Future of 2 & 4 strokes?

nephron

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#1
Every once in a while I get to thinking about this situation and kind of start to laugh about how "out of control" everybody's getting here with these 4 strokes, and the thought that the 2 strokes are gonna get outlawed soon....and blaah,blaah....you'd better get a 4 stroke soon,....blaah,blaah....yama-frickin-ha says so!....blaah,blaah...there will be no 2 strokes soon...etc.

Well, my opinion is that day will NEVER come. Or, if it does come, it will be short-lived. Why?

1) 2-strokes have been irreversibly integrated into industry, from chainsaws to dirtbikes to large 2 cycle CAT motors. Simply mandating their extinction will require too massive an expenditure and/or effort, and would probably even threaten the livelihood of some of the companies that produce them. This would obviously create a huge "stink" and might even threaten the economy. I don't know the numbers, but I would guess the problem would be huge.

2) MXA, it appears, is at least largely, if not primarily, responsible for propagating rumors of the 2 stroke demise because:
a) Their relationship with Yamaha is not too dissimilar from the Clinton/Lewinski phenomenon. AND, they seem to show absolutely NO sense of responsibility, equality, objectivity, etc. They are like a woo'd child in a candy store, and it's obvious.
b) All the 12-16 y/o kids read MXA like it's the bible of dirtbiking, and thus tend to, as the largest readership, propagate anything that exists between the 14,563 Blue paged ads existent in the standard publication.

3) I don't care how much technology you throw at a 4 stroke. If you threw that much at a 2 stroke, you'd still end up with an "at least" as functional product with LESSER weight. Try to tell a logger: "Uh, sorry sir, this will only take a second. I'll just slip this 5hp briggs & stratton onto your chainsaw, or er...rather, I'll just weld your chainsaw to the motor base...:scream:

4) There are a lot of people that will throw fits. BIG fits. INCLUDING ME.

5) Has anybody ever done a "study" looking at the actual contribution of the relative "few" 2 cycle engines in comparison to the millions of cars, power plants and old "exempt" cars out there ((clear throat)..like my 68 vette with 555 bbc :o )

6) Look at history: many a "concept" has been "outlawed" by the EPA historically, only to find its way back into society through another loop-hole. Consider the sad oppression on the vehicle industry in the late 60's/early 70's. Big blocks are back being produced and Chevy makes more BBC's that they can't keep up with production. Admittedly, although most of the production bbc's go into fuel-injected pickups, most bbc's (currently made by GM,MERLIN,etc.) go into "exempt" cars and race cars. Thus, they found their way back into the cars that they were initially pulled from.:)

There are multiple other reasons, but I don't have the time to go on. In reference to Dennis Miller, "that's my opinion, of course, I could be wrong.." ;)
 
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#3
I dont know for sure but I would think the small % of all fuel buring motors that are 2 strokes would not cause a significant enough amount of damage to justify outlawing them. I think people who complain about 2 strokes killing the planet are either mis-informed, or not informed at all. probably the latter. the trash those people take to the dump every week probably does more damage...
 
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#4
Im with keith on this one.You do more harm to the enviroment not recycling and stuff everyday than riding everyday.Just think about how much plastic and paper you throw away everyday.:eek:
 

XRpredator

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#5
The problem, nephron, is that 2-stroke development is going to stangnate if the EPA goes through with their plans. Also, if the manufacturers are able to continue building 2-strokes, they'll be closed-course machines only. What are guys going to do with their used bikes, since they won't be legal for off-road use?

Don't get me wrong, I want to keep the spooge machines around, since they make things interesting. But, I have to agree with <gasp!> MXA. When the factories start putting their #1 riders on 4-strokes, 2-stroke development will die.:(
 

nephron

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#6
XRP,

I understand all the implications of what you said up there, and really it all comes down to about the same thing. The EPA is pushing/encouraging 4 stroke technology development by manufacturers, and 2 stroke development is stagnating. That's not difficult to understand. The question I have is 1) What does the EPA have on the manufacturers other than (probably idle) threats, and 2) If the EPA is not paying them off OR threatening them, what the hell are they doing it for?

Now we've got these idiotic magazines leading the charge, with the EPA FOLLOWING suit and probably making policy changes based on what Hinz/Jody have to say. If not, they're at least propagating this stuff, and influencing youngsters to ride the 4 strokes.

So please explain to me WHY this is happening. I'd sure like to know.:)
 

HiG4s

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#7
Originally posted by XRpredator
The problem, nephron, is that 2-stroke development is going to stangnate if the EPA goes through with their plans. Also, if the manufacturers are able to continue building 2-strokes, they'll be closed-course machines only. What are guys going to do with their used bikes, since they won't be legal for off-road use?

Don't get me wrong, I want to keep the spooge machines around, since they make things interesting. But, I have to agree with <gasp!> MXA. When the factories start putting their #1 riders on 4-strokes, 2-stroke development will die.:(
Many countries in the world still allow 2-stroke street bike. Over half the dirt bikes sold in the world are sold outside the US. All the 2-stroke dirt bikes in the world are built ouside the US. Even if the EPA got them banned from the US, 2-stroke advancment would keep marching forward as the rest of the world is not governed by the US EPA.
 
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#8
I agree, with the factory riders on four strokes two srokes are dead as far as R&D money goes. I myself have traveled overseaes to many countires and the fact is that they ride for necessity, not leisure. The bikes ridden in most of Asia and the subcontinent are smaller bore 4 stroke enduros. Built for economy not for speed and power The countires tax the s&*t out of the gas! It ends up being around 5 US dollars a gallon. The fact is the US has the highest amount of disposable income in the world. If the four strokes start winning then that is what it is all about right? THAT IS WHAT DRIVES SALES!

I just got back into riding and I like the 2 strokes myself.

Sincerely,

Riz
 
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#9
Ummmm you guys have overlooked something. So what if 2-strokes are never banned. That doesnt matter. What good is a 2-stroke or 4-stroke rather which no place to ride!!!!!! The only thing I am worried about it the future is riding space. I say in about 50 years there will be close to none. So I have to ride as much as I can now. Thats the truth. If you don't believe it then open your eyes. Each year urbanization grows bigger and bigger into the forests you used to ride on, the favorite unused riding spot, and into your country cottage on the lake. Sorry guys but this sport is doomed. Its inevitable. ALL YOU CAN DO IS SLOW THE PROGRESS. YOU CANT STOP IT.
 
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#10
I agree. When I was a kid we could ride anywhere. Now that I am starting to ride again, it is an hour drive to ride. THIS SUCKS> Hell yesterday I got pulled over riding my RM 125 around the neighborhood. HAHA! I was jumping driveway curbs. It is all I could do I did not have time to drive out to the riding areas and needed a fix.

No ticket though the cop was cool.

Sincerely,

Riz
:confused: :confused:
 

DougRoost

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#11
Incidentally, auto manufacturers keep tinkering with 2 stroke engine development due to their inherent size, weight, and power benefits. They keep working on it hoping they can overcome the emissions drawbacks, especially if coupled with an electric motor in a hybrid application. Still, no 2 stroke cars as yet, but at least there are R&D programs constantly looking at it.

I wish I could agree with nephron that it could never happen but governments aren't always the most rational bodies, especially given their ability to be swayed by minority groups with strong lobbying power and money. Dirt bikes are a very different industry than lawn equipment. Even there, much more efficient OHV engines have replaced the old Briggs and Stratton engines in lawnmowers, making 2 strokes pretty much only used for lightweight applications on unlevel use (chainsaws and weedeaters). Add to that if 4 strokes start dominating races, then the manufacturers will lose interest anyway, both from an R&D standpoint as well as a lobbying standpoint. It definitely could happen.

I ride a thumper but I do enjoy 2-smokes, too. I ride mostly trails -- it's kind of the right tool for the job thing. It would be a shame to lose our choice. Wouldn't it be strange if the automakers saved the 2 stroke engine for the dirt bike companies?
 

XRpredator

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#12
Originally posted by nephron
So please explain to me WHY this is happening. I'd sure like to know.:)
Two words: Cali-Fornia!:p The EPA is going to follow CARB, no matter how inane or asanine their regulations are.

There are bikes sold all over the world, some pretty trick stuff we'll never see, but I think the big 4 see the big $ in the USA. They'll build what will sell in the USA. Or at least what the EPA will let them sell.

At least they are sinking some yen into 4-stroke development, and that (as Satan's spawn Martha Stewart would say) is a good thing.
 

GlowMe

#13
Thank GOD that I am not in California any longer. They are getting insane over there. Green tag, red tag. Does it matter where you ride your 2 stroke? I guess it damages the ozone more if you ride in the woods than if you ride on a MX track. Boy, those tree huggers sure are smart. I never would have figured that one out. And I like Biology.
:eek: :think ;)
 

Daniniowa

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#15
It's all about money. No matter how you look at it, it's all about money.

The question shouldn't be the engine design. It should be what fuel should we use? Petroleum, however you refine it and use it in an internal combustion engine creates emissions. Hydrogen, alcohol, methanol, and different vegetable oils are the answers. Hmm, hydrogen + oxygen = water. No emissions there.

But anyone want to take a guess how much money it will take to build a hydrogen powered motorcycle? Now how much to build a hydrogen (gas) station? Now how much to build them all over the world? See the problem?

And dont' worry about losing your existing bikes, there is always a grandfather claus. Do worry about future riding areas. Buy land now, buy lots of your very own riding land.