New product for PDS..Could this be the answer?
- Thread starter terry hay
- Start date
- Thread starter
- #29
After receiving the first of our prototypes we installed it into Brad Williscrofts 450 EXC with instant success. The control we now have over the compression stroke is amazing. When we first tried it we never made a single adjustment, just simply switched needles. The stability over braking bumps and rolling whoops is dramatically improved with no apparent drawbacks. I'm extremely happy with the results and have simply been going through a fine tuning process with valving. We are about to try two new tapers (Only slight changes) to see if we can improve our results even further. The main reason I have gone quiet on this is to take time to register the design and we have applied for patent protection.
We have discovered that you can avoid the huge cost of a worlwide patent by coming under the patent pending umbrella which effectively provides short term protection (1 year). But we will be releasing the product to the masses shortly. Just cleaning up some durability testing.
Regards
Terry
We have discovered that you can avoid the huge cost of a worlwide patent by coming under the patent pending umbrella which effectively provides short term protection (1 year). But we will be releasing the product to the masses shortly. Just cleaning up some durability testing.
Regards
Terry
Jeremy Wilkey
Owner, MX-Tech
- Jan 28, 2000
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Guys I don't know if you remember any of this.. I think its cool how Mr.Hays comes on here learns a thing or two and now proposes the new solution.. Quite interesting indeed.. Here is some stuff from when he told me how my efforts where the same as muti-stage valving and heavy bumpers.. Please.... for your enjoyment...
11-12-2003, 02:21 AM
terry hay
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Your work with the PDS needles sounds interesting but rather convaluted. Why not try a two stage stack on the secondary piston? The crossover point is completely tunable as is the degree of damping. You may achieve the effect you desire with a lot less effort. The bottom out bumper on the KTMs is too soft to offer any serious halting of momentum and could also be addressed. The bump rubber that Showa produce for the XR 650 does a much better job. It has a much higher duro rating and is a little longer. When trying to find a solution for the PDS we can't blame just one area. It's the sum of all the parts. Position sensitive damping was never going to be easy.
I think The Idea that Terry is proposing is interesting.. I wonder however how it seems to be the magical bullet..But It seems really weird how something without valving changes is going to be so much better. But as we go down farther using his own words once again.. I ask you to ponder these things..
11-12-2003, 02:13 PM
terry hay
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Jeremy
My whole point is that position sensitive damping has brought about a new wave of problems that have confused the masses entirely. Mainly because damping simply doesn't work that way. KTM has offered us many sizes and shapes of needles since 98 and it would appear the smaller the needle (less influence) the greater the improvement we have seen. This years example of the PDS shock sees KTM employ less spring force to achieve its progression and a more abrupt needle. A step forward? I doubt it. You can play around with the needles until the cows come home and granted, you may make improvements. What I am try to say is that we may be able to achieve greater results easier in other areas. Even if you hit upon the "Perfect Needle" the secondary piston will still have to be tuned to suit. The valving here will obviously be easier to tune for effect if we use a two stage or even a multi stage stack. If you are trying to achieve position sensitivity, why not use the spring? After all, it is "position sensitive". As I mentioned, a longer stiffer bump rubber gives you an effective "position sensitive" change. This too can be modified for different results. Your quest for the ultimate needle will be a long one and the results will be subject to personal opinion. A rider going across a set of stadium whoops doesn't care about a dyno graph. As tuners we are constanly trying to further development for the "ultimate ride" but what we (as tuners) believe is right will always take a back seat to what the rider prefers. So once again, its the sum of all the parts that makes the difference.
Nice quote Terry.... Nothing beter than your own words... Maybe you do have something magical.. I don't know... I've tried longer needles too.. I don't like them as much as I like the present 54mm.. That mimics the best of a linkage bike with as easy of a transition as posible but realitisic, and speed range that is high enough, and a nice light secondary.. Perhaps bigger is better but you seem to be quite conflicted..
I don't have much time I doubt I'll be back much on this..
BR,
Jer
11-12-2003, 02:21 AM
terry hay
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Status: Offline Join Date: Nov 2003
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Your work with the PDS needles sounds interesting but rather convaluted. Why not try a two stage stack on the secondary piston? The crossover point is completely tunable as is the degree of damping. You may achieve the effect you desire with a lot less effort. The bottom out bumper on the KTMs is too soft to offer any serious halting of momentum and could also be addressed. The bump rubber that Showa produce for the XR 650 does a much better job. It has a much higher duro rating and is a little longer. When trying to find a solution for the PDS we can't blame just one area. It's the sum of all the parts. Position sensitive damping was never going to be easy.
I think The Idea that Terry is proposing is interesting.. I wonder however how it seems to be the magical bullet..But It seems really weird how something without valving changes is going to be so much better. But as we go down farther using his own words once again.. I ask you to ponder these things..
11-12-2003, 02:13 PM
terry hay
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Status: Offline Join Date: Nov 2003
Member #: 48273
My DRN Photos
Jeremy
My whole point is that position sensitive damping has brought about a new wave of problems that have confused the masses entirely. Mainly because damping simply doesn't work that way. KTM has offered us many sizes and shapes of needles since 98 and it would appear the smaller the needle (less influence) the greater the improvement we have seen. This years example of the PDS shock sees KTM employ less spring force to achieve its progression and a more abrupt needle. A step forward? I doubt it. You can play around with the needles until the cows come home and granted, you may make improvements. What I am try to say is that we may be able to achieve greater results easier in other areas. Even if you hit upon the "Perfect Needle" the secondary piston will still have to be tuned to suit. The valving here will obviously be easier to tune for effect if we use a two stage or even a multi stage stack. If you are trying to achieve position sensitivity, why not use the spring? After all, it is "position sensitive". As I mentioned, a longer stiffer bump rubber gives you an effective "position sensitive" change. This too can be modified for different results. Your quest for the ultimate needle will be a long one and the results will be subject to personal opinion. A rider going across a set of stadium whoops doesn't care about a dyno graph. As tuners we are constanly trying to further development for the "ultimate ride" but what we (as tuners) believe is right will always take a back seat to what the rider prefers. So once again, its the sum of all the parts that makes the difference.
Nice quote Terry.... Nothing beter than your own words... Maybe you do have something magical.. I don't know... I've tried longer needles too.. I don't like them as much as I like the present 54mm.. That mimics the best of a linkage bike with as easy of a transition as posible but realitisic, and speed range that is high enough, and a nice light secondary.. Perhaps bigger is better but you seem to be quite conflicted..
I don't have much time I doubt I'll be back much on this..
BR,
Jer
Last edited:
- Thread starter
- #33
Jeremy
The irony is certainly not lost on myself. I am aware of the contradiction and certainly am prepared to cop any lumps. Advancing the needle design beyond present day limitations however was the only way I could perceive this thing working adequately. As with our phone conversations I still intend to send you an example for your own testing. As also previously mentioned we are still finalising valving. In order to test the full effect of the needle compared to stock surely the most logical starting point would be with a singular change. With the secondary piston, surprise, surprise a multi-stage valve stack is proving to be the most successfull. We have no less proceeded past the stage where we are wondering whether it will work or not to wondering "just how well can it work"
If you are still keen to be involved I would value your assessment and input.
Terry
The irony is certainly not lost on myself. I am aware of the contradiction and certainly am prepared to cop any lumps. Advancing the needle design beyond present day limitations however was the only way I could perceive this thing working adequately. As with our phone conversations I still intend to send you an example for your own testing. As also previously mentioned we are still finalising valving. In order to test the full effect of the needle compared to stock surely the most logical starting point would be with a singular change. With the secondary piston, surprise, surprise a multi-stage valve stack is proving to be the most successfull. We have no less proceeded past the stage where we are wondering whether it will work or not to wondering "just how well can it work"
If you are still keen to be involved I would value your assessment and input.
Terry
OzRocket said:
Your views are more than welcome in this forum. A commercial as your first and only post on this board is not. This is a forum to share ideas and experiences not promote specific products. All I ask is that you keep that in mind when you post.
My intentions in replying to this thread was only to share MY
experience with this new needle.
I personally have 4 odd years experience ridding PDS suspended bikes.
I found this new telescopic needle to offer a huge improvement in rear shock performance.
As I don't know what I can or cannot say about it,
Can members PM me if they require further information regarding my personal experience with the above?
cheers Rod
experience with this new needle.
I personally have 4 odd years experience ridding PDS suspended bikes.
I found this new telescopic needle to offer a huge improvement in rear shock performance.
As I don't know what I can or cannot say about it,
Can members PM me if they require further information regarding my personal experience with the above?
cheers Rod
OzRocket said:
By all means. :thumb:
OCCRA_Racer
Member
- Oct 29, 2002
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OzRocket
Please post here publicly what improvements you felt with the new needle design. Were there any areas that weren't as good as the stock needle? Had your shock been previously modified? What kind of riding do you do and at what level? Telling the advantages and disadvantages shouldn't be seen as a commercial or spamming if you are simply answering questions asked of you.
Thanks
Please post here publicly what improvements you felt with the new needle design. Were there any areas that weren't as good as the stock needle? Had your shock been previously modified? What kind of riding do you do and at what level? Telling the advantages and disadvantages shouldn't be seen as a commercial or spamming if you are simply answering questions asked of you.
Thanks
Thanks OCCRA,i'll see how we go!
I,m a 40yo with a history in moto-x.Mainly ride enduro/woods
terrain,average 200 odd miles a week.Generally find myself towards the pointy end of the pack.
I ride an 03 525 EXC which up till now was stock suspension wise,barring a Fabtech kit(no 2) in the forks.
The new needle was fitted, without a single other adjustment.Clickers,sags etc unchanged.
With new needle the rear was much calmer,tracked better and lost that "choppy feel".It actually felt "progressive" through the travel!Also lost the harsh spike in mid stroke!
It greatly improved the ride,without even a clicker change.
Next i had the forks revalved(compression,midvalve,rebound) and installed 4.6 springs.
The shock was then revalved in compression and rebound,a PDS 4 spring fitted aswell as an extended topout spring.
After testing and various cliker changes,the bike was awsome!
1-2ft high braking and accelleration bumps,seemed to disappear!It felt like it was "glued to the ground".Gave those "cat like landings" off all but G-outs.
It actually felt plush!
The before and after was like night and day! I was left wondering how I had actually managed to ride the bike stock!
The biggest single difference in ride/handling was made with the needle.
cheers Rod
I,m a 40yo with a history in moto-x.Mainly ride enduro/woods
terrain,average 200 odd miles a week.Generally find myself towards the pointy end of the pack.
I ride an 03 525 EXC which up till now was stock suspension wise,barring a Fabtech kit(no 2) in the forks.
The new needle was fitted, without a single other adjustment.Clickers,sags etc unchanged.
With new needle the rear was much calmer,tracked better and lost that "choppy feel".It actually felt "progressive" through the travel!Also lost the harsh spike in mid stroke!
It greatly improved the ride,without even a clicker change.
Next i had the forks revalved(compression,midvalve,rebound) and installed 4.6 springs.
The shock was then revalved in compression and rebound,a PDS 4 spring fitted aswell as an extended topout spring.
After testing and various cliker changes,the bike was awsome!
1-2ft high braking and accelleration bumps,seemed to disappear!It felt like it was "glued to the ground".Gave those "cat like landings" off all but G-outs.
It actually felt plush!
The before and after was like night and day! I was left wondering how I had actually managed to ride the bike stock!
The biggest single difference in ride/handling was made with the needle.
cheers Rod
OCCRA_Racer
Member
- Oct 29, 2002
- 41
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Rod
Those are some big springs. How much do you weigh? It seems like that would be a pretty firm ride. What type terrain did you do the tests on?
I like how you put the needle in with zero other changes. That makes a lot of sense from an evaluation stand point.
Those are some big springs. How much do you weigh? It seems like that would be a pretty firm ride. What type terrain did you do the tests on?
I like how you put the needle in with zero other changes. That makes a lot of sense from an evaluation stand point.
OCCRA,
I weigh 187lb in the shower!BUT,
with all my gear(boots, helmet,knee braces,armour,3lt camelbak,1st aid kit,tool bag,GPS etc)
My ride weight becomes about 225lb's!!!!
I'm always amazed at how light everyone seems on these forums!
I'm sure if everyone was to weigh themselves "ready to ride"
they would be shocked!
My boots and helmet are 14lbs!!!!
All my testing on bike,has been in full gear.
I found the PDS 4 with small preload,was better than PDS 3
with lots of preload!
The bigger springs actually seem to hold me up higher in the stroke,making things plusher.
I ride mixed terrain,alot of tight single track/roots/rocks(1+2 gear),to fast open dessert type.
Ive been ridding PDS suspended bikes for 4 years now
This is the best(by far) that I've ridden.
cheers Rod
I weigh 187lb in the shower!BUT,
with all my gear(boots, helmet,knee braces,armour,3lt camelbak,1st aid kit,tool bag,GPS etc)
My ride weight becomes about 225lb's!!!!
I'm always amazed at how light everyone seems on these forums!
I'm sure if everyone was to weigh themselves "ready to ride"
they would be shocked!
My boots and helmet are 14lbs!!!!
All my testing on bike,has been in full gear.
I found the PDS 4 with small preload,was better than PDS 3
with lots of preload!
The bigger springs actually seem to hold me up higher in the stroke,making things plusher.
I ride mixed terrain,alot of tight single track/roots/rocks(1+2 gear),to fast open dessert type.
Ive been ridding PDS suspended bikes for 4 years now
This is the best(by far) that I've ridden.
cheers Rod
Like Rocket, I too have just tried one of these prototype Telescopic needles on my 04 KTM525. I have only had one ride on it through very rocky and tight terrain.
The biggest difference I have found is on accelleration. When you gas it over rough terrain it drives smoothly and does not chop up and down, kicking me like previous. Over a series of short steep errosion banks it also does not kick the rear like it did previously.
I found I had to up the rebound from the centre position on long rocky uphills as the rear would start to swap from side to side a bit. This is partly due to the bald tyre I had and confidence increasing my speed. I only upped the rebound 3 clicks to control this, but I think a few more wouldn't hurt.
I have also gone to a re-active front end, so my above comments should be viewed with this in mind. I am 240lbs on a bike, running a damper, 18mm offset clamps, 9.9 straight rate rear spring and 0.46 fork springs and re-active with the specific valving for it. I ride woods and enduro's, everything from sand, mud to rocks, but mainly tight terrain!
I will post again once I can give it a good workout and try to find fault with the setup!
The biggest difference I have found is on accelleration. When you gas it over rough terrain it drives smoothly and does not chop up and down, kicking me like previous. Over a series of short steep errosion banks it also does not kick the rear like it did previously.
I found I had to up the rebound from the centre position on long rocky uphills as the rear would start to swap from side to side a bit. This is partly due to the bald tyre I had and confidence increasing my speed. I only upped the rebound 3 clicks to control this, but I think a few more wouldn't hurt.
I have also gone to a re-active front end, so my above comments should be viewed with this in mind. I am 240lbs on a bike, running a damper, 18mm offset clamps, 9.9 straight rate rear spring and 0.46 fork springs and re-active with the specific valving for it. I ride woods and enduro's, everything from sand, mud to rocks, but mainly tight terrain!
I will post again once I can give it a good workout and try to find fault with the setup!
OCCRA_Racer
Member
- Oct 29, 2002
- 41
- 0
Keg
Did you make valving changes to the shock along with the new needle? That seems like some huge improvemnts from just a needle change if not.
Also, what sag numbers are you running, static and rider/race sag? How much preload do you have on the spring?
Thanks
Did you make valving changes to the shock along with the new needle? That seems like some huge improvemnts from just a needle change if not.
Also, what sag numbers are you running, static and rider/race sag? How much preload do you have on the spring?
Thanks
I had the shock re-valved also. They really need the extra rebound.
I am running 110mm rider sag. Off the top of my head I can't remember the static sag, but I know it is within tollerances.
Do you mean preload on the shock (spring is wound up 5/8ths of the thread) or do you mean the front? The reactive front spring is the preload, setting the fork up at a pre-determined sag, making the rider and static virtually the same.
I am normally a sceptic when it comes to "motorbike inventions" but most of my mates run KTM's and swapping from bike to bike with similar spring rates and with/or without valving mods, we all agree there is an obvious difference.
Keep those questions coming, the more I ride it the more I can tell you. Seeya, Keg.
I am running 110mm rider sag. Off the top of my head I can't remember the static sag, but I know it is within tollerances.
Do you mean preload on the shock (spring is wound up 5/8ths of the thread) or do you mean the front? The reactive front spring is the preload, setting the fork up at a pre-determined sag, making the rider and static virtually the same.
I am normally a sceptic when it comes to "motorbike inventions" but most of my mates run KTM's and swapping from bike to bike with similar spring rates and with/or without valving mods, we all agree there is an obvious difference.
Keep those questions coming, the more I ride it the more I can tell you. Seeya, Keg.
OCCRA_Racer
Member
- Oct 29, 2002
- 41
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Keg
Thanks for the info.
On the shock setup. Do you know if TH added a longer rebound top-out plate or is that stock? I was asking the amount of preload on the shock spring. Like 6 mm for example.
Is the sping a modified straight rate? TH adds some progression to some springs. If so does it appear to rub on the shock body? It seems it may twist up a bit wierd if modified.
Forks:Do the forks sit lower than normal when unloaded and then a normal height when loaded? Are they plush? Have you tested bottoming resistance?
It all sounds very promising. Keep us informed as you test.
Thanks for the info.
On the shock setup. Do you know if TH added a longer rebound top-out plate or is that stock? I was asking the amount of preload on the shock spring. Like 6 mm for example.
Is the sping a modified straight rate? TH adds some progression to some springs. If so does it appear to rub on the shock body? It seems it may twist up a bit wierd if modified.
Forks:Do the forks sit lower than normal when unloaded and then a normal height when loaded? Are they plush? Have you tested bottoming resistance?
It all sounds very promising. Keep us informed as you test.
The top out plate is standard. The preload I will check.
I am using an ERS 1000/250/550 i think, (red car spring) that has not been modified. These are 1mm diam wider than bike springs so you have to be careful that the spring does not rub against the shock cannister. Mine rubs a little on the airbox.
I have noticed that KTM frames seem to have more variation now that they are robotically welded, compared to 03 and previous years, so using these springs you have to be careful.
I rode an 02 with the telescopic needle and a PDS4 four in it. That seemed to be more plush in the first quarter of the stoke. For me going from a straight rate, I did not feel as comfortable on it compared to my bike. This could also be because I sagged the bike a bit too far - 125mm.
Unloaded the forks are about 2 inches shorter. Static sag is about 1 inch lower and rider sag is the same as a normal bike.
They feel just as plush to me but I have always ridden with a fair amount of preload on the fork.
You actually don't get such a harsh hit through the bars on jumps, and you seemingly bottom less. Here is why I think it is, but Terry might be able to offer a comment here.
-Over a jump the fork is preloaded by the reactive spring ready to work in the valving.
-In the stock fork, jumping in the air it drops to it's full extention and on landing the fork is getting a run-up to blow past the first part of the valving and into the second causing a harsh feel.
Seeya, Keg
I am using an ERS 1000/250/550 i think, (red car spring) that has not been modified. These are 1mm diam wider than bike springs so you have to be careful that the spring does not rub against the shock cannister. Mine rubs a little on the airbox.
I have noticed that KTM frames seem to have more variation now that they are robotically welded, compared to 03 and previous years, so using these springs you have to be careful.
I rode an 02 with the telescopic needle and a PDS4 four in it. That seemed to be more plush in the first quarter of the stoke. For me going from a straight rate, I did not feel as comfortable on it compared to my bike. This could also be because I sagged the bike a bit too far - 125mm.
Unloaded the forks are about 2 inches shorter. Static sag is about 1 inch lower and rider sag is the same as a normal bike.
They feel just as plush to me but I have always ridden with a fair amount of preload on the fork.
You actually don't get such a harsh hit through the bars on jumps, and you seemingly bottom less. Here is why I think it is, but Terry might be able to offer a comment here.
-Over a jump the fork is preloaded by the reactive spring ready to work in the valving.
-In the stock fork, jumping in the air it drops to it's full extention and on landing the fork is getting a run-up to blow past the first part of the valving and into the second causing a harsh feel.
Seeya, Keg
I find all this suspension stuff utterly amazing and read it all to try and understand so I can play and adjust my own suspension and learn to set it up for different tracks.
What I have noticed is everyone seems to be looking for a magic bullet for pds suspension. Me and my kids all ride KTM,s while my daughter,s boyfriend rides a Yamaha he is also one of the fastest local riders anyway he and I are watching a Canadian national race on tv as the three leaders come thru the whoops 1 Yamaha 1 Honda and 1 KTM the two jap bikes are dancing all over the place and the KTM is going straight. After 3 laps of this he turns to me and says "that,s weird everybody says those thing are awfull in the whoops". Now what did we see 1. A better rider 2. Better bike setup 3. Better suspension. I honestly don,t Know.
But I do have a friend that rides a Yamaha that spends all his riding time playing with his suspension working on problems one section of the track at time. He will come in constantly and read his manuals and notes diddle go back out and do this all day until he gets a balanced setup for that track. When we are away on riding holiday he will do this for every track we go to evn if its only once. When we are at home he is the envy of everyone at our track they all want to be able to go thru the whoops like him.
So what is it science or seat time ???????
What I have noticed is everyone seems to be looking for a magic bullet for pds suspension. Me and my kids all ride KTM,s while my daughter,s boyfriend rides a Yamaha he is also one of the fastest local riders anyway he and I are watching a Canadian national race on tv as the three leaders come thru the whoops 1 Yamaha 1 Honda and 1 KTM the two jap bikes are dancing all over the place and the KTM is going straight. After 3 laps of this he turns to me and says "that,s weird everybody says those thing are awfull in the whoops". Now what did we see 1. A better rider 2. Better bike setup 3. Better suspension. I honestly don,t Know.
But I do have a friend that rides a Yamaha that spends all his riding time playing with his suspension working on problems one section of the track at time. He will come in constantly and read his manuals and notes diddle go back out and do this all day until he gets a balanced setup for that track. When we are away on riding holiday he will do this for every track we go to evn if its only once. When we are at home he is the envy of everyone at our track they all want to be able to go thru the whoops like him.
So what is it science or seat time ???????
OCCRA_Racer
Member
- Oct 29, 2002
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- 0
Keg
It's very interesting that you are running a car spring. I assume that the 250 is it's length and the 550 is its rate in pounds?
One would think robotic welding would hold the frames to higher tolerances, not less. Maybe humans can do a better job after all. At the expense of speed I'm sure.
I figured the forks had to be a bit shorter. Does it effect kickstand usage? Hell, it might make it better. Less lean angle.
I'm no suspension Guru but I can't follow your reason for not bottoming. On forks there isn't any progression like a shock. I mean the shaft speed doesn't increase like a linkage shock does. If the fork isn't moving the valving should all be closed and not affected by either system. At least that's how I understand it.
There maybe an effectively smaller air chamber with this system and more bottoming resistance that way. I'm not sure on that though.
I hope Terry does chime in here.
It's very interesting that you are running a car spring. I assume that the 250 is it's length and the 550 is its rate in pounds?
One would think robotic welding would hold the frames to higher tolerances, not less. Maybe humans can do a better job after all. At the expense of speed I'm sure.
I figured the forks had to be a bit shorter. Does it effect kickstand usage? Hell, it might make it better. Less lean angle.
I'm no suspension Guru but I can't follow your reason for not bottoming. On forks there isn't any progression like a shock. I mean the shaft speed doesn't increase like a linkage shock does. If the fork isn't moving the valving should all be closed and not affected by either system. At least that's how I understand it.
There maybe an effectively smaller air chamber with this system and more bottoming resistance that way. I'm not sure on that though.
I hope Terry does chime in here.
It would be great to hear something more about the new needle from Terry. As I am always interested in new products for my little bike
Really interesting was the story of the 3 bikes in those woops! A nice story for everyone...
What I would like to have is on my bike is a plusher rear suspension while breaking. As it is right now it is sometimes hard to catch the right lines when going hi speed (at least for me) into turns. And if Terry might help me - why not? So please put some more information here!
Really interesting was the story of the 3 bikes in those woops! A nice story for everyone...
What I would like to have is on my bike is a plusher rear suspension while breaking. As it is right now it is sometimes hard to catch the right lines when going hi speed (at least for me) into turns. And if Terry might help me - why not? So please put some more information here!
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