here is my two cents...... If everyone here that wants these manufacturers to make quieter stuff, then write them letters, or call them...im sure if everyone would say something to these guys then they will chance to make their customers happy, as well as everyone else that has to live with us riding. so if everyone stopped complaining and started doing something about it then something might get changed. I dunno, maybe its just me that feels this way

 

[motometal]

I don't think most people realize how much sound carries. I just went on a trip to Canada to a fishing resort, which is basically out in the middle of no where. I had my XR and my relatives had utility ATVs with stock exhaust and a KX85 with stock exhaust, which is relatively quiet. They were riding in a sand pit at least 1/2 mile away, I could hear that KX way out in the lake, and also inside the cabin, like it was right next door. It didn't really bother me, but I was actually surprised they didn't say anything about it...after all it is a fishing resort and folks go there to "get away", and really shouldn't have to listen to things like that. It would have been much worse with a larger bike and aftermarket exhaust.

My point is simply that many times the person operating the machine has no idea how many people can hear them, even in a remote area.

 

[Ol'89r]

I doubt there will ever come a time when you can't ride Mike and while they may be taking some areas, it really hasn't effected my family because there is a whole lot of desert out west. If I wanted a bike that sounded like a Hoover I would have purchased one but I didn't. Now, I have seen or heard of areas being closed because of environmental issues but I have yet to hear of an area that was closed due to sound. There may be some private closed course that got closed because of issues with neighbors but an open public area like BLM land or a forest, please tell me where sound alone has been the mitigating factor which closed the area to riding.
Dirty Di

The time has come. How about all of Riverside County Di.

NOW, do you see what that attitude will get us? :|

Some of you people had better wake up to what is going on while you still have a few places to ride. Dirty Di's attitude is exactly what is costing us our riding areas. And that includes the desert.

And motometal is correct. It only takes one person to talk to the right City or County council member to get an area or entire county shut down. In the case of Riverside county it was a lady who was knocked down by a couple of riders and complained directly to Supervisor Buster. This was after many of us attended multiple boreing meetings with the planning commission over the time span of one year. When it went to the Supervisors, they voted it down.

I would much rather ride a bike that sounds like a Hoover than not ride at all.

And Racerdude.

I'm a long time dirt track tuner and racer and I can name several race tracks that were shut down due to noise.

Sorry, but none of these arguments for loud bikes fly with me. Get a clue before it's too late.

Ol'89r

 

[kamchuka]

i agree, i work on a few of my friends bikes, which inevitably turns into there friends and so on. i've been in the woods for a shy 30 years now, and nothing bothers me more than these beer drinking gear heads that think noise translates into power.
let me say i enjoy beer and power :) hell i've been in trouble enjoying them at the same time (not dui) but these guys you see with the pipe off doing wheelies in the parking lot with no helmet and a bottle of jack in one hand piss me off.
i'll be cursed im sure for my words, but whatever.
by the way, i got my first county complaint for my track in my yard last week. my kids ride bone stock small fours, and my rm is set for the woods with the quitest pipe i could find, 93 bds last time. so i'll say, with risk of putting my foot in my mouth, i dont think well ever please em all.

 

[JWW]

Some people can barly afford the bike never mind the aftermarket pipe..Plus this sport will never die, the companys can always come out with bigger and better things. Plus its not the sound that im worried about for the tracks, its the the building on riding land that i would be worried about.

1- They should only ride where designated or buy a properly equipped bike

2- The sport on its own wouldnt die but us ride loud clapped out bikes will force it to die or limit it so severly that its no longer fun. The companys need to come out with the bigger and better stuff now.

3- You should worry about the sound around tracks. A couple years ago they did a trial run with a mx track in the middle of a horse racing track at our local fairgrounds. It had alot of support and even sound tested bikes before letting them in. With all that they still were closed down because of noise.

 

[weimedog]

I can't help but chime in a little.

We hosted two AGP's this year. They are two day events...Bikes day one and Quads day two.

After BOTH events, my neighbors around the area;...even the nay sayers said Saturday was hardly an issue..they hardly heard the bikes. Sunday on the other hand was different. The neighbors objections to our second race that got a little politically ugly were about the Sunday event on the first race. Primarily four stroke quads.

Now understand I have learned to appreciate the Quads and as I wrote in the "Quad Revelation" Post in the "Off Topics" Forum, that the Quad racers especially Chris Borich made a very positive impression on ALL that came in contact with them.

The one thing that might keep us from being able to host another race here was the neighbors complaining about our SUNDAY events..(Not the Saturday events!!) This is Imperical data for anyone who might want to understand what we are up against as a sport.

If I can prove the Quads will be as quiet next year as the Bikes...the Town will welcome our race with open arms. How do I do that???

Suggestions please.

We really enjoyed the Quads.

As I posted in another forum there is an awsome helmut cam of the first Quad Race at out place....(www.thequadbuilder.com)

(weimes aren't "muts" but we can't spell worth a damn!)

My thing is this:

Motorcycles have LESS space to work exhaust issues around. They are narrow and no one wants a burned leg. Quads have SO much more room to work with..why do they have to be louder than the bikes? Scotty Rich and his new fourstroke Kawasaki KX450
blew away the motorcycles and Chris Borich did the same for the Quads...but it was the First race of the day for the Quads ..not the pro race that the neighbors noticed was so loud.

I think sound tests as Enduro's and some Hare Scrambles are required so we can keep our place accessable to Quads and the New Four Stroke Motorcycles.

This is real.

 

[Steve210]

ha, yea good article. I see your point, noise doesnt mean power, but personally i lik noise. I have a kx 85 right now, and its not bad for noise. I dont see whats wrong with a little bit of noise though. Like my friend and I went together the other day and he has a yamaha 660R and he has a pro-circuit T-4 on it, and i love the sound that thing makes. I see what u mean though how noise is annoying and stuff, and its not good for my hearing, but i love the sound of hearing a fourstroke opened up and hearing it like a mile and a half away. I donno, thats my opinion, i like noise...

 

[weimedog]

Problem isn't whether you or I like noise, its the local population who has the political power that doesn't...and they can thru legal and political activities take away your places to ride...end of noise.

I am fighting to keep my place as somewhere Quads can race x-country and have fun. If the town decides the QUADS were too noisey...our place is no longer going to able to hold events. End of discussion.

Fortunately the events here were two days...motorcycles saturday quads sunday. The locals LIKED the motorcycles and even the worst nay-sayer has publically stated Saturdays was find..didn't hear anything. It was the Sunday AM races that has me in a bit of a struggle.

You want to have places to play???? Keep it quiet for the surrounding neighbors so the don't have a reason to shut down your play ground.

Some noise from the "backyard"
http://www.thequadbuilder.com/videos/Logan Farm.wmv

 

[Nutty Professor]

Hello from 2020

Hi Everybody, I've just arrived back in 2006 for a holiday with TimeTravel Inc. We've been everywhere else in the galaxy so we decided to come for a retro holiday.

As a keen motocrosser I've had a good laugh at this thread.

By 2010 all four stroke bikes had been banned because of noise factors as they needed low back pressure exhausts to make good horsepower, plus they won't run on Envirogas anyway

However two strokes. which require back presure to make torque have flourished. Since Eurobike started making bikes (when Husky, KTM, TM and Gas Gas merged in 2008) the fuel injected, no oil two stroke is the way to go.

Of course the great FIM scandal of 1999 was discovered in 2007, where the major factories had induced the FIM into setting up a set of rules where two strokes were deliberately given no chance against bikes twice their capacity.

It was a great way to increase profits, making bikes that were worn out after one season of racing and required a mountain of parts and maintenance.

When I first started racing on a LEM 50 I can remember all the big race bikes were so loud, thank heavens four strokes died out, I don't know how the old timers could stand the noise. Nutty.

 

[motometal]

that's the most entertaining post i've read for a long time.

 

[wchum]

No we are not killing our sport! It the best it's ever been. We have the best tv ratings.. Best crowds at races etc. Four strokes need to get quieter I agree but there is tech out there that will improve on this and is only time away....

But as soon as 2 strokers stop riding their 4 strokes like 2 strokes and down on the bottom of their power band. The bikes get quieter and last longer etc... So, we are dialed for a great future as long as we continually improve the pipes.

 

[Shadowpillar]

For offroad, the noise is ridiculous and stupid, there's no reason.
When you're on the road (if you have an enduro like me, or own a bike like a Harley) noise is good because noise is what protects you from lunatics with their huge SUV's Bad enough if you're on the freeway with a car you almost get hit because some idiot believes they're too important to use the turn signal, or even care if people are next to them as they decide to drive on impulse. Having a loud bike on the road alerts them that you're there. Most bike accidents I've seen on the freeway have been with the quieter bikes, I've rarely seen a harley or an equivalent bike.

If you live in So Cali, you'll know what I mean, where many places to go offroad are now no longer accessible by those who do like to go offroad, unless you go an hour and a half into the mojave desert to some dry lake bed. Hesperia used to be a great place to go but suburban sprawl happened, but that's another subject for another day.

So loud can be good, but only where needed, like the open road. Offroad, it's unnecessary, but it isnt the only reason it's being outlawed either, In dusty, dry dirty areas, offroading tends to kick up obscene amounts of dust. The only solution to that I can think of is bringing out a truck with a 1000 gallon tank of water and spraying down a pre-determined area to ride in (enough to keep the soil moist but not muddy)
For many that doesnt work.

Part of this you can blame on the fact it's getting harder to find open land that isnt protected or near a growing suburb full of the same people who would move into houses built next to a dairy and complain about the smell.

In the end, it's multiple factors killing the sport, the noise is one thing that can be fixed though. Arent there mufflers that can be put on these bikes to reduce the overall noise? I know some idiots like taking the muffler off and having all exhaust come out of the spark arrester, which one of my friends does because he thinks noise is cool. (his bike is otherwise quiet.) So why dont these arenas disallow this kind of activity if they dont already?

 

[motometal]

loud pipes don't generally save lives on the road, they just annoy people and make others think you are a jerk! The exhaust goes behind you where you don't need the noise, not in front of you where you need people to hear it. The most common type of accident on a road bike is someone turning left in front of you, a pipe won't prevent that.

I'm sooooo tired of all the loud street bikes in my neighborhood, it's so lame. I think some of them are trying to make up for a lack of endowment elsewhere.

 

[ellandoh]

the new cingular wireless commercial isnt doing us any favors :bang:

 

[fox rider]

I have a YZF and i have a power bomb header on it and a fmf power core 4 on it, i find it way to loud, in terms of power, i dont notice a differnce. My neibors who are 5 acres away say they can hear my bike start up, and say it is really anoying.