Death of the 125 - what will be the last 125 year?

[super rat]

Dude your ...... I'm not going to say it.


250 sx title 2 stroke
250 mx title 2 stroke
125 sx east 2 stroke
125 sx west 2 stroke
125 mx title 2 stroke
winner of the MXdN's 2 stroke

Yea your right they are much much better and the guys who know how to ride know it.

 

[Okiewan]

last week, i asked the parts manager at the local honda shop how many 250f's they have sold and he said only two, that there doesn't seem to be any demand for them here.

You spoke to a moron. I know I look to my parts manager as the 'man" lol. How many 250F's have they had? My guess is two. Or maybe it's an Oklahoma thing? We all know OK is about 10 years behind the rest of the world :) Honda will sell every 4 stoke they elect to produce. What's the best selling "250 Class" bike on the planet in 03? CRF450.

As much as I too would like to hear a ripping 2-stroke (I grew-up with it afterall) winning races, I'm not blind to the writing on the wall. It's there, that's how it will be, might as well get over it. If you choose to live in denial, I guess that's your gig :p

Those 2-S titles? Thing of the past. How many of the top riders are switching? We also used to do denistry without pain relief. LOL. Just because it's the way it has been, doesn't mean that's the way it will be. Just a matter of time.

 

[TheGrinch]

I'm guessing 2008.

If the emission laws don't outlaw 2 strokes, decline in sales will. But at least if that happens we can still race 2 strokes at the vintage mx meets to fulfill our cravings for the smell of 2 stroke exhaust, and the crack of the powerband.

 

[Yogurt]

I'm gonna guess 2007. Already for 2004, I can only begin to imagine how many 250F's are gonna line up on the starting gate for my 125 class. I made the switch for 2004, and I'm pretty convinced I already shaved a few seconds off my lap times. 4-strokes are the wave of the future! Better hang on baby!

BTW- I love my 04 CRF250. It's all stock and much faster and easier to ride than my very moded, punched out CR133.

 

[2smoke]

Yes I too am a product of my era......but two strokes will die, that is a fact and it is inevitable and undeniable. To think anything else is live in denial. With the point about two stroke title winners if you want a four stroke 250 champ make Ricky ride a 450f and it will be done.....and thats that. I dont think its the bike thats been winning his titles for him.

We (my friends and I) regularly attend organised rides. Me and four others are the only strokers left. The last ride "Hollywood" on his CR500E was the only one amongst 70 riders. That says it all really. 2007 at the latest.....and thats probably for all stokers not just 125's.

 

[yzguy15]

I don't see why 2-strokes can't live on forever like the KX500 does. I know all the other manufacturers have dropped their 500, but Kawasaki hasn't, and that bike fills a niche market. I think that, in a similar manner to the open class beasts, 2-strokes will not cease to exist as long as there are people aroudn to buy them.

 

[Okiewan]

I don't see why 2-strokes can't live on forever like the KX500 does.

.
And what R&D has gone into that bike? What changes other than plastic and graphics? The only reason that ONE 500 is still here (other than Service Honda's AF and that's a whole different thing) is it's cheap to make after all these years, ROI was seen a long time ago.

Two stroke technology as we know it is a dead man walking.

 

[yzguy15]

Regardless, if it's still being made then it is not quite dead. Don't ya think?

BTW, I had already thought of the fact that the 500 hasn't been changed in more than 10 years. I don't expect any sort of substantial R&D dollars to be spent towards 2-strokes within 3 or 4 years, but I also don't see them disappearing entirely. I think there will always be guys (and gals) that want them, and they will fill a niche market, like a 500 or a quad  :p

 

[Okiewan]

This all assumes manufacturers WANT to produce a product for a niche market :) . How much longer do you the the KX500 being produced?

 

[Chili]

I would definately consider myself a 2 stroke guy but I'm already beginning to wonder if picking up a new 2 stroke 125 to race this season was a mistake. Nothing like heading to the line with a handicap. :think:

 

[mx547]

Originally posted by Okiewan

You spoke to a moron. I know I look to my parts manager as the 'man"

he's a moron for stating the facts? he didn't say that four-stokes suck or anything like that, he merely stated that at present, there isn't the demand for the 250f here. perhaps, i should have said that besides the two that are sold, no one else has asked to reserve one (and this is a high volume dealer). he's not the "man" but he is the director of their race and support program along with being the lowly parts manager. i'm not in denial. i realize that the cards are stacked against two-stokes and that soon, they will likely be history. other than the noise, i have absolutely nothing against four-strokes.

 

[Okiewan]

I should've put a smilie by the word moron ... reading it again it comes off a little harsh :ugg: . Apologies.

I'm looking forward to seeing some sales numbers on the new Hondas as well as the Kawisuki.

 

[super rat]

For someone to say 4 bangers are way better than 2 strokes is stupid. If they were even alittle better every factory rider with a choise would be on one. I wish I had a nickle for every time I've had a buddy tell me that they were sooo much faster on their new thumper but after doing a few motos with them I gotta burst their bubble and tell them "your not going any faster on that pig, sorry" I can see the wrighting on the wall but right now two strokes with half of the displacment are just as good as thumpers. It will be a long long time before someone in the B class needs to be on a thumper to be competive.

 

[Okiewan]

hey 'rat... do you believe it would be in the factory's best interest to allow the riders to ride what they want? Why would they when they are still making the 2 strokes?

Are you gonna say that the riders ride whatever they want?

 

[super rat]

Did bubba get to pick? I'm sure RC gets to pick. Reed..... just a few but just the same if thumpers were sooo much better I don't think these guys would be messing with premix.

 

[Okiewan]

I don't know, did Bubba get to pick? Does RC get to pick? Are you guessing?
Have you seen a factory contract?

 

[super rat]

Well lets see Reed started the nationals on a 250 then jumped on the 450 now he is back on the 250. You think Yamaha is jerking the guys chain or is he picking what bike he wants to ride? You think Reed is so special that Yamaha is letting their top rider pick what he goes the best on when the rest of the factories are telling their top guys to ride a bike that putts them at a disadvantage? I don't claim to be an insider but I do follow the sport and read every thing I can find and Bubba and RC have both said that they have the choice to ride a thumper and they are both on 2strokes for the SX season. And if those guys think the 2 stroke is better right now it will be a long long time before it makes a differnce to guys like you and I.

 

[Okiewan]

I thought Reed finished the Nat's on the 450? Apparently he felt the 450 was an advantage, or he would have never switched would he?

I don't think there's any doubt the 2-stroke is (at this point) better suited to SX. I've also read (for what that's worth) that RC is considering the 450 for the Nats in 04. Does that make it better than a 2-stroke? That would put just about all the top guys on 450's.

 

[super rat]

Thats my point, we are spliting hairs. For someone to say thumpers are better by a long shot is stupid. If some one thinks that to be competative they need to be on a thumper they are lost. Like my man falvor flav once said "Don't belive the hype"

If you want to ride a thumper good for you. I'll still be rolling my 125 up to the line in the vet class knowing that its the rider that wins the race not the bike.

 

[nikki]

Originally posted by super rat
For someone to say 4 bangers are way better than 2 strokes is stupid. If they were even alittle better every factory rider with a choise would be on one.

Hmmm.... I posted this thread about 125's vs. 250F's ONLY.... and lets see...

Honda Pro 125 class racers for 2004 SX/AX:

Factory Honda:
Nate Ramsey, CRF250R SX (west)

Factory Connection/Honda:
Travis Preston, CRF250R SX (west)
Chris Gosselaar, CRF250R SX (west)
Ryan Mills, CR125R SX (east)
Billy Laninovich, CRF250R SX (east)

Motosports Outlet/MSR/White Brothers Honda:
Tiger Lacey, CRF250R SX (east)
Justin Buckelew, CRF250R SX (west)
Sean Collier, CRF250R SX (west)

Moto XXX:
Larry Ward, CRF250R SX (east)
Tim Weigand, CRF250R SX (west)

Lamson Racing:
Steve Lamson, CRF250R SX (east)

Team MXPrivateer:
Jimmy Wilson, CRF250R SX (west)
Tommy Barron, CRF250R SX (east)
Matt Shue, CRF250R SX (east)

Tamer Motorsports (Arenacross):
Buddy Antunez, CRF250R
Brad Hagseth, CRF250R
Justin Brayton, CRF250R


Notice anything? :) Have you ever rode a late model CR 125 - what a turd! :silly: And from what I have heard, Mills in not very happy about having to ride the only 125 (yes, out of 17 125 class Pro riders, he's the only one on a 2-stroke and it was NOT by choice).

And if you wanna keep going even more....

Yamaha of Troy:
Mike Brown, Danny Smith, Kelly Smith, Josh Hansen, and Brock Sellards - all riding 250F's this year as well

Motoworld Racing:
Andrew Short, Steve Boniface, Shae Bentley, Bobby Kinery, Daryl Hurley - all riding 250F's this year as well

And if Kawazuki can manufacture a solid and reliable bike.... and KTM can catch up with the others... it's all over.

Sorry but the 125 is dead.

 

[XRpredator]

Okie pondered the following:
How much longer do you the the KX500 being produced?

Until Kawasaki comes out with a 450 thumper.

Like 'em or not, the two stroke is living on borrowed time.

and I love how Nikki calls the CR125 a turd! LMAO!!

 

[BEEF706]

Hey Jay, my Honda dealer has alreaqdy sold 3 in a week, when I asked how many he ordered Terry only smiled and said "more than they will let me have" when I asked how many 125's he ordered this year he said "less than they will let me get away with" for what it's worth even I (WHO AM A LONG WAY FROM 125 SIZE) enjoyed the 250f and would never consider the 125 (Niki was actually being kind).

 

[OnAnySunday]

The KX500 has been built all these years (without any major changes) for us desert dwellers.
There have been no changes, because that would mean increased bottom line.
Right now the bike is cheap to make and the desert guys dont mind putting a few mods into makin the bike more offroad worthy vs the alternative.
That is Kawy axing the big smoker.
At about $5,000 the bike is a deal even without any price bikering -w- the dealer! :)
Heck if i wasnt so "pro-honda thumper" my XR650R would have been a KX500.

Also , when the CR450F first came out i figured that there would be a ton of em going through my freindly local Honda dealers front doors.
I asked him, and he said he sold mebbe 2 or 3. :eek:
Havent even seen a 250F in there yet. So yea, it might depend on where your at.
Will have to ask about those 250f's now. (curious)
I know he sells the snot out of CR's and XR's.
Mebbe were just not "trendy" here in the high desert. :laugh:

 

[kdxtodd]

your so right super rat, you said everything i wanted to say, 2-stroke minds think alike ha ha. Buying a 4-stroke just because people say its faster or you think you need an advantage IS stupid. I have have lots of friends that I go riding with that have parents that buy them whatever they want. When the 250f first came out my buddy ryan sold his 02yz125 and got his parents to buy him one. My other buddy justin also got one. Justin now rides a 04kx125 and is blistering fast. Ryan now rides a 03ktm125 and pulls holshots over many 250fers. Im not saying that a 125 is the best for everyone. Im saying that a rider needs to ride a bike that they feel comfortable with. I also have many friends that ride 250fs and absolutly love them. They are also a little less skilled than ryan and justin. I also notice that slower riders tend to float toward a 250f instead of a 125, not all but most. Riding a 250f with 2ftlbs more torque but not knowing how to ride is not going to make you fast. Im also aware of how long 250fs pull above 30hp, but we don't race on dynos.
You guys need to remember, 2-strokes are not being outlawed!. I hate it when people say that 2-strokes will be outlawed, it drives me crazy! Its any motor that does not meet the emmission standard in 2008 or 10(I think they pushed the date back a few years, not sure) Right now, no 4-stroke motocross bike passes that emmission standard! 2-strokes may have a more difficult time passing, but it can be done. you can make a 2-stroke pass by leaning it way out and running it on a special oil( blue marble).

as for all those honda riders on crfs, how many are factory riders? Because of the unleaded gas rule, privateers have to buy expensive gas to run in their 2-stroke bikes. Most privateers are just switching to 4-strokes because they cant afford to buy 30-40 dollars a gallon race gas to use with their highly tuned 2-strokes.

Chad reed finished the outdoor season on a 2-stroke.

 

[490Dave]

OnAnySunday! from what i remember them telling me, the 250Fs would arrive sometime in November (later than the other 04s) but even they will tell ya, this isn't Honda country. Zook's and Kawi's seem to be the norm, ala Fun Center,but i doubt for long.

As far as competition goes the thumpers are gaining the advantage, maybe the others will make a "KDX" type machine to keep the zingers alive for the average off-roader type.