Loose Moose Results..and bench racing

This email was sent to the UPSandstormers, NEPG and FES.

I met this family during sign up. I talked to Mrs. MW at the finish and she was very happy. I think she was looking for a kiss from Russell B., but Megan would not allow it.

They had a long drive back to Missouri, but they were still smiling on Sunday.

QUOTE
Thanks a ton for your support of the Mini Moose Enduro. What a great job. My 7yr old had a blast!!! He loved the electronic scoring, seeing his name on the screen, standing on the podium, autograph session, and getting his trophy from Mike L.

What a great performance by the host club. And, what an excellent level of professionalism for all the other clubs to follow.

Also, my wife had a blast... and is now talking about doing more races, and possibly about running the Womens super short course at the local enduro series (BJEC).


BTW... The KTM Mini Moose finisher medals were way over the top and Awesome!!! Better awards then some races we have attended.

I can not overstate how good of a job all three entities (NEPG, Host club, and KTM) did, and how much I appreciate seeing my Son and Wife with big smiles on there face.

Thanks,
MW
Boonville, Mo 65233
UNQUOTE

I had fun at the Moose the Mtn was very difficult but looking back know I think it was kind of fun. Would have been more fun to take a 30 min nap half way thru and grab a cold drink or two.Good Job Sandstomers.Got to love the transponder scoring.

Thought I would take a min. to give some feedback to the club about this race as well as ask a question or two.

I've waited to add to this thread for while because I wanted to bring my frustration level down so I wasn't responding out of emotion.

First off, I think everyone would agree riding a dirtbike at Marquette is one of the most fun and enjoyable places to ride anywhere!

Second, everyone knows the different sections of rocky area there are tough,technical and demanding. Those elements as well as the other areas are what create the fun and pleasure of going to ride the Loose Moose.

The trail and course itself were very enjoyable to ride. What I didn't understand was how the race was laid out!

My first question to the club is this: For the level of diffuculty the race was for the average rider, why was it neccessary to make most all the transfer sections trail?

For example: B's and A's had to ride trail that wasn't that easy to the restart of the 5th section on 'The Mountain'. There was road right next to the trail we could've taken. You were already going to take a ton of points in the last 2 sections. What was the thinking or advantage to that decision?

I'm sure it was no big deal to most A riders but for the average B rider it made riding 'The Mountain' not so fun. 'The Mountain' is very, very fun to ride just not under those race conditions. Like I said you were already going to take gobs of points, why make it that much harder?

I didn't ride well so that added to my frustration but I still didn't understand the need to make this race more diffucult than it needed to be. For the average B rider to the C rider there was almost no time at the pauses in between sections to catch much of a blow. It's wasn't like there was a couple of short test sections thrown in to break it up. In my opinion even 1 or 2 short tests can help break up the longer sections and provide a little relief! Is there a reason why there is almost never any short sections in a Loose Moose?

The Sandstormers do an outstanding job hosting races and I have attended for the last several years(even the heat wave of 2005) but I have left the Loose Moose a couple of times frustrated and feeling like I did not have fun riding some of the most fun trail that exists. 2009 was one of those years. Not sure if I will return for 2010. Still feeling some dissapointment.

I just think there must me some way you can still race all the same types of trail and competitively take points without pounding riders into the ground!

I respect the Sandstormers a great deal and hope that none will take offense to my comments! I know its tough to please everyone and I understand I may be in the minority. I can accept that!


Thanks Sandstormers for all your work!!!

I'm sure someone with some real authority will chime in on this, but I do know that the club does NOT set the speed avg. or the reset time. That is done by NEPG, I believe. They preroad it and made us cut out the best 2 miles on the mountain. I guess we could have cut more off if they chose to do so. I assested with arrowing the transfer section for "A" and "B" after gas. I don't think it was difficult at all. If I'm not mistaken, we ran the "C" class through there last year. The reason I believe the road was not used was for safety reasons. It is the only road in, and used by many differant people: 4 wheelers, berry pickers, fisherman.....It can get very busy. (Guns + 4x4+beer+racers=accident waiting to happen.) I'm only speaking for myself here, but this was and will be the last year I help with putting on the Loose Moose. I spent way to much time out on the trails clearing and arrowing, and for what? To get accused of trying to hurt people. (According to racer493) Forget it, I'll race it from now on. Racing the Loose Moose is way easier than working it. I knew I should have raced it this year :bang: :bang: . The conditions were perfect, maybe just a little slick. The mountain and wee wee hills would have been a blast. I heard a fast ol guy say after the race say, "If anyone didn't enjoy this race, they don't deserve to ride a motorcycle." "Just sell the thing now." I couldn't agree with him more. :cool:

fun2ride said:

Thought I would take a min. to give some feedback to the club about this race as well as ask a question or two.

I've waited to add to this thread for while because I wanted to bring my frustration level down so I wasn't responding out of emotion.

First off, I think everyone would agree riding a dirtbike at Marquette is one of the most fun and enjoyable places to ride anywhere!

Second, everyone knows the different sections of rocky area there are tough,technical and demanding. Those elements as well as the other areas are what create the fun and pleasure of going to ride the Loose Moose.

The trail and course itself were very enjoyable to ride. What I didn't understand was how the race was laid out!

My first question to the club is this: For the level of diffuculty the race was for the average rider, why was it neccessary to make most all the transfer sections trail?

Click to expand...

Transfer sections were 1.1 miles, 1.5 miles, 0.1 miles, 1.5 miles to the B section, and 3.1 miles to the A section(this last one was mostly 2 track). The fact that it was trail was announced at the riders meeting.

fun2ride said:

For example: B's and A's had to ride trail that wasn't that easy to the restart of the 5th section on 'The Mountain'. There was road right next to the trail we could've taken. You were already going to take a ton of points in the last 2 sections. What was the thinking or advantage to that decision?

Click to expand...

Like barkbuster said, that trail just wasn't that difficult -- as a matter of fact it was part of the first loop that was used last year (the C riders rode it). We did not use the road as it is the primary road into the area. We need to be concerned about safety, logistics, and the general public. It was prime berry picking season and we did not want bikes buzzing down that particular stretch. We cannot control the riders or the other traffic on that road. That's also the reason the trail wasn't used as timed trail - we didn't want riders crossing the road at race pace. There was a 40 minute pause to give you time to fuel, catch your breath and go the 1.5 miles to the restart.

fun2ride said:

For the average B rider to the C rider there was almost no time at the pauses in between sections to catch much of a blow. It's wasn't like there was a couple of short test sections thrown in to break it up. In my opinion even 1 or 2 short tests can help break up the longer sections and provide a little relief! Is there a reason why there is almost never any short sections in a Loose Moose??

Click to expand...

The first four sections were exactly the same trail as was used last year. The transfer sections and pauses were also exactly the same (correction, the pause between sections 2 and 3 was 5 minutes shorter, and the more challenging MiniMountain trail was not used). Not sure what the question is about the "long sections;" the first four sections were 8, 11, 8 and 13 miles. With 30, 25, and 30 minute pauses in between. In comparison, the first section of the Jackpine (before ANY pause or reset) was 38 miles!
With the National format, sections are laid out so that Bobbitt and Lafferty can't burn them; NEPG does help us decide speed averages and pauses. Each of our sections and the pauses were able to be ridden at half the speed average (so 12mph for every section except section 3 which would have been 15mph), and the rider would still have had time to make the restart on time (albeit with only about 3 to 7 minutes rest).

fun2ride said:

The Sandstormers do an outstanding job hosting races and I have attended for the last several years(even the heat wave of 2005) but I have left the Loose Moose a couple of times frustrated and feeling like I did not have fun riding some of the most fun trail that exists. 2009 was one of those years. Not sure if I will return for 2010. Still feeling some dissapointment.

Click to expand...

Sorry you feel that way. We thought we did a good job this year!

fun2ride said:

I just think there must me some way you can still race all the same types of trail and competitively take points without pounding riders into the ground!

Click to expand...

The big rain did make the B and A sections more difficult. We had already removed over 2 miles of trail from the B section. The rain made the plains really good, but made the B and A sections more difficult. Pretty tough to completely change two sections at the last minute due to unexpected weather.

fun2ride said:

I respect the Sandstormers a great deal and hope that none will take offense to my comments! I know its tough to please everyone and I understand I may be in the minority. I can accept that!

Thanks Sandstormers for all your work!!!

Click to expand...

No offense taken. Some had fun, some didn't (usually has something to do with how big a trophy they went home with...)

Heres some interesting stats:

- 92% of the C riders finished their race (4 sections). Only 77% of B riders finished 4 sections.

- Of the B riders that started the B section, 76% finished.

- Of the A riders that started the A section 87% finished.

Not sure what to think... of the B and A riders that didn't finish, they DNF'd before they even got to their B or A sections!

Transfer sections were 1.1 miles, 1.5 miles, 0.1 miles, 1.5 miles to the B section, and 3.1 miles to the A section

Click to expand...

I understand these distances are short but they just added to the lack of recovery time between each section for those of us needing a bit more of a blow.

Not sure what the question is about the "long sections;" the first four sections were 8, 11, 8 and 13 miles.

Click to expand...

I am comparing to the shorter sections of 3-5 miles at prev. Nationals at Harrison. I don't think anyone thought that race was pussified.

We did not use the road as it is the primary road into the area. We need to be concerned about safety, logistics, and the general public. It was prime berry picking season and we did not want bikes buzzing down that particular stretch. We cannot control the riders or the other traffic on that road. That's also the reason the trail wasn't used as timed trail - we didn't want riders crossing the road at race pace. There was a 40 minute pause to give you time to fuel, catch your breath and go the 1.5 miles to the restart.

Click to expand...

I certainly understand the safety issue. It just made racing the painful 10 mile Mountain section even more painful. The 40 min. pause was literaly only enough time to fuel, catch 1 breath and go.

- 92% of the C riders finished their race (4 sections). Only 77% of B riders finished 4 sections.

Click to expand...

Not sure what to think... of the B and A riders that didn't finish, they DNF'd before they even got to their B or A sections!

Click to expand...

I think it says something statistically that almost half of B riders DNF'ed and another 6 almost hr'd out of the their last section. Also 45% of A riders DNF'ed. I think that speaks volumes.
You would have taken tons of points even if it didn't rain.

I'm only speaking for myself here, but this was and will be the last year I help with putting on the Loose Moose. I spent way to much time out on the trails clearing and arrowing, and for what? To get accused of trying to hurt people. (According to racer493) Forget it, I'll race it from now on.

Click to expand...

I know everyone appreciates your help. I am sure the other club members would hate to lose your efforts. Maybe race/work every other year! Don't be soured by a few opinions.

Fun2ride set your bag of chips down and get with racer493 join the CCC and have some fun rides together. Stay down state and ride the Jeep trails it's real simple.

Transfer sections are a part of all enduros. I don’t think that transfer sections of under 2 miles are killing anybody. You reference Harrison, and I remember transfer sections that were over 10 miles.

Lets take the pause you seem to have the most issues with, the one after section 4. You had a 40 minute pause there. The average B rider dropped 15 in that section (Lafferty and Bobbitt each dropped 2!). Last year, we ran that exact same section (but deleted the MiniMountain trail this year), and the average B rider dropped 13. So, I don’t think a 40 minute pause is inadequate in either case! If you dropped 15 in section 4, you had 25 minutes to gas, flour your nuts, and go 1.5 miles (takes 8 minutes at 12mph). Sorry, not enough time to shower and shave!
Further, last year, we had a 5+ mile transfer (takes 12 minutes at 24mph) to section 5, with similar parameters – average B rider dropping 15 in section 4 and a 40 minute pause. Why do you feel that the pauses this year were inadequate (especially since, as far as I know, last years pauses – which were the same – were adequate)?

My point with the B riders is that more B riders (16) DNF’d the C course, than C riders (3)!
Does that mean that C riders are “better” than the B riders?
Same with the A riders: of the 53 A riders that completed the B section, only 39 chose to continue on to the final section.

I’ll grant that section 5 was challenging – but only due to the rain. Had it been drier, that section would have been the most fun all day! Due to the rain, it was a good test!

IMO, enduros are supposed to be challenging. They should test your endurance and your skill. I thought the sections were representative of what should test the particular rider (sections 1-4 for all riders, section 5 for B riders, and section 6 for A riders). The rain made it a bit more interesting for sections 5 and 6. Mostly it slowed people down and took more points than we anticipated. As far as I know, we had no injuries in either of those sections (other than some bruised egos and wounded pride).

Enduro chairman Frank shipwreck is right now buying more minutes for the MOMMY PHONE. Don't hang up yet you'll get your turn. Thankgod for the fes enduros thats where the real racers are. I heard there thinking about ABC classes.

It was a difficult and challenging coarse, but after all it is a National Caliber Enduro! It is supposed to be tough!!! I have no illusions of being a national caliber rider so dropping alot of points is no big deal. If your tired, pull over, catch your breath and continue on. After all, finishing is the most important thing.

I enjoyed riding it and next year I will be back to be challenged again.

Thanks guys.

I'm sorry to hear that some folks didn't enjoy themselves at the Loose Moose this year. Personally I had a great time! It was my first enduro since Harrison 2007, and I think I did well.

Anyways, I would like to thank all the Sandstormers and everyone else who helped out for putting on a great enduro! If I can only make one race a year, I would choose to race the Loose Moose!

:ride:

The Loose Moose is a well-organized, national-caliber enduro put on by an experienced, dedicated, knowledgeable, and passionate group of enduro riders. Together with Alan Randt and the NEPG, they know what they're doing in laying out the course, setting section lengths, determining pauses, transfer sections, and general flow / pace / momentum of the overall course. Keep in mind that they have a wide range of rider types (Pros to casual trail riders), ages (16 to 66+), and skill levels to consider and please in doing all this - and believe me - they have ours and the sport of enduros best interests in mind. You will also never please 100% of riders – no matter what!

If you think the timed sections or transfers are too long, too difficult, or the course too dangerous - Look in the mirror instead of pointing fingers and trying to assign blame to others. Instead of trying to change the event to cater to your specific weaknesses, look at these as areas where you could improve. :nod:

The ’03 LM was my first enduro, and I didn't finish... Not even close... The last remaining set of checks were closed well before I got there. I blamed myself for lack of skill, speed, ability, and endurance. I didn't finish my second enduro either, the LM in ‘04, and it wasn't the club's fault - it was mine. I DNF'd my 3rd LM in ’05 as well - this time my skills had improved a little and the body was ready, but I failed to maintain / adjust my bike properly, and paid the price. Again, not the club's fault – it was mine.

If you're too tired to continue riding an event, and/or didn't get enough of a break at the pauses, I'd suggest more exercise, training, riding, and a change in diet. If that's too much work or not possible, either don't ride events like the Loose Moose, or don't complain too loudly. At this year’s event I was 9 minutes late arriving to the restart after gas available…. Again, my fault for not calculating the pauses correctly, and spending too much time eating, drinking, and chit-chatting during the break. Do I wish the pause was longer? Yes, it would have saved me 18 points, but I should have been better prepared mentally. :bang:

I've heard only 2 complaints about this year's LM.... And I sure hope that the feedback from 1% of the riders doesn’t turn any club members bitter about helping out at future events (although I think it provides great perspective and insight when you race your own event once in a while).

We as enduro riders are extremely fortunate that the club members and their friends and family volunteer months of planning time and hundreds of man-hours in trail work so that we have the opportunity to ride the terrain up there. The LM has kicked my ass more often than not, but it’s the personal challenge of the event that keeps bringing me back for more. :cool:

Great to hear from the Smit-dog!, as your posts aren't as frequent as they once were!

Amen....Smit-Dog

Well said Bill!!! :nod:

Fun2ride, I'm not soured by opinions, there is no way any club can put on an event that everyone likes. What does sour me is the accusations that I am trying to hurt people that race. If anyone knows me by the amount of arrows and orange paint I put down in a section, they would know I'm doing the best I can to provide a safe enjoyable race.
I just wish the racing world had more Smit-dog's. I remember when he was just a Smit-puppy. Congrads on the race Smit-dog, :cool:
Next year me and the Ohio clan on the same minute. I'll hook up the tow strap for ya, PoBrian :yikes:

We should ALL be thankful that in this day and age that any Club/group/organization, is even willing to put the time and energy, not to mention money, to put on an event.
The michigan Enduro series has slowly been building again after years of demise. Let's not berate those that try.
Even if an event is not to your liking, it's still an event that is available to you.
No club goes out to injure a rider, EVER!! their objective has always been to put on an enduro that challeges the riders, all of them, from AA to C. The terrien in the UP is unique an if not used to the rocks abit scary,but all rideable even if you must slow down. It is an Enduro, which is still a event to challenge the mind, bike and endurance of the rider.

Thank you UP Sandstormer's for weathering yet another storm, and for doing your best to keep the Enduros in Michigan Alive!

Next year me and the Ohio clan on the same minute. I'll hook up the tow strap for ya, PoBrian

Click to expand...

Don't know if this would be allowed. Other racers in my class may consider me a sandbagger and force to bump to A class!!!

Excellent idea though! No one know the lines better in the rocks!

PoeBrian said:

Excellent idea though! No one know the lines better in the rocks!

Click to expand...

Or around them. :laugh:

Thanks Smit-Dog (and others) for the reality check!

Sometimes it's too easy to get caught up and only hear the minority, and think that all the work is for nothing.

IMO, Smit-Dog deserves the Grand Champion trophy for living up to the spirit of ENDURO! :cool:

.

Fred T said:

Or around them. :laugh:

Click to expand...

Ain't dat da truth!! Could be why I'm usually not tired after a ride on the mountain followed by a run through the Wee Wee hills. :cool: Good stuff ;)