The public's return to 2 strokes

[Tom68]

Like julien_d said, good to see 2 strokes getting a chance on the track, in West Aus' they have a 125 class for the kids as well as letting them run with 250F's, my nephew is 15 but only 110lbs so the 125 class suits him. I also ride what I can afford which gives me a choice of an old 4t and old 2t, couldn't be happier. Seems to be a lot of peer pressure out there for novice riders to waste their money on bikes that pro's ride. Good gear reliable bike = lifetime of fun.
Of course if you get your kicks arguing the pros and cons good luck to you there's always new people coming on board to have a go at it, but for most of us it's getting very old.

 

[PaulKDX250SR]

So true as everyone has stated, both the 2st and 4st engines have there places in the grand scheme of things.

We like to have a choice in life (or at least think we have a choice).

Cola Coca - Pepsi Windows - Mac VHS - BetMax

I want to be able to go out and buy a NEW 2st 250 Trail bike !!! And one at a decent cost, not Orange Priced.


Most young riders start out on small bore 2st bikes for all the obvious reasons. These bikes need to be kept in production. It is good for the sport, period.

 

[Joburble]

Yes it's true it's getting very old, and it's true that it's about the riding, and at the end of the day it's about business for the manufacturers. However I would still like the choice if that's possible. I think the noise made by those still wanting 2 strokes (people like me) is to try to somehow let the manufacturers know we will buy their 2 stroke bikes if they keep producing them.

 

[PaulKDX250SR]

Sr5bidder,

here are the links to, 50s, 125s, 200s and 220s available in Japan if you are interested:

The red number on the far right is the price. Just add two zeros to arrive at the price in $$.
Example 17 = 1,700$

http://www.goobike.com/bike/kawasaki__ksr_i/summary.html

http://www.goobike.com/bike/kawasaki__kdx125sr/summary.html

http://www.goobike.com/bike/kawasaki__kdx200sr/summary.html

http://www.goobike.com/bike/kawasaki__kdx220sr/summary.html

Those 50cc bikes are plated for the street :laugh:

 

[whenfoxforks-ruled]

3800 dollars for a 11 year old kdx 220, with 8000 miles on it?? Bummer.

 

[PaulKDX250SR]

3800 dollars for a 11 year old kdx 220, with 8000 miles on it?? Bummer

Yeah, lot of wedge for an 11 year old bike. Looks in really good condition though.

When they don't make new ones anymore this is what happens, you pay inflated prices for used bikes. :bang: :bang:

 

[reepicheep]

Or you get a *smoking* good deal getting one for $850 on craigs list... :)

Then proceed to put $1500 into restoring it to a solid runner again... :(

(The good news is that parts for KDX's are still very easy to come by, both new and used, and that if you can overlook cosmetics, you can get a badly abused KDX back to more or less "better then new" condition... the important parts like the crank and case seem to be extremely durable)

 

[whenfoxforks-ruled]

450 dollars for a crank assembly, it better last a long time!

 

[mudpack]

(#3800 for an 11 year old KDX220)Yeah, lot of wedge for an 11 year old bike. Looks in really good condition though.

When they don't make new ones anymore this is what happens, you pay inflated prices for used bikes. :bang: :bang:

Last year, after some searching, I bought a new still-in-the-crate 2006 KDX200 for $3600.
I know there are still some unsold new KDX200's around, I still have the dealer's phone numbers....

Don't pay ridiculous prices for used bikes.

 

[PaulKDX250SR]

Last year, after some searching, I bought a new still-in-the-crate 2006 KDX200 for $3600.

I do indeed take comfort in this post. :nod:

 

[PaulKDX250SR]

If the public are once again jumping aboard a 2st, what bikes are they buying?

If a wanted a new 2st:

Learner bike for the kid

Woods bike

MX bike

Open Class bike

What is available?

Me thinks jack-sh#t ? :(

 

[longtime coming]

Lots of KTM's, some Yamaha's, A Kawasaki 85 and 100, a Suzuki 85, some Gas Gas', TM, Husqvarna and probably more available new. Not to mention good used ones. Lots.

 

[XRpredator]

Lots of KTM's, some Yamaha's, A Kawasaki 85 and 100, a Suzuki 85, some Gas Gas', TM, Husqvarna and probably more available new. Not to mention good used ones. Lots.

learner bikes? :think: pretty steep curve for a "learner" on a ring-ding 85 motocrosser

 

[longtime coming]

OK, but all the other categories are covered. KTM 85 and 105xc's are probably somewhat beginner friendly, but there are not very many options. Long ago, we just bought something and rode it. Probably not the best way to progressively learn.

 

[Joburble]

In New Zealand we can still get new RM125's and RM250's too, but I think they are 2008 models. And the 125 and 250 YZ's of course.

 

[Rich Rohrich]

It's business, nothing more. For a lot of companies, and the list is growing ( see below from www.motomatters.com), selling two-strokes has stopped being a good business decision.

KTM To Pull Out Of 125 Class?
Submitted by David Emmett on Thu, 2009-10-01 10:03 www.motomatters.com.

When KTM announced they would be withdrawing from the 250cc class at the end of last year, it was generally put down to the bitterness felt by the Austrian factory over the way the Moto2 class was forced through. That announcement was followed shortly by both the onset of the global financial crisis, and a string of very poor financial results by KTM. Since then, KTM has been gradually screwing back its involvement in two-stroke road racing, including withdrawing support from the US Red Bull Rookies series, causing that class to collapse before the start of the season. Earlier this month, when the 2010 Red Bull Rookies Cup was announced, the press release made no mention of KTM, and the Red Bull Rookies web site states that the bike the rookies will be using next season is the Metrakit Pre GP 125.

And now the final nail in KTM's two-stroke road racing program is about to be struck. According to the ever informative GPOne.com, KTM is to announce at Estoril that they will be pulling out of the 125cc class at the end of this season. The decision has been forced by continuing poor financial results by the Austrian company, and will allow KTM to concentrate its resources on its RC8 racing program in various national Superbike and Superstock series. KTM's aim has long been to get the RC8R competitive enough to enter into the World Superbike series, a goal which they have yet to achieve. They are hoping that the added funds from the 125 program will help them make that final step.

KTM's withdrawal leaves Marc Marquez and Cameron Beaubier without a ride for next season. Marquez is being extensively courted by Derbi, and indeed his decision to join the Spanish-badged Aprilia team may well have precipitated KTM's final announcement. Beaubier is in a much more difficult position. The former Red Bull Rookie has had a very tough year, injury preventing him from performing as well as he is undoubtedly capable of. Without extensive backing, Beaubier could be out of a ride next season.

 

[julien_d]

Nice article Rich, but it has little relevance to two stroke sales. They are saving money by withdrawing from events, not manufacturing. Unless you are simply assuming that if they aren't going to sponsor racers in those classes they are also going to stop manufacturing 250's and 125's. I have heard no such rumors yet. Of course, I haven't been out looking for them either....

 

[Rich Rohrich]

Nice article Rich, but it has little relevance to two stroke sales.

It has everything to do with two-stroke sales and R&D if you think about it. KTM will no longer have a presence in GP racing, which in Europe is a big deal. Brand exposure on TV will be severely curtailed as a result, and the R&D dollars that drove two-stroke development in the 125 and 250 GP classes are getting diverted to four-stroke road bike development (RC8). They won't build as many 125 or 250 two-stroke engines if they are no longer producing road racers, so to be viable as a product line two-stroke dirt bike sales will have to increase by a substantial margin to maintain profitability for the product line. The opposite is currently happening.

None of this bodes well for future two-stroke development at KTM. From what I've been told, their sales numbers are way off this year, and the two-stroke dirt bike lines have taken the biggest hits in their numbers. The big Japanese companies are diverse enough to weather these storms, but if KTM doesn't sell motorcycles they are in serious trouble.

It's always tough to throw money at an under performing product, and this is especially true in a small company.
When a manufacturer is back on it's heels financially like KTM clearly is (just ask your local KTM dealer), there is less money to be divided up among the product lines.

Bottom line is, business results drive product development. As enthusiasts we would like to believe otherwise, but passion for a product goes out the door when dollars are at stake.

If that weren't true I could go to my local Yamaha dealer and buy a new RZ350.

 

[Joburble]

Are we talking about 2t vs 4t in general or are we talking about dirbike 2t vs 4t ? Doesn't what's goes on in GP racing have very little relevance to the weekend warrior wanting to buy a 2t enduro bike? When I first started racing MX as a teenager on a YZ125 I remember everyone (including myself) saying how great it would be to have something like the mighty TT500 in a decent mx frame. This was mainly because we were doing new rings every 20 hrs and pistons etc every 40, and the 4t motors needed rebuilding every whatever tens of thousands of miles. Yes we wanted 4t bikes but not for the speed. So now we have the 4t motor but it has a higher maintenance schedule than a 2 stroke. To cut down on the 2 stroke maintenance I just bought bigger bikes and I ended up with an IT465, bulletproof and with plenty of tractable power. Or for a better motor try the CR500. What was actually wrong with these motors that make the 4t lovers think the modern 4 stroke is so right? I just don't get it. Now the greatest thing since sliced bread is the revolutionary motor design of 4 stroke configuration to make them handle like 2 strokes, whaaaat! :coocoo:

 

[Rich Rohrich]

Are we talking about 2t vs 4t in general or are we talking about dirbike 2t vs 4t ? Doesn't what's goes on in GP racing have very little relevance to the weekend warrior wanting to buy a 2t enduro bike?

The engines in KTM 125 & 250 road racers are just modified MX two-strokes. The cost of R&D, tooling and production for an engine stays the same, but with no road racers the total number of "potential" sales gets cut dramatically. So the cost of each basic two-stroke engine gets higher on a unit cost basis.

So who will pay the difference?

KTM isn't making much money now, so they can't (and won't) absorb it. They proved that with the huge increase in the 2009 pricing structure at the start of the season that has driven people away from the showroom. This same lack of sales points to a buying public that is less than willing to pick up the cost difference.

So you have a huge price increase at the start of the 2009, and drastically reduced sales. For 2010 you have what points to a higher unit cost for the engines and less of a chance of further R&D on the products.

So explain to me how the same basic bikes that people were reluctant to buy in 2009, are suddenly going to become more attractive to the buying public in 2010 at a still higher cost?

If you can figure that one out, I'm sure there is a good job just waiting for you at KTM.

If you want further proof take a look at the article below from Motorcycle Product News.

KTM Starts U.S. Street Bike Division

KTM North America recently formed a Street Bike Division and subsequently named U.S.-born Brad Hagi division vice president. The company, whose Austria-based parent is primarily known for its off-road motorcycles, is pushing further into the street bike market with the move.

Hagi is an industry veteran with 20 years' experience. Before joining KTM, he worked for Ducati, most recently serving as director of distributor sales worldwide. Hagi is a graduate of Illinois State University with a background in engineering; he is an avid motorcyclist.

"Building our street business is a key strategy in our long-term business plans," says KTM president Jon-Erik Burleson. "Despite any existing market conditions, we are in the business for the long haul and see our premium European street product lineup as crucial for the financial strength of both KTM and our dealers." He continues, "Brad's experience in the sport bike market speaks for itself. With his time spent living and working in Europe added to his experience here in the U.S., he brings the perfect balance to achieve KTM's goal of being a successful European premium sport street brand in North America."

 

[longtime coming]

Gonna havta get a 250sx (to turn into a 300sx) sooner rather than later, I guess.

 

[PaulKDX250SR]

Are we talking about 2t vs 4t in general or are we talking about dirbike 2t vs 4t ? Doesn't what's goes on in GP racing have very little relevance to the weekend warrior wanting to buy a 2t enduro bike? When I first started racing MX as a teenager on a YZ125 I remember everyone (including myself) saying how great it would be to have something like the mighty TT500 in a decent mx frame. This was mainly because we were doing new rings every 20 hrs and pistons etc every 40, and the 4t motors needed rebuilding every whatever tens of thousands of miles. Yes we wanted 4t bikes but not for the speed. So now we have the 4t motor but it has a higher maintenance schedule than a 2 stroke. To cut down on the 2 stroke maintenance I just bought bigger bikes and I ended up with an IT465, bulletproof and with plenty of tractable power. Or for a better motor try the CR500. What was actually wrong with these motors that make the 4t lovers think the modern 4 stroke is so right? I just don't get it. Now the greatest thing since sliced bread is the revolutionary motor design of 4 stroke configuration to make them handle like 2 strokes, whaaaat!

:worship: :worship: :worship: Great Post!

That is some sombre reading re: KTM 2st sales. I remember reading a year or so ago about how KTM couldn't build two-stroke bikes fast enough.

 

[PaulKDX250SR]

I mean how can anyone turn their back on this :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CppmGnBiisA&feature=related

 

[julien_d]

Everything I have read from KTM public announcements indicates that KTM is furthering development of 2 stroke motors, electric motors, and 4 stroke motors. Pulling out from GP events will save them a lot of money for now, true. However, there is a lot of conjecture and assumption involved in "if you think about it".

Here's one fairly recent article by dealernews. Plenty more such articles floating around as well. I suppose only time will tell, but publicly, KTM is still touting the benefit of the 2t engine.

"We're not giving up on two-strokes," is something you may have heard KTM leadership say during the OEM's recent dealer meetings.

Now, further underlining KTM's commitment to the engine configuration, KTM CEO Stefan Pierer says the company has initiated the development of even more powerful, quieter and less-polluting two-stroke powerplants — which by design are lighter, easier to work on and less expensive than four-stroke engines.

"At KTM the two-stroke will continue to remain an integral part of the future model planning," Pierer says. "It was always clear to us that the two-stroke engine would play an important role."

Pierer points to the more than 20,000 KTM customers who opted to buy a two-stroke in the past financial year as evidence for the continuing demand for such engines. He also emphasizes the benefit such an engine design has for young riders. "Here we are speaking about a very influential target group of consumers for whom the two-stroke is unbeatable in terms of efficiency and costs," he says.

While some major OEMs are promoting a vehicle lineup comprised entirely of four-strokes, expect KTM to continue to dabble in multiple engine configurations: two-stroke, four-stroke and even electric. "There will be good opportunities for all of this technology," Pierer says. "Also, with the range of engine development, we must consider a market situation that will be more intensely specialized and directed toward niches."

Here's a less abridged version, straight from ktm.com...

http://www.ktm.com/Detail.100051.0.html?&nodeID=106631&cHash=075f8a85de

Basically it adds up to about HALF of ktm's total off road sales last financial year being 2 strokes. Sounds like 2t sales are really hurting them, doesn't it? I'm no huge KTM fan, but they may be the first to bring us cleaner burning direct injected 2 stroke engines. If other manufacturers follow, the 2t may indeed hang around for quite a lot longer than some would like to think.

 

[Rich Rohrich]

I hope I'm wrong, but KTM's (or any company's) marketing department pronouncements don't always prove to be the best indicators of the real future. I wouldn't be surprised to see them advance electric and KERS bike technology over two-strokes going forward.

Time will tell I guess.