BUSTED! this ones for you cops out there

[a454elk]

You know, there's this incident that happened a couple of years back on Halloween here in Buena Park. Some might have heard about it, anyone that lives here most certainly did. Some kids were out stealing plastic pumpkins and halloween decorations on halloween. Well, a homeowner, who was tired of the pranks and petty thefts, grabbed his gun and confronted the kids. Things happened, one thing led to another and in the end, a child was dead. There are two sides to this story, the homeowner, who was probably over reacting a bit, with a gun, and some kids, talking something of little value that wasn't theirs to begin with. You can argue that none of this would have happened if the kids didn't do the petty thefts and you could say that it wouldn't have happened if the homeowner didn't bring a gun out with him. Both are true. No matter what though, it is a sad ending for both sides. The homeowner has to live with his decision and the childs family has to live with their child's decision.

I guess the moral is, you never know who will take offense to what you're doing by taking worthless stuff if that isn't yours. I agree with LT, garbage here is fair game. Teachers reacting in a way that makes it look like an over reaction, well, their human too. I try to teach my kids that you don't take what doesn't belong to you, you never know who is watching and who is tired of the previous thefts they've dealt with. You may run into that one person that has had enough and can't make rational decisions and brings a gun to protect worthless property. Society in general is on the edge, we all see them in our daily lives. That one guy you "give the finger to" may have just had a really bad day and is looking for a release, and you're it. Be careful and ask first, it might save a life.

Next up on the soap box, it's all yours.:)

Elk

 

[RM_guy]

Originally posted by a454elk
...Next up on the soap box, it's all yours.:)

No need to. You said it all very well.

 

[longtime]

Elk -- I'm glad you touched on the part of that story that has got little air time here in SoCal -- those same kids had been harassing that homeowner and pulling "pranks" and petty thefts consistently over a long time. He had had enough. The press out here paints it, though, like some harmless little kids took a pumpkin and that was all . You're also right about being careful generally. Today's world is a good one to behave politely in -- you just never know.

Woodsrider -- good story. But if he had left that junker car on a vacant lot owned by the city, let's say, or in the National Forest, he would have had no claim to it. I see junkers all the time on forest or parkland -- no way in the world that anyone could, or would, give someone a hard time for throwing rocks at them, ripping them apart, whatever.

Oldguy -- thanks for understanding -- I agree that teachers (and coaches) should add to the ethics-teaching that kids need to get.

Okie -- ever shot a fridge that didn't belong to you and wasn't at an official range? I have. You're right that the kids should have asked someone. But you have to admit: often it's assumed to be abandoned. Same for car husks. It all depends on the circumstances. Two fold test: 1) did you actually believe it to be abandoned (subjective test); and 2) would a reasonable person have thought it to be abandoned (objective test). I think it's a "just" test.

As to "overreact" -- well, the kid didn't say what the teachers did, so no way to tell. I think minor crimes, like major ones, deserve punishment -- but proportional punishment.

 

[Okiewan]

As to "overreact" -- well, the kid didn't say what the teachers did, so no way to tell. I think minor crimes, like major ones, deserve punishment -- but proportional punishment.

This is true... what I meant was, in the mind of some, ANY punishment for something they don't think is "all that wrong", seems like an over reaction to them..

 

[LWilson250]

I’m not saying his actions were right, but there is another lesson to be learned from this. DO NOT GET CAUGHT. If you are going to do something you know is wrong at least plan it out to minimize the chances of getting caught. Use your logical thinking skills and plan the whole operation out down to the very last detail.

A favorite game my friend and I used to play was “plan the theft”. We would go to the store and think of ways to work around the security systems and make out with the goods. We never stole anything; we just planned how to do it.

Stealing is wrong, but when something is abandoned there is a real gray area surrounding it... It’s not yours, but whose is it? It’s all very subjective.

Lee W.

 

[a454elk]

Sorry, but another quick note. Where's that darn soap box? Oh well. Last year, down in San Diego, a homeowner shot a kid on a skateboard because he was tired of them skating on everything around his house, I believe. The kid died, very tragic, and yes, an over reaction but again, this is guy who has had enough. Like I said before, you never know that the person you encounter has just "lost it". Believe it or not, in court, the parents pleaded with the guy that shot their kid. They asked if he would not put them through the court proceedings and let their memories of their son be happy ones, not ones from court. I have to say that this is rare but the guy actually told his attorney to he wanted to plead guilty and end this right now. Another sad situation gone bad.

For the younger group here, don't think we are just harping on you cause we're older. There are reasons for our madness!! RESPECT. Remember it, live by it and you will enjoy everyday of your long lives.

OK, I'm really done now;)
Elk

 

[a454elk]

Lee, planning thefts?! Why not plan a ride instead, maybe you could throw in a wheelie or two to make it real exciting. Geesh!
Elk

 

[Strick]

Originally posted by LongTime

dell30 -- I agree with Hig4s 100%. What you did may not have been a crime at all (your local folks know the details, and hopefully did not overlook them). But it's still better just to ask beforehand -- always, to avoid potential misunderstandings . :debil:

Bet this is a post many DRN'ers wouldn't expect from the right-wing fighter pilot lock 'em up kinda' guy. ;)

I also agree with Hig4s 100%.

You learned a lesson here learn by it - ask first!

As you learned by many of the posted above a LOT of people in America would love to be judge, jury and executioner! Be Careful, there are alot of self righteous idiots our there that are viewed by the public to be good and/or bad. So, please be careful. The LA example is a brutal one.

And Long Time, if you had responded to this in any other way, I would have bombarded you with a lengthy dialectic tirade!

Were all of you perfect little angels? I wasn't. Looks like Woodrider and me were the adolescent culls!

 

[LWilson250]

Originally posted by a454elk
Lee, planning thefts?! Why not plan a ride instead, maybe you could throw in a wheelie or two to make it real exciting. Geesh!
Elk

That was long before I was interested in riding, come on now, do you REALLY think now a days I can think of anything other then bikes and girls? I’m 16!!! :scream:

Lee W.

 

[a454elk]

:D

 

[BunduBasher]

LT, I have a :) for you.

Yes, if it is junk, no harm done, if it is on school property, best to get permission, if it is on someone elses property, get theirs too.

Now as to the guy collecting junk old tyres for paintball, no harm done if you collected junk, for someone to now take what you have collected for your business or game purposes, that would be stealing !

I like the idea of getting the salvage title, do that, and they are all yours, emblems and all :confused:

 

[dell30rb]

Lol mabye we should try to get a salvage title. We did not go back there with the intentions of comitting a crime. none of us ever thought that anyone would be mad about taking the emblems off some cars. We would never take anything else that was worth something to somebody. I still think that garbage is fair game. we are not really sure where our property line is, but we are sure that some of the cars are on our property. Some of the more realistic teachers that had actually seen the cars, took our side and told us that we couldnt go back therre any more, but they talked with the teachers who wanted us to be punished and got us off the hook. They were probably illiegally dumped there by some bozo. What really makes me mad is that those other teachers had not seen the cars and had automatically assumed that they were like...working cars. They didnt even give us a chance to tell our side of the story. Would a salvage title cost anything, and how much?

Justql, I have pity for the students at your school.

 

[WoodsRider]

Originally posted by Strick
Looks like Woodrider and me were the adolescent culls!

Oh man, looking back the pellet gun incident doesn't even scratch the surface. No wonder my dad like to keep me within arms reach. There's nothing a quick smack to the back of my head couldn't cure.

 

[Jeff Gilbert]

You aksked so I'm answering

I think they are attempting to teach you right from wrong. If you accept that you used poor judgment and did wrong along with demonstrating a lesson learned that will probably suffice. But then again the cars don't belong to me.

 

[LaRider20]

Okie, I would say yes kids think alike and adults think alike also; but in this case dell30rb is a kid and I am an adult. I have two kids his age. We just happen to agree on this one. I do see everyones point, but man there are some extremists out there.

For the rest of the general population, with this little debate we have here it has brought out some interesting views. I can appreciate someone elses point of view because some of you have changed mine...a little. On the other hand I may never agree with or understand you fringe dwellers.

 

[HiG4s]

Just a thought.
Until you can understand the fringe dwellers and still feel firm on your convictions, how can you be firm on your convictions?

 

[Miltonyz]

I respect and can sympathise with the majority of opinions thrown out at this discussion. However, their are a few arguments that I do not understand fully.
1. The claim that taking something from an abandoned object on public property is stealing. I found a quarter on the ground today at school and picked it up. Would I be suspended for this at your school justql? If so I believe that 100% of our population would be guilty of theft. According to my Random House College Dictionary stealing is defined as

to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, esp. seceretly or by force.

I believe that an abandoned car on public land has no owner? If so then there was no crime of stealing. At which point it seems the school has no reason to get involved other then for safeties sake.

Justql, I agree with you fully on the subject of suspending kids just for stealing a bag of chips. I am a firm supporter of the fact there is consequenses for our actions. However I believe in this case the school clearly overstepped their bounds by punishing someone who did not break a rule.

Spanky, you seem to be a good guy. I am confused by your stance in this issue though. You and I had a discussion a year? back about the girl and her grape juice. You claimed in that argument that even though a rule was broken enforcing it was crazy considering the crime. Maybe it doesn't seem the same to you but the connections betweens this and the other was obvious.

I do not mean to upset anyone with this post and if the topic gets out of control I will delete it to prevent a scene.:)

 

[oldguy]

Miltonz
You did an excellant job of expressing your opinions (even if they are wrong j/k;) ). The trick to keeping debates going is to point out thoughts in a mature and complete statement which you have done. When thoughts are expressed this way they are given more credence so if the thread would go bad it wouldn't be your post that pushed it.:cool:

 

[Okiewan]

I'm not assuming the cars are abandoned, the young man doesn't know if they are. I have an issue with the attitude: "I don't think anyone owns it, so I'll take it". My point has nothing to do with the school or what they did, rather the basic issue of right or wrong. They should have taken a little time to find out about the cars. The act of theft is theft, regardless of the item's value. Sorry, I really don't see where the debate is?

If that is on the fringe... guilty.

 

[Miltonyz]

I'm not assuming the cars are abandoned, the young man doesn't know if they are.

I guess this is what this debate boils down to is assumptions:)
I assume that that the cars are abandoned you assume that they are not.

have an issue with the attitude: "I don't think anyone owns it, so I'll take it".

I agree that is not a good attitude to have. While I think that what he did was not really right I beleive that it was not against the law or current rules working under my set of assumptions. Under your set of assumptions this is a violation of the law.
I guess considering that all we have to go on is his word there is no real way to prove who is correct.

dell30rb you need to think better about things you do.
If that turns out to be somebody elses property you deserve what you get.
My dad always tells me 1. Don't steal/destruct someone elses property 2.Don't lie 3. Respect your mom. I believe those seem to be pretty decent rules. Everyone would get along a lot better following them.

 

[Okiewan]

I guess this is what this debate boils down to is assumptions
I assume that that the cars are abandoned you assume that they are not.

Let's assume :confused: you are in court for stealing the emblems. Which assumption do you think the judge would say you should have made?

When in doubt.... Don't.

 

[Miltonyz]

I agree 100% the kids should not have done it. It was wrong. And they made an assumption they probaly shouldn't have considering that the punishment of being wrong far outweighed the benifet of being right. But until someone steps foward and claims ownership and wants to prosecute the school can not prove it was stolen. In fact in my honest opinion the evidence more strongly leans toward the fact that the cars were abandoned.
However if someone steps foward and claims ownership then the boys need to be punished.

As a side question what was the point of taking the logos off?

 

[justql]

I understand the analogy of the quarter and agree. If the emblem had been laying on the ground in a pasture, different story. The story the way I understand it is truly a grey area. I think that they should not risk the results of taking something in that situation.

 

[lilcr80]

I hear a lot of people saying if it's not your's then don't touch it but it belongs to nobody it's sitting in the back of a school somewhere growing plants out of it. I could see the staff looking out for their safety, but theft? If someone set out a chainsaw for trash and I pick it up, am I a thief?

 

[justql]

I could go through all the scenarios about what is right or wrong. I know I am being misunderstood by a lot of people. It's been a good conversation. It's time to go check out the womens forun.:D