Classes To Sustain The 2 Stroke

[pace]

I wonder if prices will continue to increase, or if they will stabilize once the technology has matured. It seems like we're currently swallowing all that R&D expenditure.

On principle, I don't have a problem with decreasing emissions and cleaning up our environment, but there are far greater contributors to pollution than the relatively small number of OHV users. As a historically under-represented group without much financial/political clout, it seems like we are an easy target for environmental lobby groups whose efforts would be more constructively expended elsewhere.

 

[OldTimer]

On principle, I don't have a problem with decreasing emissions and cleaning up our environment, but there are far greater contributors to pollution than the relatively small number of OHV users. As a historically under-represented group without much financial/political clout, it seems like we are an easy target for environmental lobby groups whose efforts would be more constructively expended elsewhere.

You said it there brother,
There are 10,000 diesel semi tractor-trailers out there coughing up heaps of carcinogenic sulfur fumes by the shovel full for every offroad vehicle on the planet. But if you have to justify your existence by snuffing out puffs, who you gonna pick on? The trucking industry or nuisance OVRs?
You gotta have trucking, but everybody hates those OVRs anyway. Who cares if it's the equivalent of picking up a pop bottle on a beach in Puget Sound while Valdese is pumping crude all over creation.

 

[YZ165]

As soon as the two strokes are limited to one spark every two revolutions of the engine, I'll be happy to race a 250F against a 250 2T. Until then, the cc difference is necessary to create equality.

 

[gwcrim]

As soon as the two strokes are limited to one spark every two revolutions of the engine, I'll be happy to race a 250F against a 250 2T. Until then, the cc difference is necessary to create equality.

".....and the oaks were all kept equal by hatchet, axe, and saw."

Take you average racer. Show him two engines. One has few moving parts, is inexpensive to maintain and makes incredible power for it's displacement. The other has many, many more parts, requires judicious maintenance or it grenades and costs beaucoup bux to fix, and requires twice the displacement to keep up with the other engine choice.

Now, absent government intervention, which would the average racer choose?

I'm not anti 4 stroke. I have them in my cars and some of my lawn maintenance equipment. But to jump up and down and declare that they are the second coming of Christ, is just a tad foolish. The design is so inferior that they require twice the displacement and are far more expensive to build because of their complexity.

But at least the air is clean and we can all hug trees with a clear conscience.

 

[XRpredator]

. . . But to jump up and down and declare that they are the second coming of Christ, is just a tad foolish.

no, they are the first coming of TOTAL AWESOMENESS

 

[pace]

:laugh:

Wesome!

 

[CaptainObvious]

".....Take you average racer. Show him two engines. One has few moving parts, is inexpensive to maintain and makes incredible power for it's displacement. The other has many, many more parts, requires judicious maintenance or it grenades and costs beaucoup bux to fix, and requires twice the displacement to keep up with the other engine choice.

Now, absent government intervention, which would the average racer choose?

The racer will ALWAYS choose the one that will get him across the finish line first.

 

[OldTimer]

... Until then, the cc difference is necessary to create equality.

Yeah... create!
And besides, if equality were the goal then the displacement wouldn't be gapped to the point where 2Ts are no longer able to compete.

Oh, and while I'm at it...
Every time one of these threads gets started the vast majority of the posts are in favor of the 2Ts with a few 4T guys chiming in. It seems obvious to me that 2Ts are being fazed out despite rider preference.

Just so ya'll know where I stand... for my next bike I want to get a 4T. You know, the old school style that weren't tuned to the verge of exploding. 4Ts are perfect as ultra-dependable tractor-like woods bikes where all you do 'gas-oil-air filter' and forget it. Like the XR's (which Honda quit making).

 

[D Lafleur]

The EPA gets you on emissions first,2t, then once the quiet bikes are gone, some local government agency shuts you down for noise,4t,.... Anybody here want to go mountain biking this weekend? Oh wait the hikers want those gone, because they are "too quiet". It is so easy to see it coming!!!!!!! Where will we take the stand?????

I know there are quiet 4t, but the pulses of their exhaust carry further and through material that would normally deaden the 2t.

 

[towlie]

Until then, the cc difference is necessary to create equality.

Have you ever seen that movie with Russel Crowe about the Roman Empire(I forget the name)?
The last fight when he gets stabbed and has to fight wounded is comparable here. It's just not a fair fight.

 

[ellandoh]

if it can make money for the gov't they will find a way to get it until they get all your money........if you add up all the taxes and other ways the gov't gets your money now you would probably be sick

income tax
sales tax
property tax
gasoline tax
cigarette tax
death tax
inheritance tax
capital gains tax
luxury tax
license plates
orv sticker and if you go to the dunes in mi , state park sticker BOTH
registration
there is probably 75 %

 

[crazyYammi]

Believe me the manufacturers/AMA rolled over for the EPA on this one. I am sure the new 4s mx bikes are the manufacturers wet dream.
I bet you one single wildfire releases more crap than all the 2 strokes in history. Dirtbikes are used in the woods AWAY from urban areas, they do not contribute to smog. There were no studies done before the actual legislation took place.
The EPAs reasoning was this: "We haven't updated rules for motorcycles since the 70s, so we did"
In other words, there was no reason to do this.

 

[steve125]

It's always about the money. Just think how much more the manufacturers are making in just parts on these 4 bangers. Talk about a wet dream!

Also the oil companies, oil changes ever 2-3 rides, thats 2 qts right there. Think everyone is recycling?? or properly disposing of all this oil?? Ha! I think not.

 

[XRpredator]

if you guys spent as much time fighting for the "rights" of 2 stroke guys as you do whining about how everything is unfairly stacked against them, you'd get your way.

 

[steve125]

By supporting Boyesen Engineering is a start. I hear he's close to a patent on the clean burning 2 smoke. Evinrude has made huge strides in this area also. The 4 stroke version of this outboard has to be serviced 7 times more often than the 2 stroke. And weighs 125 lbs more, and of course puts out way less power per displacement.

http://www.evinrude.com/en-US/Campaigns/Emissions.htm

http://www.evinrude.com/en-US/E-Tec/E-TEC.Advantage/

 

[jeffd]

The EPA can only legislate emissions, they can't legislate technology. A clean burning 2 stroke is the answer.

Does anyone have any ideas what the major manufacturers are doing in this area?

Evinrude has demonstrated that they can build better 2 strokes, some snow-mobile mfgr's have too. What are the motorcycle mfgr's up to?

 

[john3_16]

Of course it was easier to ride fast than a 500 cc two-stroke roadracer, right? Interesting how a little doubling of displacement makes a bike "easy to ride," right?

Those 500cc 2 strokes are scary light for a streetbike and pretty darn quick...The Vtwin although extremely fast with 170mph top end and lots of grunt to boot was very deceptive...Because of the power pulses and the lower redline It did not give you the perception of speed that one would think would come with a bike that powerful...
I mean, you could be moving along at 160 mph and the engine feels and sounds like it's barely working as compared to an inline 4 engine....Very easy to ride but sacrificing excitement as well. Stable as a train in the upper triple digit speeds too..No damper needed, probably because of the extra weight.

 

[john3_16]

The EPA gets you on emissions first,2t, then once the quiet bikes are gone, some local government agency shuts you down for noise,4t,.... Anybody here want to go mountain biking this weekend? Oh wait the hikers want those gone, because they are "too quiet". It is so easy to see it coming!!!!!!! Where will we take the stand?????

I know there are quiet 4t, but the pulses of their exhaust carry further and through material that would normally deaden the 2t.

They closed Mosier Valley here in Texas just this year...Lot's of GNC's were once held there and a pretty nice track.

 

[john3_16]

By supporting Boyesen Engineering is a start. I hear he's close to a patent on the clean burning 2 smoke. Evinrude has made huge strides in this area also. The 4 stroke version of this outboard has to be serviced 7 times more often than the 2 stroke. And weighs 125 lbs more, and of course puts out way less power per displacement.

http://www.evinrude.com/en-US/Campaigns/Emissions.htm

http://www.evinrude.com/en-US/E-Tec/E-TEC.Advantage/

125lbs Lighter, faster, cleaner, and less maintenance....I saw the Evinrude comercial on tv a few months bike and I was like "2 stroke come back" ! :yeehaw:


The 2 stroke design just has everything going in it's favor...Lighter, more TQ and HP, easier maintenance...That's technology.

 

[steve125]

No doubt, with the insurgence of the 4 bangers, its all about lining the pockets of the manufacturers. This extreme should have never been allowed to happen. I wonder if 60 minutes will put this in their " fleecing of America" segment.

 

[XRpredator]

this has gone where it always goes, so it's going elsewhere . . .

 

[steve125]

I grabbed this from another board, I have to agree totally. :nod:

Anyways, heres my take on the whole thing.

1) The EPA wants to replace 2-strokes with 4-stroks because it is very easy to get riding areas shut down on the grounds of noise pollution rather than chemical pollution. Noise pollution is a very clear cut issue, and it is easy to get locals to sign a petition against it. 2-strokes make a high pitched noise that does not travel far, whereas 4-strokes make a low pitched noise that travels nearly 4 times as far. Even as a rider, I can't stand it when 4-strokes are riding on the track in my yard when I am trying to relax or concentrate on something. The sound is just abnoxious. When it is 2-strokes, I don't even notice.

2) The manufacturers want to replace 2-strokes with 4-strokes because of the very obvious financial benefits to them. If you were out to make a profit (and they aren't doing ANYTHING other than that) you would definately see the advantages of 4-strokes. They can sell a bike that is cheap, simple, reliable, easy to maintan and repairs can be made by any 13 year old...OR...they can sell an expensive, complicated bike that is prone to catastrophic failure due to the excess of moving parts and maintaince and repair is so difficult that most people would have to take their bikes to a dealer for repairs, giving a nice cut to the MFG. Of course, in the long term this will be bad for them, once the EPA gets rolling, since the companies are just making it easier for the EPA to shut down riding areas.

3) Aftermarket companies are more than happy about the switch. Aside from companies that specialized in 2-strokes, who are taking a huge beating, the aftermarket companies are ecstatic. Aftermarket parts for 4-stokes are much more expensive than aftermarket parts for 2-stokes. This is especially true with the exhaust companies. In most cases, the price for a complete system for the two different types (cr125 vs. crf250 for example) would be nearly double! And don't forget White Brothers, who is making a killing off of their Carbon Pro pipe. Never in the history of pre-4-stroke motocross could they EVER get away with selling an exhaust for 900 bucks. It's just not possible. Not to mention there are other buisness opportunites that never existed with 2-strokes. Look at Pro Circuit. They are making some serious cash off of their line of rediculously expensive 4-stroke parts. Titanium valves and springs, camshafts, special water pump covers, oversized radiators, expensive porting and tons and tons of other stuff. The aftermarkets love 4-strokes. The parts are more expensive and wear out faster. If it were up to them, 2-strokes would immediately dissappear, never to return.

4) The AMA is naturally on the side of the manufacturers. The OEMs have tons and tons of money and totally control the sport. Even if the AMA wasn't wrapped around their finger (which they most definately are), the manufacturers are still in control. If Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Suzuki and KTM all banded together and upped the displacement of a stock 125cc 2-stroke to, say, 150cc's or whatever would help keep them competitive; and produced/imported mass quantities of the bikes, the AMA would have no choice but to eventually allow them in AMA sanctioned racing. Of course, the companies have no intention of doing that, and rather are doing the opposite. It was because of Yamahas influence that 250cc 4-strokes are even allowed in the 125 class in the first place. Since then there have been all sorts of restrictions to keep 4-strokes on top, one of which being the weight limit, to keep 2-strokes from getting too light and making the much higher weights of 4-strokes from becoming too apparent. Of couse, there is also the fuel regulations now. Becuase of the rule banning unleaded fuel, 2-strokes became rediculously hard to get to run right. Years and years worth of factory jetting and porting specs suddenly became obsolete. Basically everyone on a 2-stroke had to start all of their engine testing back at square one, or they could switch to a 4-stroke, which was pretty much un-effected by the rule.

5) Slow riders love it too. While a 250F makes about the same peak power as a 125, the torque of the 250F makes it immensely easier to ride. Shifting technique and cornering have become less important for local riders. The fact that slower riders can go faster on a four stroke made it nessecary for the faster riders to make the switch to enjoy the same benfits. Of course, now with everyone on 4-strokes nobody has any advantage anyways, and the only difference really is that everyone is paying a whole lot more. For kids moving up from 80s who opt to ride a 125cc bike as the stepping stone that it is, and for riders who do not want or cannot afford a 4-stroke; they just have a huge disadvantage that is not nessecary.

Everyone seems to love 4-strokes, especially the EPA, who is going to ultimately use them as a tool to get us shut down. It is my honest opinion that at a local level the sport will be wiped out in most areas within 15 years. It will remain more as a form of entertainment than anything else (why would anyone with their hands in the pie that is AMA Supercross EVER let that go?) and there will still be pro racing, but I don't think the grassroots of the sport will be around for alot longer.
_________________

 

[KAWA200'sRule]

I just really dont see how the 4strokes have helped the sport at all. I ride a yz250f but wouldnt if I didnt have to. I am 15 years old pay for most of my parts and lets just say its gotten tougher to do so on this bike. I think also that its cool to mod your bike and all but its getting outrageous. You just about cant be competitive on a brand new 6000 dollar dirtbike! Because everybody who you race against has that same 6k bike but with another 3k in the motor. Last week the guy I pulled up next to at the gate had a Procircuit Works KYB fork kit on his kx250f. Thats a 5k fork kit isnt it? Isnt that pro level machinery? Its just ridiculous. How are average people going to be able to get into this sport. (Complaining over)

 

[MXP1MP]

Steve125 damn! you took the words right out of my mouth I really believe the manufactors big push on 4 strokes is to make there bank accounts larger and your's smaller much faster. Plus the whole noise issue I'm starting to really hate 4 strokes cause I know they are hurting the sport.

"4 strokes are for hauling the 2 strokes to the track!"

"Aroma theraphy is riding a 2 stroke" :boss:

 

[kuchera89]

mfg's are short sighted. they'll do whatever they can to make money right then,

its like digging for burried tresure that your enemy told you about, then as soon as you dig deep enough, they'll cover you up.

they run thier buisness like i do homework. i have lots of fun till about 12:30 then i relize im royaly screwed. :uh: