touchy subjuct

[will pattison]

wow. this is wack. what must the poor dude who asked the original question be thinking right now?

:whoa:

i'm thinking....i just wasted a bunch of time reading this, and since i think i may be the only one with any kind of an actual answer to his question, it would only compound the waste if i didn't give it.

so, here are some facts:

i ride.

a lot - once a week like i breath every day.

woods and mx.

i jump.

i turn.

i go thru trees.

i have been doing the above for most of 30 years.

i blew my left acl 4 years ago. my doc - a sports medicine specialist - said he saw no value in repairs because at my age - 32 at the time - i could make my knee just as strong thru exercise and preventative measures. preventative measures, as in, knee braces.

so, over the last 4 years, i have spent lots of time in BOTH asterisks and evs webs. here are some more facts in that regard:

i still have my asterisks.

i sold my webs.

my asterisks do loosen over time, but have otherwise been unbelievably bulletproof.

asterisks cost $600

my evs continually needed work....pads coming unglued, etc.

evs cost $700

my asterisks have a lace-up system that holds them on. the small latch that secures them is painful to my thumb when i unlatch them.

my evs had 4 large elastic straps with velcro to hold them to my leg. they slipped down more than my cells, and the velcro was always catching on my pant liners.

the asterisks are smaller in overall size, and this shows up if your riding pants aren't cut generously. i like a lot of room to bend (you know, so as not to constrict my forward flagellation and circulation :nener: ), so with certain riding pants, my evs were not a good solution - they made my leg almost 4" larger in circumfrence.

evs run small. they say measure 8" above and below the center of the kneecap. at those points my leg is 21" and 16" around, respectively. in an asterisk, that's a perfect medium. in an evs, it's a perfect large. other evs users told me similar stories.

so, that's it for the absolute facts. make of them what you will.

useless anecdotal editorial starts here:

i believe the number of instances where my knee was in danger has been far greater than those where my femur was in danger. poor technique? maybe, but radrick, i bet that not only am i one of the only people on this forum who's got extensive experience with both brands, but that i'm faster than you think you are.

:boss:

wp.

 

[Chili]

I've never worn either brace so take my opinion as nothing more than anecdotal information. My son has and continues to wear Asterisks, he has broken his femur while wearing them, would he have saved the femur and thrashed the knee without them? Who knows, 3rd gear cartwheel job through a rhythm section can do a lot of damage.

None of this is relevant to the OP question asking to compare the two products however, so I'll add that one of our close friends bought the EVS webs after failing to be able to get a reasonable price on the Asterisks up here in Canada. After a couple of rides and comparing them side by side to my son's Cells he sold his EVS Webs and bought the Asterisks based on the quality and his perceived value in the protection the cells offered over the webs.

 

[Okiewan]

but that i'm faster than you think you are.

And that aint anecdotal :nod:

 

[Vic]

i believe the number of instances where my knee was in danger has been far greater than those where my femur was in danger.

Bottom line.

 

[RM_guy]

...

wp.

Finally something worth reading!!! Thanks Will. :cool:

 

[Jaybird]

Mr. Diaz,
Are you all healed up from your knee surgery this past year?

 

[Patman]

That darn WP throwing out factual info with a direct comparison, always messin' up the inflated ego types. :rotfl:

Great info Will! And yes I to concur you are fast on a bike but not at eating marshmallows ;)

 

[Masterphil]

FACT:
A femur takes quite a bit of force to break.
FACT:
If you applied the same force required to break a femur, your knee would likely be damaged beyond repair.
FACT:
Soft tissue injuries take longer to heal than bone breaks and are never 100% again.

Opinion:
Lets, just for a second, assume that knee braces offer NO protection to the knee joint or it's connective tissues. How many people have broken a patella? The asterisk would likely have prevented that. Where's that thread where Thump's bike attempted to chop his leg in half? After seeing Pics of Thumps Asterisks, I can say that there would have been some serious damage to Thump's leg/knee if he hadn't been wearing them. Even if knee braces only protect my knee from hitting things, they are worth it to me.
Thump's thread:
http://www.dirtrider.net/forums3/showthread.php?t=76156&highlight=asterisk

 

[MX-727]

BTW, Dirt Rider, the magazine, has a knee brace comparison in the latest issue including a doctor's opinion of the braces. TWMX rated the new version of the Cell in their latest issue.

If you read what I read, get the Cells. Based on my own experience with the Cells, they are a great brace and I won't ride without them.

 

[RADRick]

Mr. Diaz,
Are you all healed up from your knee surgery this past year?

I haven't had any knee surgery this year or last. Do I know you?

 

[ellandoh]

http://www.dirtrider.net/forums3/showthread.php?t=76156&highlight=asterisk

do us all a favor and PLEASE, list any pertinent info such as above thread link, prior to the multiple pages of verbal diarrhea :)

that thread you posted is in the process of selling another set of *'s. thanks for posting , i thought i was doing good with thor knee guards :think: maybe not

 

[RADRick]

FACT:
A femur takes quite a bit of force to break.

True.

FACT: If you applied the same force required to break a femur, your knee would likely be damaged beyond repair.

Not necessarily, especially if it is encased in a rigid brace. The leg has tremendous flexibility provided by the ankle and knee joints. Wrapping the ankle in a stiff boot and the knee in a device to prevent rotation deprives the leg of much of this flexibility. You've now made a stiff lever out of the lower leg, one that is more able to exert the required pressure on the femur to break it.

FACT: Soft tissue injuries take longer to heal than bone breaks and are never 100% again.

Not true at all. You should be careful when speaking in absolutes.Mod Edit - Both of you idiots need to knock it off right now

I never said that knee braces were a bad thing, only that they aren't such a good thing that EVERY rider needs to wear them. The situations where they can be a positive may never happen to the average rider, but the negatives they can bring are present all the time they are being worn. You can attack me all you want for saying that, but it doesn't change that FACT.

 

[mtk]

I never said that knee braces were a bad thing, only that they aren't such a good thing that EVERY rider needs to wear them. The situations where they can be a positive may never happen to the average rider, but the negatives they can bring are present all the time they are being worn. You can attack me all you want for saying that, but it doesn't change that FACT.

That assumes that your contentions are actually factual in nature, which is something I don't believe to be the case.

 

[RADRick]

That assumes that your contentions are actually factual in nature, which is something I don't believe to be the case.

Go back and click the link I provided earlier. There is clinical evidence that while braces do reduce injuries in football players at many positions, there is also evidence that they contribute to joint fatigue, performance restriction and blood flow. There has not been enough study of their direct relationship to motorcycle usage to warrant making a blanket recommendation of them to all riders. That's all I'm saying.

 

[ellandoh]

Radrick your argument sounds alot like the seatbelt cutting the T-boned driver in half. Who here wears a seat belt and knows of someone that would still be here if they werent wearing one? (my hand is raised)

if your argument is that slow folks dont need them, i know a slow guy who should've been wearing them, but know nobody whos ever said they shouldnt :think:

you act like everyone who is in this thread is directly attacking your perspective , which isnt true until you keep trying to force it on them

 

[ellandoh]

There has not been enough study of their direct relationship to motorcycle usage to warrant making a blanket recommendation of them to all riders. QUOTE]

say that once more so we can all hear the main focus of that statement "THERE HAS NOT BEEN ENOUGH STUDY OF THEIR DIRECT RELATIONSHIP TO MOTORCYCLE USAGE" to warrant making any statement, is my guess

 

[RADRick]

Radrick your argument sounds alot like the seatbelt cutting the T-boned driver in half. Who here wears a seat belt and knows of someone that would still be here if they werent wearing one? (my hand is raised)

There are documented cases of people who were thrown clear of an vehicular accident with minimal injuries because they weren't wearing a seat belt. There are also cases of people who drowned in vehicles because in their panic they couldn't get the seat belt undone. Neither is a compelling argument against seat belts, IMO, but they underline the reality that nothing is absolute when it comes to safety gear.

if your argument is that slow folks dont need them, i know a slow guy who should've been wearing them, but know nobody whos ever said they shouldnt :think:

That isn't my argument and I never posted that. I've always contended that there are riders that should probably wear them due to their ability and risk level, but that each rider should assess whether they need them on an individual basis and not on a blanket recommendation. Braces are not like helmets in terms of protection.

you act like everyone who is in this thread is directly attacking your perspective , which isnt true until you keep trying to force it on them

The only thing I'm trying to force on anyone is that they get as much information from reliable sources and determine for themselves whether they need them rather than being scared into using them by some rider's gory picture or anecdotal experience. The femur issue is real, I didn't invent it. I made no comment about how often it happens, just that there is some evidence that it does and that braces are suspected to contribute to it. For expressing that alone I've been subjected to being called all kinds of childish names, stupid insults and written off as a kook. That's fine, I can take it. If even one person reading this thread takes the time to consult his doctor and weigh his options BEFORE making a decision, I've accomplished what I set out to do. I see a lot of riders who blindly buy things with nothing more than "pro racer so-and-so uses it or endorses it" as a basis. To some degree, magazines perpetuate the problem since it's hard to separate commerce from the equation, but I try to bring a little more perspective into a discussion when I can. If you read my article on coolants in the July issue of Dirt Rider, you know I'm no industry shill. I don't buy the hype.

 

[RADRick]

There has not been enough study of their direct relationship to motorcycle usage to warrant making a blanket recommendation of them to all riders. QUOTE]

say that once more so we can all hear the main focus of that statement "THERE HAS NOT BEEN ENOUGH STUDY OF THEIR DIRECT RELATIONSHIP TO MOTORCYCLE USAGE" to warrant making any statement, is my guess

But there have been studies done that point out the negatives of brace use in athletes, so that statement HAS been made. I cited just one that I found doing a simple search. Is that enough to dissuade one from using them? We each have to decide for ourselves.

 

[XRpredator]

I heard there were monster trucks in the bible

 

[Jaybird]

I haven't had any knee surgery this year or last. Do I know you?

I just find it interesting that exactly one year ago, you claimed to have had 7 previous knee surgeries. I could only assume that you had another surgery within the past year....
or perhpas you are full of it, embellish often, and tend to lose track?

From having discussions with you in the past, and coming away from those discussions feeling like you had only a slight inkling of a clue about the subject matter, but carried on as if you were indeed a versed expert, I can only assume that your information is very typical of a "freelance journalist".


"I'm a seasoned actor", the man said as he handed her the double mocha decaf latte, and her change....
:rotfl:

 

[Masterphil]

Go back and click the link I provided earlier. There is clinical evidence that while braces do reduce injuries in football players at many positions, there is also evidence that they contribute to joint fatigue, performance restriction and blood flow.

Good thing we're talking about football.

There has not been enough study of their direct relationship to motorcycle usage to warrant making a blanket recommendation of them to all riders.

Having said that, what are you trying to prove in this thread. You already ended your own argument.

I heard there were monster trucks in the bible

You're right, I think I read somewhere in there, "Thou shalt not use knee braces!"

 

[RADRick]

I just find it interesting that exactly one year ago, you claimed to have had 7 previous knee surgeries. I could only assume that you had another surgery within the past year....
or perhpas you are full of it, embellish often, and tend to lose track?

You're right, it was only seven. Four on the right, three on the left, and they go back as far as 1985 with the last two having been in 2004. I've had a lot of surgeries in the past 20 years (and more than 8 since 1999) so forgive me for losing track. If that's a reason to discredit anything I say, so be it.

From having discussions with you in the past, and coming away from those discussions feeling like you had only a slight inkling of a clue about the subject matter, but carried on as if you were indeed a versed expert, I can only assume that your information is very typical of a "freelance journalist".

Again I ask, do I know you? You're not DigilubeJay on TT, by any chance? I was a staff editor for as many years as a freelancer, and many of them at Primedia. I don't know why you think calling me a "freelance journalist" is some kind of denigration. All it shows is your complete lack of knowledge of the publishing business.

 

[RADRick]

Good thing we're talking about football.

You're pretty good with the obvious, aren't you? The only clinical data available has to do with stick and ball sports, mainly football. No study that I know of or could find has been done on knee braces and motorcycle sports. There is no empirical or scientific basis yet for recommending their use to riders beyond the anecdotal. So many of the responders in this thread are quick to recommend braces to the OP without knowing anything about him, his riding style, his ability or even what kind of riding he does. At least I gave him something to think about instead of treating him like a sheep.

Having said that, what are you trying to prove in this thread. You already ended your own argument.

Hey, I left it alone for days (I was out riding without braces). You and others decided to resurrect it with childish personal attacks. If you want to debate the merits of an argument, that's fine, but leave the childish personal insults out of it. Why you and some others are so hung up on ball size is beyond me. :whoa:

 

[Okiewan]

Why someone of your obvious metal capacity stoops to responding to "childish insults" is beyond me. :)

 

[Masterphil]

Why someone of your obvious metal capacity stoops to responding to "childish insults" is beyond me. :)

Shup, dumb-dumb sucker head :nener: