whitesands26

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Just wondering if anyone here has any experience with Ultimate 2 fuel for two strokes....I've seen posts on Ultimate 4 but not ultimate 2 which has a higher octane rating the U 4...

Been usuing C12 with great success but would like to try this oxygenated fuel (Ult. 2).

Any info will be appreciated

Thanks
 

Rich Rohrich

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Are you referring to VP MR-2?
 

holeshot

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Originally posted by Rich Rohrich
Are you referring to VP MR-2?


Your favorite magazine has a blurb this month called "The cold hard truth about race gas" which includes some info on VP's Ultimate 2 (95 octane), which they claim has a 6.2 percent oxygen content (illegal for AMA competition). It's a sister to the Ultimate 4 but it's made for two strokes. MR2 is a different VP fuel than Ulitimate 2 and costs more.

Their tests claim an actual gain of 1 horsepower for a 125 and 2 horsepower on a 250.

Don't hold me to any of the facts or figures, because I copied directly from MX action. :laugh:
 

MikeS

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At the last discussion (8 weeks ago) with my VP rep. I said I used alot of Ult 4 in our 2 strokes with great results. In our 85 with a 105 kit it had detonated some and I splashed some C12 in. He stated that was a big mistake to use Ult 4 in a 2 stroke and adding C12 was a bigger mistake. I asked WHY? he could not answer other than that is what he was told. VP fuel charts did show Ult 4 as a good fuel for stock 2 strokes. I then asked for him to have someone call me as I peddle alot of this stuff to local racers. I got no response so I called well I was told that all the chemical dudes are working with the drag race guys and it would be a few weeks for a Real answer.

Now someone says Ultimate 2 is out...oh boy another marketing tool. VP is starting to P me off. I find that marketing like this spoils the true good products.

I guess I may take a road trip out for some Phillips products just for myself. They seem much more stream line and application specific.
 

Rich Rohrich

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There was a rumor going around that VP was going to do a two-stroke specific version of Ultimate 4. They haven't responded to my previous inquiries and their website makes no mention of it in the technical docs so I wasn't sure if it actually existed. Thanks for the clarification. :thumb:

It makes sense that you could tweak U4 and put a bigger hook in the end of the distillation curve to help cool the piston crown and make the distillation curve of the fuel more two-stroke friendly. You could also add a heavy aromatic to U4 and accomplish pretty much the same thing assuming the octane requirement can be met.

Mike - Dr. Dave Redszus has a product called B04 that will accomplish this very thing if you are interested.
 
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MikeS

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Thanks Rich

I was venting about the VP stuff. I hate when they keep changing stuff as it only confuses the customer. I need to spend a half hour expaining it. I only peddle this stuff to support my own habits :) Plus you learn alot too.
Dr Dave mentioned that stuff and I will have to look into it as B04 has addressed more than one issue when blending...

Mike
 

bclapham

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and here was me thinking good ole Rich was at the cutting edge of fuel research, yet he has been caught napping and even got scooped by MXA! :eek: :moon: i am bitterly disapointed.

Rich, would you like me to send you this issue so we can fully bring you up to speed with the finer aspects of racing fuel? :confused: is there anything else we can help you with? ;)

i am just wondering if now would be a bad time to ask you to check out the wear marks on my old 58mm piston, LOL :) but moreover, i am hope he appreciates my moronic sense of humor!

cheers
 

Rich Rohrich

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Originally posted by bclapham
Rich, would you like me to send you this issue so we can fully bring you up to speed with the finer aspects of racing fuel? :confused:

Bruce - I'm not sure my feeble little pea-brain could handle that level of information overload. :eek: In fact just thinking about it makes me want to lie down with a damp cloth on my head. :confused:
 
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Rich Rohrich

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Originally posted by Senior KX Rider
I would like to hear more about why you should not run the ultimate 4 in 2 strokes.

SKXR - In a full tilt two-stroke the MON rating of Ultimate 4 might be inadequate, but in most dirt bike applications it should work quite well. The fact that the same VP rep said not to use C12 in two-strokes makes me wonder if he is selling the fuel or :scream: huffing it
 

bclapham

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LOL- did you no there is no point in running C12 in a stock 2 stroke since it doesnt make anymore power than pump gas as shown on a back to back dyno run?
 

MikeS

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LMAO bruce.....

Rich
The rep ment do not mix C12 with Ult4. Actually do not blend any fuels. I got a chuckle since VP uses C12 and C16 for bases in their CMP and DRT outlaw fuels.
I also spoke to Doctor Dave and he said that B02 and B03 (not sure if you knew about it) is what he has on the "shelf" for blending.
B03 is neat but has a boiling point of 80-85 degrees but it does not change the dielectric readings like B02. He is sending me a batch of B02 to play with :). He said be careful...too much is bad.

SRKX
I agree with Rich 100% . In our mod bike RM105 and our TM125 (it revs way out) both of these experienced detonation at hi RPM. The RM105 was fitted with a digital PVL ignition and that cured the problem as did a spash of C12 or VP110(red).
 

steve125

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After my dyno testing, I spent quite a few weekends trying to choose which fuel combo felt best to me on the track. The mr2 and ultimate4 at a 50/50 mix, was a very good combo. But an even better combo and the best ive ever felt out of a race fuel was the 50/50 mix of mrx01 and the Ultimate4. A crisp throttle response and a hard pump fuel like mid hit leading to a strong top with no detonation. Both of these fuel mixes required 1 richer on the main jet and  1 clip richer on the needle. These extra OX fuels really make power and will change your jetting, so watch out for that.

Rich! finally ive got away from 50/50 with pump fuel! and glad to say will never go back. At least as long as Ultimate 4 or 2 is available :worship:  
 

Rich Rohrich

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Originally posted by MikeS
LMAO bruce.....

B03 is neat but has a boiling point of 80-85 degrees but it does not change the dielectric readings like B02.

... and it doesn't add oxygen so the jetting doesn't shift the same as B02. It's like a bottle of instant throttle response. I think it's Pentane based.

Last time I talked to Dave he said B04 should be available by now, something must have delayed it.

The combination of those three additives certainly opens up a TON of possibilities ;)
 

Rich Rohrich

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Originally posted by steve125
Rich! finally ive got away from 50/50 with pump fuel! and glad to say will never go back.

COOL, it's good to hear all your research has paid dividends Steve. :thumb:
 

steve125

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Rich, yea I put in the time to test. But without your thoughts and info provided here on DRN, heck i would probably be still using Sunoco purple :scream: This place is the best and ive got a fast motor to prove it. :thumb:
 

Rich Rohrich

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Originally posted by steve125
Rich, yea I put in the time to test. But without your thoughts and info provided here on DRN, heck i would probably be still using Sunoco purple :scream: This place is the best and ive got a fast motor to prove it. :thumb:


Glad we could help. :thumb:
 

RYDMOTO

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Hey Rich,I was at Dr.Daves home about a month ago.I bought some B-35 for my CR250.Since then I purchased an '04 CR450.He sold me a quart of some orange looking liquid that he said would add response to my 250.I have to call him or maybe you know if I can use it on my 450.It does leave a nice aroma in the kitchen tho.lol True to his humour,Dave told me he put some of this liquid on the ground and lit it on fire and he was rather shocked to watch the flame travel to his hand from just the vapors left behind!...lol One other question...has anybody tried the thunder alley on their '04 CR450?
 
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MikeS

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I should have the stuff "B02" this Friday :)

If it was B03 then it boils at 85 deg F so the vapor trail would form very fast. This stuff should enhance thottle response alot. In colder temps it should wake up the fuel alot..

Rich can you elaborate before I blow something up or myself :flame:
 

Rich Rohrich

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B02 is definitely MTBE based and will lean things out due to the additional O2. I've used as much as 35% without hurting anything other than the fuel curve. But here's the hook, in addition to the fuel curve changes B02 has an effect similar to advancing the ignition timing. It shortens the initial ignition delay period, and causes a faster pressure rise. Even though it has a high octane rating it can easily cause engines to knock if you over do it. I have found that it's best to sneak up on it. The ability to adjust the ignition curve with a programmable 3d ignition can be a real advantage when playing with this stuff.

B03 is I believe Pentane based with no additional O2 so it will tend to make things a bit richer due to more vaporized fuel making it's way to the combustion chamber. In the past I've used Acetone in an attempt to get a similar effect when the air temps are down, but based on conversations with Dr. Dave his blend should work much better. No surprise there. :thumb:

B04 is something with a high boiling point, probably an aromatic hydrocarbon that can be used to help cool the piston crown.

I'll probably be talking to Dr. Dave this weekend so I'll try and get some additional specific details. I've been thinking about doing a full interview with him for a while now. Maybe this is a good starting point to work from.
 
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bclapham

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Originally posted by Rich Rohrich
B03 is I believe Pentane based with no additional O2 so it will tend to make things a bit richer due to more vaporized fuel making it's way to the combustion chamber. In the past I've used Acetone in an attempt to get a similar effect when the air temps are down, but based on conversations with Dr. Dave his blend should work much better. No surprise there.

hmmmm. Rich: ive read a couple of your posts about the use of acetone and i think its a bad idea, especially to get the similar effects to penane- surely, it would yield a similar effect to adding any oxygen source to a fuel and actually lean things out rather than richen them up a bit on a cold day. i cant see how acetone will work any different to MTBE really since they have the same boiling point too. (56 deg C when we are talking in proper scientific terms and not the 100 year old silly ASTM terms! :confused: )

so before everyone dumps theri wifes nail polish remover into their gas tank rushes out to the local WalMart to pick up a bottle of acetone in search for the magic fuel additive elixier, be warned! acetone mixes real well with water; every lab in the world even uses it to wash the water from wet glassware!

so, Rich, ive asked this question before but i think it got lost somewhere down the line: what about methyl acetate? its got nearly the same BP as MTBE, it isnt that hygroscopic and its got two oxygens! :p i know the ester could be considered labile, but then arnt most premix oils containing esters?
 

Rich Rohrich

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Originally posted by bclapham

hmmmm. Rich: ive read a couple of your posts about the use of acetone and i think its a bad idea, especially to get the similar effects to penane- surely, it would yield a similar effect to adding any oxygen source to a fuel and actually lean things out rather than richen them up a bit on a cold day.

so, Rich, ive asked this question before but i think it got lost somewhere down the line: what about methyl acetate? its got nearly the same BP as MTBE, it isnt that hygroscopic and its got two oxygens! :p i know the ester could be considered labile, but then arnt most premix oils containing esters?

Bruce - I used acetone in the past mostly as a starting and warm-up aid when it was cold out (it gets down to -20 F during ice races at times) because I knew it would vaporize better than the existing race fuel and it was easy to find in quantity at the local paint store. Safer than ether and reasonably effective, but I realize it's far from an optimum solution. When I kept the percentage low ( < 8%) it didn't screw up the fuel curve too terribly.
I'll be the first to admit it was a pretty weak approach and not one I would necessarily recommend to anyone. When you are trying to find a solution to a problem you tend to use what's readily available, and have I mentioned lately that I've had a lot more failure than success in searching for the answers? :)

Methyl acetate is an interesting thought. I'll have to give it some additional thought tonight when my brain isn't full of router and switch gibberish. :thumb:
 
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bclapham

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if i ever get my bike dialled in to a decent point where i am confident, i may way have a look into the methyl acetate. the trouble is, some tosser :silly: that shall remain nameless sold me one of his old carbs but for some reason it was missing a real important part and so i spent 4 hours stuck out in the desert trying to understand why it ran like crap despite trying every jetting an clip combination ever known to man!:p
 
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