LOL...
Don't bet on that now.
Don't bet on that now.
Jeremy, is this true???
- Thread starter KawieKX125
- Start date
As far as I could tell Jeremy didn't get involved until the post by Greg. Should he have sat idle after comments like that? And talk about " BOY'S CLUB " you should have been at High Point! Whats next? If a rider has a sticker on that is not one of the series sponsors will he have to take it off his bike?
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John Curea
LIFETIME SPONSOR
- Feb 29, 2000
- 177
- 0
07,
You are right, its a no win situation. BUT unfortunately I serious doubt that you understand the severity of the claim against Jeremy.
It comes down to a "damned if you do" or "damned if you dont" situation. If we sit back and ignore Gregs ludicrious claim, there will be a good number of readers wondering if silence is an admission of guilt.
Its actually a no brainer, you have to defend.
Jeremy spent over 11 years of his life in pursuit of developing a quality suspension company, 11 years of mostly 7 days a week, 15 - 20 hour days commitment to providing the best suspension on the market. You dont just turn your back on a potetionally damaging claim which is completely unsubstantiated from a major competitor. Jeremy might wear his emotions on his sleeve from time to time, but you always know exactly where he stands.
Does this "smack" of "boys club"? ....You better believe it does pal.
I researched all the major suspension companies before deciding to persue an allegiance with MX-TECH. I find myself to be in a very fortunate situation. Of all the companies out there, not one comes even remotely close to the quality of the suspension components and to the technical support of the associates. We as associates must maintain this same level of quality to our customers or we are history, plain and simple.
Its a very good system to maintain quality control for all of MX-TECH customers.
I hope this helps you understand the seriousness of the fraudulent claim by the head technician at Pro Action.
Take Care, John
EricGorr
Super Power AssClown
- Aug 24, 2000
- 708
- 1
WOW The suspension forum is back to being the OK Coral!
The evolution of the common shock and fork valve is sometimes blurred and tough to trace. The US Patent office may be a good baseline for OEM parts but the aftermarket racing business reacts with valve designs and shim stacks at a similar rate as the obstacles encountered on the racetrack by a speeding dirt bike. So much development has occured since Cors Hullman invented the modern piston and valve in his garage in Holland in 1973. Cors' HULCO shock the backbone of the Forward Mounted Shock Revolution of the mid-1970s. I'm sure if Cors could read English he'd get a big laugh out of anybody claiming they invented anything related to his valve. Because before his good work, suspension damping was controlled by little oil holes and springs.
The thing is, a variety of valve designs can accomplish nearly the same result. Whose to say what works best for any particular rider on a given track obstacle. The world of suspension tuning is full of opinions. There are those who argue that they can revalve a stock shim set without changing a piston. I've watched this evolution for years and I think that making an aftermarket piston assembly enables greater flexibility in tuning over most OEM designs. The fact that the dirt bike industry has three different aftermarket valve designs, all with interesting theories of operation, from guys with credible technical backgrounds. I'd like to see this thread run towards a presentation of the way each set up works and some questions and comments on from the people who design and tune.
The big difference in suspension tuners is how they do business, what they offer with regards to varying levels of tuning, warranties, support programs and such. MX-Tech and Pro-Action are set up differently but both are doing responsible good quality work with excellent customer support. Maybe in the future a thread can be started to cover the differences between tuning companies. I'm lucky to of been friends with George and Jeremy for as many as 21 years so I understand how they're personalities and racing experience influenced the way they tune for different riders. It would be beneficial for you all to know that too.
Maybe the reason nobody from Pro-Action has commented on this thread is because the initial response was a little hasty. But consider things from Greg's perspective. Heres a hard working guy trying to support a family, he gets hounded for 3 hours by Kawie125 at Southwick and shows him some stuff about suspension and talks candidly about the industry. After reading Kawie's remarks about teaching him about suspension so he can make side money out of his garage off his friends, Greg's boss George Quay is probably a bit pissed off about all of this and for good reason. I may be a bit biased because this same kid calls me 3 times a week and demands information on how to fix bikes he claims to own, but I'm sure there just bikes he's making money on from his friends by working on them in his garage. One time he even expected me to walk him through a complete shock rebuild over the phone at 11:00PM This whole thread is ridiculous because Kawie has caused embarrassment and hard feelings between competitors in the suspension business and drawn reactions from so many people. I think the best way he can redeem himself is to buy a lifetime membership in DRN. How about it Kawie? You could just tack on another $13.90 to the next 10 bikes that you work on out of your garage, that you're able to fix from the information and customers you get from DRN. Plus you're dad will like it because its tax deductible!
Let's see that Lifetime DRN Membership badge around your avatar soon!
The evolution of the common shock and fork valve is sometimes blurred and tough to trace. The US Patent office may be a good baseline for OEM parts but the aftermarket racing business reacts with valve designs and shim stacks at a similar rate as the obstacles encountered on the racetrack by a speeding dirt bike. So much development has occured since Cors Hullman invented the modern piston and valve in his garage in Holland in 1973. Cors' HULCO shock the backbone of the Forward Mounted Shock Revolution of the mid-1970s. I'm sure if Cors could read English he'd get a big laugh out of anybody claiming they invented anything related to his valve. Because before his good work, suspension damping was controlled by little oil holes and springs.
The thing is, a variety of valve designs can accomplish nearly the same result. Whose to say what works best for any particular rider on a given track obstacle. The world of suspension tuning is full of opinions. There are those who argue that they can revalve a stock shim set without changing a piston. I've watched this evolution for years and I think that making an aftermarket piston assembly enables greater flexibility in tuning over most OEM designs. The fact that the dirt bike industry has three different aftermarket valve designs, all with interesting theories of operation, from guys with credible technical backgrounds. I'd like to see this thread run towards a presentation of the way each set up works and some questions and comments on from the people who design and tune.
The big difference in suspension tuners is how they do business, what they offer with regards to varying levels of tuning, warranties, support programs and such. MX-Tech and Pro-Action are set up differently but both are doing responsible good quality work with excellent customer support. Maybe in the future a thread can be started to cover the differences between tuning companies. I'm lucky to of been friends with George and Jeremy for as many as 21 years so I understand how they're personalities and racing experience influenced the way they tune for different riders. It would be beneficial for you all to know that too.
Maybe the reason nobody from Pro-Action has commented on this thread is because the initial response was a little hasty. But consider things from Greg's perspective. Heres a hard working guy trying to support a family, he gets hounded for 3 hours by Kawie125 at Southwick and shows him some stuff about suspension and talks candidly about the industry. After reading Kawie's remarks about teaching him about suspension so he can make side money out of his garage off his friends, Greg's boss George Quay is probably a bit pissed off about all of this and for good reason. I may be a bit biased because this same kid calls me 3 times a week and demands information on how to fix bikes he claims to own, but I'm sure there just bikes he's making money on from his friends by working on them in his garage. One time he even expected me to walk him through a complete shock rebuild over the phone at 11:00PM This whole thread is ridiculous because Kawie has caused embarrassment and hard feelings between competitors in the suspension business and drawn reactions from so many people. I think the best way he can redeem himself is to buy a lifetime membership in DRN. How about it Kawie? You could just tack on another $13.90 to the next 10 bikes that you work on out of your garage, that you're able to fix from the information and customers you get from DRN. Plus you're dad will like it because its tax deductible!
Let's see that Lifetime DRN Membership badge around your avatar soon!
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:think Hmmm....
Sounds like it's time to fish or cut bait!
Sounds like it's time to fish or cut bait!
KawieKX125
~SPONSOR~
- Oct 9, 2000
- 946
- 0
- Thread starter
-
- #31
C'mon
Wow Eric, that is FAR from the truth. Greg offered to show me some stuff after I sat silently watching him do his stuff. I do not charge my friends to work on their bikes and spend all my free time fixing stuff for them. What goes around comes around. They bring me riding, so I fix their bikes. I do not call you three times a week. FAR from that. Pobably once every couple of weeks. The last time I called you was because I got no response in the thread about the RM you had for sale and my father wanted to buy it as a bike for him. After calling you and finding out it was sold, Rich posted that it was not. Then I posted again, with no response, so I called again and was told that it was not sold. I have NEVER once charged anyone to do work on their bikes. I spend hour upon waking hour working on the same 5 neighborhood bikes week in week out. They offer me money, but I deny it. It all just furthers my knowledge of the bikes. If I were you, I would be honored to be asked for help on multiple occasions from a 16 year old kid. It shows that they TRUST your knowledge.
I called you at 10:00 my time, 9:00 your time asking if you happened to know a certain screw on my shock body was for. I knew how to rebuild it and I believe the phone call lasted all of 2 minutes or so.
You know what, I will NEVER start a thread here, or for that matter post my opinion or experiences. They always seem to get bashed. I will learn sooner or later. Next time, instead of doing a FAVOR for my buddies, I will just tell them I don't want to repair their bike and that they could call you to get all the help they need. Really, if I had known that it was bothering you, I would have stopped. You never seemed bothered or annoyed.
Jaybird, what does your little saying mean?
Wow Eric, that is FAR from the truth. Greg offered to show me some stuff after I sat silently watching him do his stuff. I do not charge my friends to work on their bikes and spend all my free time fixing stuff for them. What goes around comes around. They bring me riding, so I fix their bikes. I do not call you three times a week. FAR from that. Pobably once every couple of weeks. The last time I called you was because I got no response in the thread about the RM you had for sale and my father wanted to buy it as a bike for him. After calling you and finding out it was sold, Rich posted that it was not. Then I posted again, with no response, so I called again and was told that it was not sold. I have NEVER once charged anyone to do work on their bikes. I spend hour upon waking hour working on the same 5 neighborhood bikes week in week out. They offer me money, but I deny it. It all just furthers my knowledge of the bikes. If I were you, I would be honored to be asked for help on multiple occasions from a 16 year old kid. It shows that they TRUST your knowledge.
I called you at 10:00 my time, 9:00 your time asking if you happened to know a certain screw on my shock body was for. I knew how to rebuild it and I believe the phone call lasted all of 2 minutes or so.
You know what, I will NEVER start a thread here, or for that matter post my opinion or experiences. They always seem to get bashed. I will learn sooner or later. Next time, instead of doing a FAVOR for my buddies, I will just tell them I don't want to repair their bike and that they could call you to get all the help they need. Really, if I had known that it was bothering you, I would have stopped. You never seemed bothered or annoyed.
Jaybird, what does your little saying mean?
marcusgunby
LIFETIME SPONSOR
- Jan 9, 2000
- 6,450
- 2
kawi dont think im bashing you but to start any thread by comparing 2 competitors it would be nieve to think it wouldnt end up like this.You are young as you have stated and people should cut some slack for this but posting has responsibilties and you need to think about that as much as say a technical problem.Eric is friends with both the parties concerned so will be more than a little miffed.Your quest for knowledge is a good thing but it is making you take the wrong path.
KawieKX125
~SPONSOR~
- Oct 9, 2000
- 946
- 0
- Thread starter
-
- #33
Marcus, thank you for the helpful comments. I realizy my mistake and am very sorry for posting this here. I should have though about the outcome first. I am truly sorry and it has been bothering me for a couple of days. I am young and every day is a learning experience for me. Everything I do teaches me a valuable life lesson, this is one of them.
Thanks for the support and the lesson.
Thanks for the support and the lesson.
Someone should never be hung for making a mistake. So long as we all learn forom our mistakes (and I'm not just talking about Kawie on this thread) then so be it. Thats what mistakes are for, and the best ones to learn from are your own.
Remember two things
We learn the best lessons from making mistakes, as we never stop learning it unfortunately means that we never stop making 'errors of judgement'.
The only people who don't make mistakes are the ones who never do jack
Remember two things
We learn the best lessons from making mistakes, as we never stop learning it unfortunately means that we never stop making 'errors of judgement'.
The only people who don't make mistakes are the ones who never do jack
S
Saratoga
Wow! Shouldn't this be moved to the flame board? How many Forum rules were violated in these posts? Are you moderators above the law that you yourselves have created? Any average Joe couldn't get away with this, could they?
Nice to see the fire is still burning hot!I can see the smoke from here! I think the previous post has merit with regard to rule bending here. It's clear that there are some issues and hard feelings that aren't going to disappear soon. Maybe we could consider some facts.
1)There's a lot of suspension guys out there and a fixed amount of suspension work
2) some are better than others in fact 50% are below average
3) everyone proceeds differently in their aqqusition of technical knowledge or business based on experience, talent and education or lack thereof.
4)history has shown a number of times that simultaneous development of competing technologies occurs in response to similar needs
5) there are no new tricks just new players
6) the best product technically usually gives way to the best marketing strategy
based on the above I don't see an end to the conflict but since the rules have been broken and this discussion is going nowhere fast I think it's time to shut down this barnyard two-step melee. Whadaya say admins.Are you up to it?
1)There's a lot of suspension guys out there and a fixed amount of suspension work
2) some are better than others in fact 50% are below average
3) everyone proceeds differently in their aqqusition of technical knowledge or business based on experience, talent and education or lack thereof.
4)history has shown a number of times that simultaneous development of competing technologies occurs in response to similar needs
5) there are no new tricks just new players
6) the best product technically usually gives way to the best marketing strategy
based on the above I don't see an end to the conflict but since the rules have been broken and this discussion is going nowhere fast I think it's time to shut down this barnyard two-step melee. Whadaya say admins.Are you up to it?
KawieKX125,
I hope you have learned a valuable lesson here. I didn't realise you were such a young lad. I think that in life you will encounter many situations similar to this whether it's in dirt biking or in your chosen career. From what I read, you seem to have a pattern of asking for alot of information, and I bet you weren't shunned once.
We can obtain a good deal of "credible" information from this place, as well as share anything that interests us in the sport. It also is a good place to feel a sense of community. Many sites you visit will have information that is questionable, at best. I attribute alot of this questionability to the lack of community, to back up information posted, as well as the lack of "documented proffessionals" moderating. This site lacks neither community nor expertise, and for those reasons I felt it worth the few bills I shelled out to help sponsor this site.
Therefore I made the statement above signifying that I too agree with Erics challenge for you to support this site, which obviously enriches your dirtbike knowledge. Maybe I should have said: &$% or get off the pot!:think
I hope you have learned a valuable lesson here. I didn't realise you were such a young lad. I think that in life you will encounter many situations similar to this whether it's in dirt biking or in your chosen career. From what I read, you seem to have a pattern of asking for alot of information, and I bet you weren't shunned once.
We can obtain a good deal of "credible" information from this place, as well as share anything that interests us in the sport. It also is a good place to feel a sense of community. Many sites you visit will have information that is questionable, at best. I attribute alot of this questionability to the lack of community, to back up information posted, as well as the lack of "documented proffessionals" moderating. This site lacks neither community nor expertise, and for those reasons I felt it worth the few bills I shelled out to help sponsor this site.
Therefore I made the statement above signifying that I too agree with Erics challenge for you to support this site, which obviously enriches your dirtbike knowledge. Maybe I should have said: &$% or get off the pot!:think
KawieKX125
~SPONSOR~
- Oct 9, 2000
- 946
- 0
- Thread starter
-
- #38
Jaybird, I would LOVE to help Okie out, but I am VERY low on money now. I just spent alot on a rear wheel that the dealer broke and I go through about 5 gallons of race gas a week!!! When and if I can get a job(I am pressed for time also, summer school and ALOT of homework), I will set some money aside for this site. MAybe I should take all the change I find and put it away. I have made great amounts of money before this way.:think
But, I did learn a VERY valuable lesson from this, maybe even a couple.
But, I did learn a VERY valuable lesson from this, maybe even a couple.
Vos Schola
Member
- Apr 16, 2000
- 44
- 0
Truespode, well said.
Hopefully everyone will be able to learn more then just dirtbike knowledge from DRN.
Hopefully everyone will be able to learn more then just dirtbike knowledge from DRN.
marcusgunby
LIFETIME SPONSOR
- Jan 9, 2000
- 6,450
- 2
Its funny how people act differently depending on where they are eg in a car or say standing in a que(im talking about no one in particular).At work i am arguementative/opionated and generally hard to get on with.Here i could do that easily as no face to face contact makes it easier but i choose not to as the aim of the site is to help each other get the most enjoyment possible.This site is something that enables like minded people to come together and share stuff that geography would normally stop.It(the privilage) could be abused but we all suffer so we make it what we want it to be.
Jeremy Wilkey
Owner, MX-Tech
- Jan 28, 2000
- 1,453
- 0
Freinds here's a little bump to the top. I had actually looked very seriusoly into litigation over this, but ultimalty droped it as I had bigger issues to waste my time on. Contray to Mr. Quays statement no applogies were ever given.
Best Regards,
Jer
Best Regards,
Jer
My how time flys when your having fun. I just read the entire thread. It kinda reads like a WWF match would, that is if ya watch that sort of thing.
Jeremy, your hell on wheels man.! What were you like when ya raced?!
I just had my suspension done, but after reading this, Im tempted to send it to MX TECH just for the hell of it!
Jeremy, your hell on wheels man.! What were you like when ya raced?!
I just had my suspension done, but after reading this, Im tempted to send it to MX TECH just for the hell of it!
How the hell did I miss this thread when it originally was posted?! It was a really good read, even considering I have a Steven King book lying next to my keyboard waiting for me to finish it. I run into things like this all of the time in the car stereo business. People are very opinionated when they are passionate about something. This doesn't necessarily mean they have the knowledge or skill to back up their opinion but, it does go to prove the old saying
"An opinion is like an A-hole, everybody has one "! :p Jeremy, I am saving my change to get a revalve.
"An opinion is like an A-hole, everybody has one "! :p Jeremy, I am saving my change to get a revalve.
KawieKX125
I did not have the same experience you did with PA, while shoping for a tuner I talked to the local PA tuner in NC, we was not overally friendly, and acted bothered when I started asking technical questions about WP suspension components. It is sad to say that I knew a lot more about suspension than he did, I tried to carry on a conversation about the cartridge dia. and rod dia ratio and it's impact on flow. Once he realized I unterstood suspension theory better than he did he got really pissy and blew me off. I called Jermery and asked him the same question and he answered all my question without hesitation, he also took the time to answer all my emails, I honestly felt like I was his one and only customer. I also talked with a couple of MX-tech associates and they were just as friendly. I had Total Control (mx-tech associate) revalve and respring both of my 520SX for MX and my 300EXC for hare scrambles. It is the best money I have ever spent on a bike. Mx-tech will get all my business and thats where I recomend anybody that wants there suspension done right go.
BTW: I know I can't spell and why is there no spell check on this forum?
Jeremy you should not use big technical words like "concentricity" some people will be confused.
I did not have the same experience you did with PA, while shoping for a tuner I talked to the local PA tuner in NC, we was not overally friendly, and acted bothered when I started asking technical questions about WP suspension components. It is sad to say that I knew a lot more about suspension than he did, I tried to carry on a conversation about the cartridge dia. and rod dia ratio and it's impact on flow. Once he realized I unterstood suspension theory better than he did he got really pissy and blew me off. I called Jermery and asked him the same question and he answered all my question without hesitation, he also took the time to answer all my emails, I honestly felt like I was his one and only customer. I also talked with a couple of MX-tech associates and they were just as friendly. I had Total Control (mx-tech associate) revalve and respring both of my 520SX for MX and my 300EXC for hare scrambles. It is the best money I have ever spent on a bike. Mx-tech will get all my business and thats where I recomend anybody that wants there suspension done right go.
BTW: I know I can't spell and why is there no spell check on this forum?
Jeremy you should not use big technical words like "concentricity" some people will be confused.
Kawi sounds like an unusually articulate young man for his age and I think we should cut him some slack. He made a mistake. A lot of kids his age are wasting their time doing nothing or worse. at least he's pursuing a wothwihle endeavor in riding and/or racing and is trying to learn as much as he can about the mechanics and maintenance involved, instead of trying to get someone else to do all the grease monkey work for him. Whatever his motivation, in years to come, he may have learned enough by bugging people to be a worthwhile contributer here, answering questions from 16 year olds himself.
Jeremy Wilkey
Owner, MX-Tech
- Jan 28, 2000
- 1,453
- 0
Yota,
I agree completely. I've had some e-mails back and forth with him subsequently and he's a sharp dude. I really think he actually reminds me a little of me when I was his age except I may have been wasting e-gorrs time.. :)
Regards,
Jer
I agree completely. I've had some e-mails back and forth with him subsequently and he's a sharp dude. I really think he actually reminds me a little of me when I was his age except I may have been wasting e-gorrs time.. :)
Regards,
Jer
marcusgunby
LIFETIME SPONSOR
- Jan 9, 2000
- 6,450
- 2
I like Kawies attitude-he aknowledges his errors and learns from them.Most of the most intelligent people on the planet have learnt most from making mistakes-i think more good inventions have been done this way than from a preconcieved idea.Alot of my suspension findings have been from actually messing something like a valve stack up and finding it does something better than i expected.
tbevy
Member
- Nov 8, 2001
- 16
- 0
Well this has been interesting!!!
A few months back I posted some info on a new base valve that I was developing, and asked all you fellow moto junkies if you thought it would be a good idea if I should go ahead and get a patent on it like I planned.
Well after reading some of the post here I can see it would be a good idea, it's not that I don't trust anybody, and I hope that some of what I read isn't true, but this is a free market system we have, and the best will always rise to the top.
Some day I hope to be a player in this industry, and I plan on doing it with honesty and integrady, and putting the customer first, because that's the way I like to be treated!
In fact I was at a loggers rodeo today, (I live in the sticks)and there was a guy selling Amsoil shock oil, so I told him I do suspension work, and he asked me what I used now, and I told him Spectro...He laughed, and said that "junk" so I said yeh that junk and walked off! There's nothing that turn me off quicker than bad mouthing somebody elses product, may be I'm just crazy for thinking that, but hey...what did our mothers always say, If you can't say something nice...don't say anything at all...
A few months back I posted some info on a new base valve that I was developing, and asked all you fellow moto junkies if you thought it would be a good idea if I should go ahead and get a patent on it like I planned.
Well after reading some of the post here I can see it would be a good idea, it's not that I don't trust anybody, and I hope that some of what I read isn't true, but this is a free market system we have, and the best will always rise to the top.
Some day I hope to be a player in this industry, and I plan on doing it with honesty and integrady, and putting the customer first, because that's the way I like to be treated!
In fact I was at a loggers rodeo today, (I live in the sticks)and there was a guy selling Amsoil shock oil, so I told him I do suspension work, and he asked me what I used now, and I told him Spectro...He laughed, and said that "junk" so I said yeh that junk and walked off! There's nothing that turn me off quicker than bad mouthing somebody elses product, may be I'm just crazy for thinking that, but hey...what did our mothers always say, If you can't say something nice...don't say anything at all...