Clicking noise from top end??

[JTS016]

I just recently purchased a 2003 KDX220, and I love it! I am unsure of the history of it, it was a trade in at a local dealer, and they were selling it "as is". I have only been able to ride it a couple of times, and I am a noob when it comes to what a 2 stroke is supposed to sound like through the range of it's powerband. I noticed, to me, what sounds like a clicking noise in the top end when I am either slowly accelerating, or cruising at a constant speed. Any thoughts on what this could be, and how to fix it? Or is this normal? Thanks.

 

[julien_d]

If it goes away under acceleration, it's most likely just the KIPS noise. You can search for "kips rattle" and get more information than you care to read through. It's quite normal however, so no worries. If it's a noise that gets louder when you rev it, then you could have a problem with top end wear.

J.

 

[JTS016]

Thanks for the info julen_d. I'll make sure to listen for it when I'm ragging it out, when I take it out this weekend. The noise is not there when I rev it in neutral, just riding. I hope I don't have to do a top end, but it probably wouldn't hurt. I cleanded the carb today. It was spotless!! Which was very suprising because the dealer told me the guy who traded it said he never rode it, so who knows how old the gas in it was, and he left the fuel valve on.

 

[julien_d]

I gotta tell you, you should take a peek at that top end. The stock 220 cast pistons are notorious for grenading into thousands of tiny pieces, which usually results in a top and bottom rebuild. If the piston has been replaced with a wiseco you should be good to go, if not, you should put a wiseco in it ASAP. It's not hard to do, not very expensive, and could save you a lot of money and heartache in the long run.

 

[reepicheep]

+1 on pulling the jug soon. It's not hard job (you can even leave the head on, just pull the jug). My neighbor guilted me into doing it on my project bike when I was in denial, and sure enough the piston was cracked.

You can see some of the piston through the exhaust port... and see if it's scored, but you won't necessarily see the crack.

If the piston is cracked, you can replate with Nickasil and get a new piston for $350 or so, or do the same with a big bore kit and custom porting for about $500. Not cheap, but more durable then the factory stuff by far.

 

[JTS016]

Man guys, from what yall are saying and from what I've been reading on some other threads it sounds like I really should. I'll have to surf the web to find me a weisco for a reasonable price. What kind of breakin period/riding would you suggest after I replace the piston?? And is there anything else I should do while I have the top off?

 

[reepicheep]

(This all assumes the 220 is the same cylinder plating as the 200, I don't know if it is)d

The big decision is if you just slap in a new piston, or if you replate the cylinder. The stock (tungsten deposition?) coating isn't the best, certainly nowhere near as good as a Nikasil plating would be.

So your "worst case" in terms of agonizing over it is if you pull it and find a perfect piston a perfect cylinder bore. Then you can just put in a Weisco and call it done, or decide to replate. I'm guessing slapping a new piston in is at least $150 by the time you are done (rings, circlips, gaskets, bearing, wrist pin, etc).

Your "best case" for not having to agonize is to find a cracked piston and damaged bore. Then you *have* to rebore and replate and put in a new piston. On my 200 it was over $350 for back to stock, or $500 for a big bore and custom porting. A lot of $$, but at least you don't have to agonize over the decision, broken is broken.

The other wild card is piston life. My understanding from to the guy that did my top end (Eric Gorr), was that nikasil will let pistons and rings last a lot longer then the factory coating will... so in the long run, replating may be the cheaper option. If it saves one piston, you are already ahead.

You want to clean out all the KIPS stuff up in the head while you have it apart... and check for crank play. Since it's a two stroke, other then that, it's pretty simple. Not a lot else that can wrong up there.

 

[JTS016]

I am unfamiliar with nikasil replating. I'm assuming since you had someone (Eric Gorr) do yours, and you sound like you're pretty knowlegable about engines yourself, that having this done is something that you deemed "be left to a proffesional", and would suggest the same to me. Which if it is the case, I don't know of any good recomendations for someone to do this for me, other than the Kawi dealer in town, which everyone knows you're going to pay primo chedder at the dealership.

 

[reepicheep]

Nikasil is the "normal" high performance coating for aluminum unsleved cylinders these days... Definitely a "send it out" job, lots of people do it.

Eric seems to have done a good job on my 200 big bore. There was a minor miscommunication and I thought he had told me it was "ready to bolt on", and it turns out the nuts were not torqued and the head gasket wasn't installed, but thats no big deal, I should have double checked before putting it together.

I also sent it to him with a stripped 5mm hole... and it came back the same way. Again, perfectly reasonable, but if he had a heli coil set laying around and could have spent the two minutes and given up the 50 cent part to install it, I would have felt even better about dropping $500.

But thats all stupid stuff, and more my fault then anyone elses. The work seems to be top shelf and the motor is working great. I would definitely recommend him. He was very patient with my questions and took a lot of time to educate me about what my options were and why he suggested the things he did.

This all may be premature though... somebody should pop off that cylinder (you can leave the head bolted on to it) and see how the piston and jug look. If the cylinder is perfect, then maybe it's not such a bad idea to just replace the piston and ride it another season or two before dropping big $$ on it. Or maybe the cylinder is already damaged, and you have no choice but a bore and plate.

 

[JTS016]

G E'fin D'it reep, you really know how to ruin christmas!! I love this bike, and I want it to last, it just hurts dropping three to five hundred on it right of the bat just to "make sure" it doesn't blow up in the long run. And many thanks for the input... trust me it's better I know than not know, I just hope it's the KIPS from julien_d's post. But like yout said, I'm sure tearing down the top would help me more than hurt me (the bike, not my wallet). I just got out of a knee injury, so no "MAJOR" riding for now, but I want to atleast, listen to how the engine is doing, and make sure I don't blow it up because of "wishful thinking". Many thanks guys/girls.
P.S. Let me know if you all think of something else.

 

[jonooffler]

Hi mate I have a 2003 KDX220 mine sounds a bit tappy on the top end which is only at low revs I have had a Kaw motocross work shop have a look at it and put their ear to it and they have said it's the KIP valve.As for 220 piston issue if you look on the net you will find two lines to this, some say there is a problem some say not to worry.I have found a online seller that sells the weisco piston for £70.00 which I,m going to get one just for peace of mind I might strip the head down at the same time but if you can pull the jug with out removing the head I might do that and leave the KIPS till later.
As for the bores the 220 was hard plated from new and unless there is a lot of damage or score marks you will be fine for a long time.
The one thing that I have found on all KDX forums is that every one looks like they are aiming to spend as much money improving their KDX as they can.The way I look at it if the KDX is so bad why not save your money and buy a newer faster bike, it will save you a lot of money. I join a forum every time I buy a new bike, and then wish that I had not bought the bike, the DRZ400 forum claimed there was a lot of major faults as did the XR250 and the TE610E, after reading these tales I did not like to take the bike out just in case the bike died /blew up on me.
Just enjoy your KDX get out and ride it :ride: thats what it's all about, I don't know what sort of riding you do and how many miles you do but unless you ride balls out 100 % of the time and over 10000 miles a year you will be fine with it as it is.
Just to add I have been told the only piston to get is the weisco as some other makes that are for sale are the stock pistons in a new box.
Jono





Jono

 

[reepicheep]

I feel your pain (literally). My $800 KDX is now a $2000 KDX, and I can't ride off road until Nov 10th (Dr's orders after knee surgery).

The dirty little secret of dirt bikes is that this kind of rebuild is par for the course if you actually are going to use the things often... and the good news is that it's a ton cheaper and a lot easier on a KDX two stroke then it is on most bikes.

Maybe your cylinder will be fine, and "just put in a new piston" will be a viable option for you.

 

[sr5bidder]

reep
I bought mine for 700 and have only bought bars/grips, tires, 607 reeds, seat, new graphics, 1 dollar inner and outer clutch cover (ebay 14.95 shipping), wide pegs for 14 bucks, air filter, 1 bag frostking, gas cap, chain and sprockets...and of course about 40 gallons of gas/oil and approx 8 qts of type f and NO plugs yet and have been on 15 trips consisting of 1 or 2 all day rides + a four day ride fest all in the last 10 months... I've spent morre on gas "getting there" than the total cost of ownership on the bike.

Unless I could buy a bike in the condition yours was in for 200 bucks I'd have walked but yeah it was dark when you went to see it, I've been there and you had to do something with all your free time. I hope you get your 2 grands worth out of it and you keep it for many years

 

[reepicheep]

What has suprised me is how good the bike feels relative to my neighbors state of the art Honda CRF-450.

When I started this project, I was expecting a cheaper and lighter, but less powerful bike relative to his.

I haven't gotten a real dirt ride on the KDX big bore yet, but the "up the street and around the yard" feel is that it is just as over powered as his bike is. Both bikes seem to be "dial a wheelie" bikes... meaning that at full power under most conditions either bike will simply flip or loose traction. So the power of both is "more then enough".

And the KDX feels (and is) lighter, and will certainly be far cheaper to maintain over time... and even at my "high end of the spectrum" $2000 total investment, its still $5000 cheaper.

The Honda has a better suspension for sure... but $5000 would buy a lot of trick little suspension bits ;) And the fours stroke Honda would make a much better dual sport if you really want to do a lot of road riding... but having been there and done that, riding a dirt bike on the street now just seems to me to be an expensive way to ruin a dirt bike in order to create a lousy street bike... (where is my ducking icon? ;) )

 

[sr5bidder]

reep if you haven't done the shimstack mod, do it, just getting back into riding after injury is bad enough the only way I can put it is Why ride a jackhammer when you can ride a pillow!!!
this mod mellows out the roots rocks and any other hard hitting obstical.

as far as your nieghbors crf450 if it were a crf250x I would trade the kdx in a second!!!

we have lots of hill climbs and tight stuff and the thought of just keeping it in 2nd or thrid grunting around is tempting as is the reduced wheel hop and spinning.

sometimes I think it must look like I'm out of control on the kdx becuase it switches around so much. but I really like my kdx and don't have the crf money and if I did I would buy a Jepp wrangler

 

[JTS016]

I think I'm going to take it riding a couple of more times to get a little more familiar with the bike and pay good attention to how the engine is sounding through its powerband. I have some buddies that use to ride 2 strokes a great deal (125's and 250's) so I'll get one of them to take a ride on it and see if anything sounds funny to them. In the meantime, I'll be saving up to swap the piston for a weisco and still debate about the nikasil. Thanks for all of your input guys/girls. Now I know atleast where to start.
And Jono, I really liked your input about not moding out the bike. I can definetely see the apeal to do so. I believe, as specially for Americans, we always want it Bigger, Badder, and Faster!! :ride: . And I'm sure that when I become a better rider I might decide to do the same. But a stock KDX can truly hold it's own on the trails, and not break the bank doing so. If yall have any more suggestions for me and my new baby please do share. Thanks again

 

[jonooffler]

Hi mate good luck with the bike, every hour on the trail has to be worth ten in the work shop.
Ride and enjoy.
Jono

 

[JTS016]

Just for an update. I changed the spark plug, and dumped the old tank of gas with some new premix 32:1 with 93 octane and some yamalube 2r. It ran great! Could still hear some noise from the top, but I was reading some old posts and am thinking it could be my low oil. Looked at window and it was REALLY LOW, and from what I've been reading, having too low of oil can cause some excessive noise from the kips??? Hope so, haven't got any gear oil yet, but soon as I can top it off I'll take it for a quick ride around the hood :ride: and listen for any changes. If all is good, I think all I really need to do some stress free riding is a new chain and air filter (besides the inevitable wiseco swap, no $$ right now). Got a 40 mile trail around here that I definitely don't want to be a good ways into it and break the rusty POS that's on there now.