suspenders way too harsh... re-revalve?

[zio]

My 2003 300 ex/c I bought from a DRN'er came with revalved forks & shock with stiffer springs, he was a 225lb A racer. I'm a 190 lbs right now (10 or so more than normal). My forks aren't plush at all. They're stiff, and I'm talking stiff compared to a stock '01 YZF250, '04 CRF450 and CRF250X I rode back to back on our little track with lots of braking bumps & a few tables. The forks & shock are great on the jumps, it's just the small chop I'm getting hammered on. It's like I feel every pebble. I originally thought I'd be fine with the stiffer springs, as I read all the time (paper rags as well as suspension shop websites) that stiffer springs are sometimes required for dudes my size, and also they don't necessarily make suspension stiffer. And I also thought that stiffer springs combined with a revalve from Emig Racing would still be acceptable. But man, it's not like I expected. And after going fast into a particular downhill durn with lots of braking bumps on the YZF on Sunday, I can't ignore the difference anymore. I felt nothing on the YZF. Amazing! So, do I need to get the stock springs back in there? Or is it the valving I need tinkered with? Or so I need to do something horrible like going over to the dark side? :yikes:

 

[Okiewan]

I'm sure a suspension pro will post, but I don't think the springs would cause the harshness? I'll assume you've turned compression back some to see if that helps? I doubt it's the springs, more likely the valving.

 

[evenslower]

I'm not the suspension pro you're waiting for but big suprise, I have an opinion :laugh:

In my experience the rear setup on a KTM is way more sensitive to correct spring ratio than a linkage bike. I've had both sides of the coin. Too stiff and too soft. They both gave me problems. I know this isn't your first KTM so I'm sure already know how sensitive they are to sag settings. Its nearly impossible to get the correct static/rider sag with the wrong spring. Since I've had this issue before I happen to have a couple springs laying around in the garage. I'll see what I have and if you think its worth a whirl I can ship them out to you to try. Not sure what I have though.

As far as the forks, I would think that if you're backing off on compression and still not getting the plushness the next step would be lighter springs or lighter oil if you want to experiment before having them done up.

I'm just a little lighter than you on an 03 200 and I've got .40's in the front with 7wt BelRay-love the forks. Better than the YZF I just got off of and it had valve work done. A PDS 6 on the rear with a Novation valve-had a PDS 5 before and it about killed me.

 

[zio]

Okie, I have backed off the clickers... about seven on compression & rebound for forks, 3-4 for the shock.

evenslower, the rear is a pds 4. Can't remember what's in the forks. I could try changing the oil, and would consider breaking into the springs (getting more comfortable withe bike internals). Less oil = more air, therefore softer? Lighter oil means easier flow through valves, therefore softer too?

 

[Okiewan]

Humm... if the springs are correct, they shouldn't be causing harshness? Weaker springs will only make the bike ride lower in the stroke. But alas, I'm over my suspension head here. It's always been my belief that valving is more related to harshness than anything else.

 

[BadgerMan]

I agree that as long as the forks are functioning properly (no binding), the harshness is most likely a valving issue.

Lighter oil may help somewhat. I felt the need to run 2.5w in my YZF’s forks before the revalve.

Oil level basically just determines the propensity for bottoming. How much of the travel are you using?

In my experience, lighter springs result in harshness more so than stiffer springs simply because, as Okie said, the bike rides lower in the stroke if the springs are too soft.

 

[evenslower]

I agree with the comments about spring rates vs. harshness in the forks but the PDS on the rear of a KTM is very unique in terms of setup in comparison to a link system. What sag settings are you shooting for? I did a lot of reading and "testing" and found that the rear works best for me with 35mm of static and 110mm rider sag. My measurements aren't exactly scientific but close. If you've got the wrong spring for your weight you won't be able to get close enough to proper settings to make it work the way you want it to. I have 3 preload spacers in each leg of the forks (little plastic KTM washers) to help keep the forks up in the stroke by putting more preload on the spring. That with the slightly heavier oil made a huge improvement. Each click seems to make a more noticeable change now.

A PDS 4 is progressive rated at 8.5-11 kg/mm which is way too stiff for your weight. As a comparison my PDS 6 is rated at 7.15-9.05. I would guess your spring would be intended for someone in the 250lb range. I wouldln't think you'd get close to proper sag settings with that heavy of a spring.

You can get into a whole progressive vs. straight rate discussion but that's semanitcs for most of us. Hope someone who knows more can chime in. Don't be afraid of experimenting with oil in forks, the biggest problem is not making a mess. I'll email you some stuff that helped me.

Editorial note: this information intended for recreational purposes onlyl and the author makes no claim as to its validity, usefulness, or that he even remotely knows what the hell he is talking about. :nener:

 

[zio]

How much of the travel are you using?

Very little, I think.

I think I may have to just turn my head & cough up the dough for a revalve. Today I'll go for a ride & back all the way out on compression/rebound and see what happens. I'll also check sag again, & chain tension, & we'll see what happens.

But yeah, he said he was 250lbs with gear. It's not as if I can't live with the forks the way they are... its just that I'm having a very hard time getting comfortable with the handling of it on the track. I can live with the lack of plushness. For whatever reason, on the trail it's not as much of an issue in terms of handling. :think: But dang it, now I'm spending 100% of my time on a track.

 

[evenslower]

If he was 250 I'd bet you've got some heavy springs in those forks. Find some used .40 or .42 and give them try. I've seen quite a few for sale on that other forum related to KTMs.

I'll still check on the rear springs I've got and you're welcome to try them if you want to experiment. Changing shock springs on a KTM is a matter of about 10 min and two bolts, no special tools.

Oh, and I'm very proud of my guess as to the intended weight of that PDS 4. First thing I was close to getting right all day.

 

[Dapper]

The answer is obvious. Eat some pie and put 2 rolls of quarters in your pockets. If that doesn't work go out in you front yard and swing a dead chicken over your head and chant.
O wa ta jer kiam 3 times
Let me know how it works out. :nener:

 

[BadgerMan]

Very little, I think.

I think I may have to just turn my head & cough up the dough for a revalve.

You may want to try a fork oil change first. Try a 2.5wt oil and lower the oil level to somewhere near the upper end of the spec range.

I bought a used bike (just happened to be a KTM) back in the mid-nineties and the forks just hammered me for the first ride. I decided to do an oil change and found that the previous owner had exceeded the spec range and the forks where locking they had so much oil in them.

I would make sure they are set up properly before spending a bunch of money.

 

[Papakeith]

I'm in a similar albiet larger boat as zio. I'm riding an 04 CRF450 that was revalved locally. The forks suck up the big hits fine, but the little stuff still kills me. It's better than stock for sure, but. . .The rear I can dial in, the forks are still way too harsh. I'll be watching this one with interest to see how it pans out.

I'll even hazzard a guess. midvalve trouble.

Dapper, you seem to know much of the ways of suspension. What would you suggest for someone in my situation?

 

[Dapper]

tis true. I am wise to ways of the suspension. compession on, rebound off. It's a delicate balance. Too much of either is not good. You should meditate on it and the answer will come to you Grasshopper.
PK skip th pie and quarters and go directly to the dead chicken. :joke:

 

[marcusgunby]

I would say generally harshness is valving but it really is a combination of springs and valving that makes a good suspension, eg my 03 kx125 was nice after i revalved but it wasnt perfect, i put some 0.40 springs in the front instead of the std 0.42s and it was really good then-better on smalls stuff and amazing in breaking bumps-some of this i think was due to the fast rebound the modern forks have, the softer springs allowed the forks to settle better-opposite to the theory of good forks but it worked.

 

[Danger]

You will need .44kg springs in those forks with no preload, a shock spacer in the rear to stop the shock over extending, and run some Redline D4 ATF in the forks. Do not run lighter oil. You need to take care of the HS rebound which the D4 will help with. You may still need a revalve ie a two stage stack and midvalve and rebound changes, but these steps are a start. Check out KTMtalk.com for a lot of info on how to get your KTM dialed in.

 

[zio]

much thanks to evenslower for the eibach... I installed a softer shock spring. I am keeping all settings the same, as a starting point. Did a quick ride after install, and I think it feels better. I can't tell on fast bumps (but I mostly stand, and feel bump stuff through the handlebars), but in turns it seemed I could sit & get the rear end to settle down through the whole corner. And It felt more "planted", I think. I didn't hit any jumps, or go very fast. I'll have more "testing" tomorrow as a few buddies come over to ride.

 

[evenslower]

Try to get to 115-120 mm of rider sag and hopefully that will put you in the neighborhood of 40 mm non-rider sag. If you can get close to that the spring I sent you should work fine and you'll hate your forks again!!!!!!!!!!! Plus now you've got a purty red spring.