You should have listened more carefully in physics class. :D
Splitfire Sparkplugs
- Thread starter kdxgreece
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You should have listened more carefully in physics class. :D
- Feb 9, 2000
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Hmmm for anyone really wanting 2 sparks the hot setup would be two sources of electricity, two plugs and a pot to adjust the delay on the second spark so you could fire them at the same time or a few milliseconds apart :) I still don't think you'd see much if any gain, what would the second spark do? Ignite a combustible mixture thats already going BOOM!
jaguar
~SPONSOR~
Hey dudes, the hotter the spark the better or more consistently the mixture ignites.
Please explain your short remark about physics class. I'm all ears.
Please explain your short remark about physics class. I'm all ears.
jaguar, no offence...but marketers dream of folks like you.
In the world of fluff, a man should learn to gain some cynisism.
This s*itfire thing has been hashed out before, perhaps you should venture beyond the green room and do a search. You just may find the answers you are looking for.
In the world of fluff, a man should learn to gain some cynisism.
This s*itfire thing has been hashed out before, perhaps you should venture beyond the green room and do a search. You just may find the answers you are looking for.
Hey Jaybird, it is true about the fuel mixture igniting. Call NGK and ask them about spark plugs. They will tell you straight.
Basically MX bikes do not have very hot ignition systems. So anything you can do to improve the spark will result in a more complete burn of fuel. Not every molecule of fuel actually gets burned in the combustion process. That is why cars have upgrades like the MSD ignitions that fire for 20* of the ignition timing multiple times - to make sure you get a more complete combustion burn. Here is a quote from MSD about the 6a series:
"The 6A is our base capacitive discharge, multiple sparking ignition. It will increase the overall performance of everything from the loaded work truck to the bracket street cars cruising the boulevard. The hot multiple sparks ensure complete combustion of the air/fuel mixture even under the worst conditions possible."
So the idea of a better/hotter spark on a MX bike is a good thing here. The Answer Roost Boost is about the only product in my memory that actually was designed to actually increase the spark plug power. Basically since a motor is just an air pump powered by fossil fuels, the more fuel you can burn, the more power you can make. So don't knock little things like different plug designs, side gapping or indexing plugs. It has all been proven on dynos in different motors that small things can make a difference in HP.
Basically MX bikes do not have very hot ignition systems. So anything you can do to improve the spark will result in a more complete burn of fuel. Not every molecule of fuel actually gets burned in the combustion process. That is why cars have upgrades like the MSD ignitions that fire for 20* of the ignition timing multiple times - to make sure you get a more complete combustion burn. Here is a quote from MSD about the 6a series:
"The 6A is our base capacitive discharge, multiple sparking ignition. It will increase the overall performance of everything from the loaded work truck to the bracket street cars cruising the boulevard. The hot multiple sparks ensure complete combustion of the air/fuel mixture even under the worst conditions possible."
So the idea of a better/hotter spark on a MX bike is a good thing here. The Answer Roost Boost is about the only product in my memory that actually was designed to actually increase the spark plug power. Basically since a motor is just an air pump powered by fossil fuels, the more fuel you can burn, the more power you can make. So don't knock little things like different plug designs, side gapping or indexing plugs. It has all been proven on dynos in different motors that small things can make a difference in HP.
Your physics teacher should have cleared up your 2 sparks at once misconception. The current generated during the firing of a sparkplug is a flow of electrons which has to flow along a path of least resistance. Marketing can't change physics, in spite of their frequent attempts to. There can only be one path of least resistance at the instant the spark plug fires and only one spark. Multi-spark systems just repeat the firing sequence over a number of crankshaft degrees, but each time there is only one spark.
BTW, what exactly is a hotter spark? People throw that term around constantly but I've never seen anyone clarify it.
Rockey5000
Mod Ban
- May 6, 2002
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It's not hotter but more concentrated. This allows you to mix the performance of both increasing and decreasing the plug gap at the same time. The BR8EI-X has a small electrode which intensifies the spark (more concentrated). This allows the plug gap to be greater and you can combine both traits of an increased and decreased plug gap.
SAY WHAT? :)
jaguar
~SPONSOR~
Rich, I would define a Hotter Spark as one with more electrical current.
I think you're being slightly narrow minded about the path of least resistence. If you hook up two equal resistors in parallel to a battery there will be equal electrical current through both resistors. In this case there is no path of least resistence since both resistors are equal.
Something else to consider; If you hook a 10K resistor and a 5K resistor parallel across a battery you will get twice the current through the 5K than the 10K. My point here is that your "All or nothing" mindset is erroneous because if you were right then all of the current would flow through the 5K resistor since it is the path of least resistence. But it doesn't.
IF both electrodes are equidistant BUT the current only flows through one of them THEN maybe it's because of some kind of electrical inertia or something where they would rather flow together instead of seperate.
I don't know. I am anxious to receive mine that I mail ordered and look closely at the spark(s) while the plug is resting on the engine and I crank the ohmigosh out of it.
I think you're being slightly narrow minded about the path of least resistence. If you hook up two equal resistors in parallel to a battery there will be equal electrical current through both resistors. In this case there is no path of least resistence since both resistors are equal.
Something else to consider; If you hook a 10K resistor and a 5K resistor parallel across a battery you will get twice the current through the 5K than the 10K. My point here is that your "All or nothing" mindset is erroneous because if you were right then all of the current would flow through the 5K resistor since it is the path of least resistence. But it doesn't.
IF both electrodes are equidistant BUT the current only flows through one of them THEN maybe it's because of some kind of electrical inertia or something where they would rather flow together instead of seperate.
I don't know. I am anxious to receive mine that I mail ordered and look closely at the spark(s) while the plug is resting on the engine and I crank the ohmigosh out of it.
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Rockey5000
Mod Ban
- May 6, 2002
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The only way to create two sparks in a single combustion chamber is to incorporate a second spark plug. This is used in the Mercedes 5.0 Litre engines found in any 500 class Mercedes (SL,S,CL,E,CLK, etc.). Because the cylinder has a very large displacement this is conceiveable but would be hard to do on a 125 or even a 250 cc head. The 625cc cylinders are quite large so the added spark would help increase the efficency of such a large cylinder. The efficency of this 5.0 litre engine is very great, although could be improved with an added exhaust valve. Combining these features would allow a very efficent and clean burning engine to be created. A dual-spark plug engine with 3 intake valves and 2 exhaust valve, and a multisparking ignition would create a very efficent burn. Adding a forced induction system would also further increase efficency. A turbocharger or supercharger would allow the engine to reach 100% volumetric efficency. This would allow the most possible power to be extracted from each power stroke of the engine. If these new technologies were incorporated into new engines a 2.0 liter engine of
Rockey5000
Mod Ban
- May 6, 2002
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Sorry about that, let me continue- a 2.0 liter engine could produce around 150hp/l , which is a very high efficency. This is the new technology which allows Honda Civics to run 12 second 1/4 miles. It should be utilized in ore engines today.
[Rant off]
[Rant off]
Like I said, you shouldn't have slept through physics.
"Electrical inertia" I need to write that one down. :)
Rockey5000
Mod Ban
- May 6, 2002
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Doesn't Bosch make a plug with 4 seperate electrodes? Would that make it possible for 4 sparks to happen all at once or would the current just jump to toe electrode with the least resistance?
jaguar
~SPONSOR~
Rich
so tell me how many years you've studied electronics. (zero I'll bet). I graduated from 2 years of study back in '77.
Please don't shame the great Albert Einstein who had a very expansive mind and could imagine such things as "electrical inertia" existing until proved otherwise. One of his favorite sayings, which applies well to you, Is "The two most abundant substances that exist in the universe is carbon and IGNORANCE".
You are sooo cute how you make comebacks that are just fluff. Talk with substance and not just stinky attitude
so tell me how many years you've studied electronics. (zero I'll bet). I graduated from 2 years of study back in '77.
Please don't shame the great Albert Einstein who had a very expansive mind and could imagine such things as "electrical inertia" existing until proved otherwise. One of his favorite sayings, which applies well to you, Is "The two most abundant substances that exist in the universe is carbon and IGNORANCE".
You are sooo cute how you make comebacks that are just fluff. Talk with substance and not just stinky attitude
While you are teetering on your decidedly wobbly soapbox you might want to look up the word "inertia" and familiarize yourself with the concept of an "ionized path". It should help clear up a few misconceptions about the difference between the battery/resistor example you cited and the requirements needed for a spark to cross an airgap.
FWIW, I spent six years as a test engineer at US Robotics and 3Com. Luckily we didn't have to deal with any messy electronic or physics stuff there because we made our products out of wood. :)
You are right in one respect. Einstein was a remarkable thinker, but he was also wise enough to appreciate and accept the basic physical laws that govern the planet. Last time I checked he might have even contributed a few.
Rumor has it that the Splitfire guys are the new sponsor/R&D center for the Maxwell's Demon racing team, so maybe you are on to something afterall. :D
For those who haven't seen it here is a link to the class action lawsuit against Splitfire. http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/legal/split.html
FWIW, I spent six years as a test engineer at US Robotics and 3Com. Luckily we didn't have to deal with any messy electronic or physics stuff there because we made our products out of wood. :)
You are right in one respect. Einstein was a remarkable thinker, but he was also wise enough to appreciate and accept the basic physical laws that govern the planet. Last time I checked he might have even contributed a few.
Rumor has it that the Splitfire guys are the new sponsor/R&D center for the Maxwell's Demon racing team, so maybe you are on to something afterall. :D
For those who haven't seen it here is a link to the class action lawsuit against Splitfire. http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/legal/split.html
I'd be willing to be money that those of you who are arguing the validity of these special plugs have clogged silencers, gooed up valves, and run nothing but WD-40 on your chains. Not to mention...slow :)
Rich does have a "stinky attitude"...why do you think they call him a "poo poo head"
:moon:
Rich does have a "stinky attitude"...why do you think they call him a "poo poo head"
:moon:
jaguar
~SPONSOR~
OK
At http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/legal/splitcom.html you can read of the legal action of the Federal Trade Commission against SplitFire because they didn't have any real studies to back up their claims. But that doesn't mean the plugs aren't better, just that there's no decent documented evidence that they're better.
I'll withhold my judgement till the day I try one.
At http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/legal/splitcom.html you can read of the legal action of the Federal Trade Commission against SplitFire because they didn't have any real studies to back up their claims. But that doesn't mean the plugs aren't better, just that there's no decent documented evidence that they're better.
I'll withhold my judgement till the day I try one.
The splitfire concept is not without merit. Anytime you can add additional sharp edges to the ground strap you potentially can decrease the voltage required to get the spark (singular) to jump the gap. Depending on the circumstances decreasing required voltage can be an advantage, but it's not always a good thing. As the plug wears and the ground strap and center electrode erode the additional available sharp edges should keep the voltage requirement fairly consistent. NGK does this by adding a second ground strap with their EK series plugs, and through the use of fine wire precious metal center electrodes on some of the other models. IMO the problem with the splitfire implementation is the way they go about splitting the ground strap which experience has shown increases the failure rate. Well that and beating people for 3-4 times the price of a standard plug for a dubious advantage.
You can easily get the same advantage from a 99 cent NGK BR8ES plug by taking a pattern file to the ground strap and making a slight v shape of the end.
If you want to overpay for a poor quality plug, be my guest. Just don't buy into the nonsense that it can magically defy established physical laws just because some guy in a factory slammed a die into the ground strap before it is bent into place.
You can easily get the same advantage from a 99 cent NGK BR8ES plug by taking a pattern file to the ground strap and making a slight v shape of the end.
If you want to overpay for a poor quality plug, be my guest. Just don't buy into the nonsense that it can magically defy established physical laws just because some guy in a factory slammed a die into the ground strap before it is bent into place.
you don't even need a v, just file a sharp square edge on the ground strap and file the electrode square and flat. In the old days of weak ignitions tuners used to file the ground strap back to the edge of the electrode to unshroud the spark. Those who dealt with Wico and Lucas magnetos in wet conditions know what I'm talking about.
canyncarvr
~SPONSOR~
- Oct 14, 1999
- 4,005
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Gee.. after a week, this thread hasn't groan (sic) at all??
Rocky:
NGK sez:
Remember that Multi Power Spark Plugs, or any other multiple electrode type spark plug, cannot provide more than one spark at a time. The primary purpose of the multiple electrode spark plug is to achieve greater spark plug durability and reliability over the life of the spark plug.
**************
Their 'multi-path' plug has THREE ground electrodes. Of course, the ones NOT being sparked to will still be subjected to 1000º or so, complete with other combustion chamber contaminants. Don't know how sharp they'd be after a lot of that.
Rocky:
NGK sez:
Remember that Multi Power Spark Plugs, or any other multiple electrode type spark plug, cannot provide more than one spark at a time. The primary purpose of the multiple electrode spark plug is to achieve greater spark plug durability and reliability over the life of the spark plug.
**************
Their 'multi-path' plug has THREE ground electrodes. Of course, the ones NOT being sparked to will still be subjected to 1000º or so, complete with other combustion chamber contaminants. Don't know how sharp they'd be after a lot of that.
That is called side gapping. take a look on the first page for the link I posted on that.
FYI the splitfire plugs are $2.99 and have a 3 year warranty. Take advantage of that when they foul out. In a season, I can easily go through a dozen plugs. So if you take the price of the NGK, that is 1/3 the price.
From Splitfire: (read the bold text closely)
SplitFire, Inc. guarantees that SplitFire Spark Plugs will meet or exceed your automotive or truck manufacturer's spark plug performance standards in a properly tuned automobile or truck with a non-modified engine for 36 months, regardless of mileage driven, or we will replace the spark plugs. (See our Warranty information sheet for full details of this limited warranty.)
Properly tuned engines do not foul plugs. Good luck :D
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