touchy subjuct

[mtk]

Yeah, the only data out there is on stick-and-ball sports.

However, the differences between football and motocross are so vast as to make the comparisons virually meaningless.

One small example: it is relatively easy to catch your foot on a root or rut and hurt your knee. "Hurt" in this case can mean anything from a minor "tweak" that hurts a bit but does no damage up to a bunch of blown ligaments and everything in between. Doing something similar in football is EXCEEDINGLY difficult, if not totally impossible. Just like it is pretty difficult to have a 300lb lineman roll on your leg and blow out your knee in motocross.

Drawing conclusions about apples, based upon a bunch of data collected on oranges, is generally not going to yield meaningful results.

 

[RADRick]

Why someone of your obvious metal capacity stoops to responding to "childish insults" is beyond me. :)

What does my medical hardware have to do with anything? :laugh:

 

[RADRick]

Yeah, the only data out there is on stick-and-ball sports.

However, the differences between football and motocross are so vast as to make the comparisons virually meaningless.

Not really. The force of hooking a root/rut at speed can be equal to the force transmitted to the knee when a football player plants a foot and then twists his torso or has it twisted by impact with another player. More so if that player weighs upwards of 250 pounds. I think the chance for injury is probably higher in that regard for a football player than a motorcycle rider, but I haven't seen any statistical analyses comparing the level of incidence of the two. While the mechanisms of injury may be different, the results are basically the same.

Drawing conclusions about apples, based upon a bunch of data collected on oranges, is generally not going to yield meaningful results.

I agree, which is why I'd like to see more study done. But the two mechanisms of injury aren't so different as to exclude the observations already done from consideration.

 

[Okiewan]

What does my medical hardware have to do with anything? :laugh:

:bang:

 

[ellandoh]

gotta go , its Hee Haw weekend on CMT :nod:

 

[Jaybird]

What does my medical hardware have to do with anything? :laugh:

Do you also have a plate in your head that causes stuff to just bounce around?

Seriously,
You can argue all day long until the cows come home about how there are folks who should not wear kneee braces, but you will never be able to provide any sort of conclusive evidence that you would be correct.

It seems to me an idiots argument. Why would you try to contend that a person would be better off without protective gear? You may well be able to argue the merits of some types of gear over others, but to contend that some of us simply are doing harm by using any gear at all is an excersize in absurdity.

Another point that I would think clearly obvious...is that you have had multiple knee surgeries over the years, yet you don't advocate the use of knee braces. Could it be that you yourself are the best evidence there is for the argument opposing yours?

And when you bring up the skill of the riders...I also find that to be quite a stretch at an argument. I know guys who are very very fast, yet do not jump at all, or very little.
Not to drag anyone into this, but Grady is a prime example of a man who can ride the hide off a bike, yet when it comes to the big jumps and whoops, he backs off. He is a woods man and not a motocrosser, and he would probably be in a C-D class at a track. But he reaches the same speeds as the A riders in many sections. Just because he is not an A MXer, would that disqualify him as a candidate for knee protection, with your thinking?

And I don;t discount the advise that an OS would give. And in most cases they are going to tell you the best thing you can do is to strengthen the appendage to it's top potential.
And I agree that we do need to train our muscles and keep our knees in top form if we are going to do this crazy sport. But what is wrong with adding the protection of a device in conjunction with strength training?

Also, it is painfully obvious that NO amount of training is going to help your kneecap when you have a get off and bang it.

 

[RADRick]

Do you also have a plate in your head that causes stuff to just bounce around?

You are a perfect example of how when someone gets an attitude, it prevents them from seeing anything else. My response that you quoted was a joke aimed at Okie's misspelling of mental as metal in his comment. I was trying to make light of it, but you are so determined to find some way to bash me that you missed it. Sorry if you have no sense of humor.

Seriously,
You can argue all day long until the cows come home about how there are folks who should not wear kneee braces, but you will never be able to provide any sort of conclusive evidence that you would be correct.

And until you can point to some clinical evidence that says otherwise, you can't prove me wrong, either.

It seems to me an idiots argument. Why would you try to contend that a person would be better off without protective gear? You may well be able to argue the merits of some types of gear over others, but to contend that some of us simply are doing harm by using any gear at all is an excersize in absurdity.

Once again, another mischaracterization of what I've said. I never decried the use of any protective gear. I simply said that there are other considerations that should be evaluated beforehand and that there is no clinical evidence to support the use of knee braces by all riders.

Another point that I would think clearly obvious...is that you have had multiple knee surgeries over the years, yet you don't advocate the use of knee braces. Could it be that you yourself are the best evidence there is for the argument opposing yours?

Had any of those injuries been the result of a dirt bike incident, I might agree with you. Since they weren't, I won't.

And when you bring up the skill of the riders...I also find that to be quite a stretch at an argument. I know guys who are very very fast, yet do not jump at all, or very little.
Not to drag anyone into this, but Grady is a prime example of a man who can ride the hide off a bike, yet when it comes to the big jumps and whoops, he backs off. He is a woods man and not a motocrosser, and he would probably be in a C-D class at a track. But he reaches the same speeds as the A riders in many sections. Just because he is not an A MXer, would that disqualify him as a candidate for knee protection, with your thinking?

Again, I said it has more to do with the individual rider and not any blanket basis determined by nothing but anecdotal evidence. Something like knee brace use should be determined on a personal basis that takes many factors into consideration, not just what ability level the rider is or the type of riding they do.

And I don;t discount the advise that an OS would give. And in most cases they are going to tell you the best thing you can do is to strengthen the appendage to it's top potential.

One of my doctors is also a rider. He doesn't wear them and he doesn't recommend them for all riders. He, like me, believes that strength conditioning and being comfortable on the bike are equally as important.

And I agree that we do need to train our muscles and keep our knees in top form if we are going to do this crazy sport. But what is wrong with adding the protection of a device in conjunction with strength training?

Nothing, if you determine they're right for you. But I ride with a number of people who wear them for no other reason than the pros do. That's not a good reason, IMO. When we finish a ride they can't wait to get the things off, especially during warmer months. I've worn them and felt the same way. We make risk-based judgments every time we get on a bike. Why is this any different? If we start saying knee braces should be required of all riders, why not neck rolls? What not elbow protection? Why not a cup? Each rider has to find his own comfort zone and protection level beyond boots, helmets, and gloves. Not have it dictated to them by the marketing department of some gear manufacturer. Riding is a risky proposition.

Also, it is painfully obvious that NO amount of training is going to help your kneecap when you have a get off and bang it.

Which is why I do wear knee protection. It provides impact as well as hyperextension protection without the bulk, rigidity and discomfort I feel wearing braces. I also wear ankle braces, padded shorts, elbow guards, and a full chest protector. No amount of gear is a guarantee against injury. I wear what I feel comfortable in for the majority of situations I get into. If I ever start feeling more vulnerable, I might change my mind, but I can't live my life based solely on what may or may not happen. That's just no fun.

OK, can we put this to rest already? :laugh:

 

[Jaybird]

I'm almost done, but there are acouple of things that I need to clarify...

You are a perfect example of how when someone gets an attitude, it prevents them from seeing anything else. My response that you quoted was a joke aimed at Okie's misspelling of mental as metal in his comment. I was trying to make light of it, but you are so determined to find some way to bash me that you missed it. Sorry if you have no sense of humor.

Aaaa...Dewd...I completely understood that Okie made a typo. That is where I got the metal plate thing. And perhpas it is your attitude that blinded you from seeing that I was merely continuing the joke.
Sheesh.... :(

Ahhh...I think I have it figured out now...you are taking the position of your OS.
Do you all go snow skiing together?
:rotfl:

 

[Masterphil]

Do you all go snow skiing together?

Talk about some crazy side loads on a knee.

 

[RADRick]

Talk about some crazy side loads on a knee.

Word! I originally tore my right ACL at work, but I was also a skier back then and it did nothing to help the recovery. After my 4th knee surgery in 1988, I gave up skiing for good.

 

[xxBLAZExx]

Do you all go snow skiing together?
:rotfl:

:rotfl: I think they missed it Jay :rotfl:

 

[RADRick]

Aaaa...Dewd...I completely understood that Okie made a typo. That is where I got the metal plate thing. And perhpas it is your attitude that blinded you from seeing that I was merely continuing the joke.
Sheesh.... :(

No, it was your lack of a smiley. No harm, no foul. So long as the funnin' is good natured, I can take a joke. Glad we cleared that up. ;)

 

[MX-727]

I've read doctor's opinions and seen studies that prophylactic knee braces may not provide much of a benefit. However, the braces in question here are NOT prophylactic braces, but are instead, functional braces.

I also am not convinced that any study of football players or skiers can be of much value when discussing motocross. Our knees aren't being used in the same way while riding. We don't have the direction changes and side loads that other "foot controlled" sports have. MX riders are looking for protection from the catastrophic injury than comes from crashing or nearly crashing.

I also find it hard to believe that there is any way to strengthen the joint enough to offset the forces that a 225+ pound motorcycle can exert on the joint. When you consider any amount of speed, the math just doesn't work.

I guess if one makes the argument that protecting a joint is actually bad for it, we should all work on strengthing our ankles and stop wearing over the ankle boots.

Here is a link that discusses the various types of braces, and shows what they are talking about when discussing Prophylactic Knee Braces vs. Functional Knee Braces.

http://www.aafp.org/afp/20000115/411.html

 

[VintageDirt]

All I know is, I'd be enjoying this argument a lot more over a frosty malt beverage, oh, here's one now. :aj:

Carry on, problem solvers of the world. :nener:

 

[RADRick]

MX727, excellent find. A link from that page took me to this quote:
"In general, functional braces and rehabilitative braces are the most effective. Braces help some people more than others. Some doctors and trainers think that knee braces may actually increase the number of knee injuries in athletes. In general, most people who wear knee braces think that they help. Doctors are trying to learn more about how well knee braces really work and when it's best to use them. Remember, the need for a brace should be determined by your doctor."

And: "Braces don't seem to work well to stop knee injuries from happening. Get your doctor's advice if you want to try a knee brace."

And: "Knee braces are the least important part of preventing knee injuries or getting better after an injury. Even with a knee brace on, you could still injure your knee. Stretching, strengthening, and sports technique improvement are much more important."

Sounds suspiciously like what I said in my first post in this thread and several posts since. But I'm a moron who posts things as fact with no basis. :laugh:

 

[Masterphil]

I guess if one makes the argument that protecting a joint is actually bad for it, we should all work on strengthing our ankles and stop wearing over the ankle boots.

:cool:

 

[muddy226]

I don't know anything about knee braces, but thought I'd just point out that Stefan Everts does not use them, and he has been riding at top level for many years. As far as I know he has lost little or no racing time due to knee injury, although he has had considerable time off with other injuries. I have had minor surgery on both knees, the damage being caused by walking on rough ground, and a couple of years ago broke a tibia by twisting and had no knee damage. It seems to me that the question of whether or not to use them would be best answered by a specialist sports injury practitioner than a moto-crosser !

 

[RADRick]

It seems to me that the question of whether or not to use them would be best answered by a specialist sports injury practitioner than a moto-crosser !

Well, what do you know? Apparently, there is some intelligence in this forum after all. And from across the pond, no less. :cool:

 

[Okiewan]

So, one top rider (other than noodle knees Pastrana (who now DOES wear braces, btw) and a freelance torn-up knee "writer") doesn't wear braces and has been lucky enough to avoid destroy'd knees and that is all the evidence we need?

Weak, so freakin weak. Meanwhile, the top 20-30-40? fastest, most sucessful riders on the planet.. all wear braces. Apparently, they should have consulted with RadRick... ?

All the top pro's in the US AND Europe, all the mags and the vast majority of those on the web agree... and yet RadRick comes to our rescue and saves us the $...

For a "Freelance" (which really means, "mostly unemployed") writer RadRick, you sure have a closed brain and of course, crap knees.

 

[Jaybird]

:|

Well, what do you know? Apparently, there is some intelligence in this forum after all. And from across the pond, no less. :cool:

This from a carpetbagger of the literary world?
I find your comments smarmy and tasteless to say the least.
Kidding around is one thing, but making comments that elude to there not being anyone of intelligence in this forum goes a bit far, IMO.

I find you to be a self-righteous, pompous, asswipe that tends to hear bits and pieces of something and runs with it as if you had an experts clue.

Perhaps you should stick to something you actually know, like...how to jerry-rig WR's.
:rotfl:

 

[RADRick]

Weak, so freakin weak. Meanwhile, the top 20-30-40? fastest, most sucessful riders on the planet.. all wear braces. Apparently, they should have consulted with RadRick... ?

Don't be an arse just because you own the forum. All I've ever said is that they aren't for everybody. All you and some others have said is, "The pros wear 'em, so should you."

All the top pro's in the US AND Europe, all the mags and the vast majority of those on the web agree... and yet RadRick comes to our rescue and saves us the $...

Yeah, it's tough being the voice of reason sometimes, but I do it willingly.

For a "Freelance" (which really means, "mostly unemployed") writer RadRick, you sure have a closed brain and of course, crap knees.

I suggest that riders get as much information as possible before making a decision instead of relying on anecdotal info and high-dollar marketing campaigns while you tell people to just be sheep and wear them no matter what, and I am the closed minded one? Go figure. :whoa:

 

[RADRick]

This from a carpetbagger of the literary world?

Exactly what qualifies you to say that of me?

I find your comments smarmy and tasteless to say the least. Kidding around is one thing, but making comments that elude to there not being anyone of intelligence in this forum goes a bit far, IMO.

Hey, I didn't point any fingers. Why so offended? Some of the replies in this thread were aboslutely, positively childish and had no merit whatsoever. Are you saying every post was intelligently made? Man, you really set the bar low, then.

I find you to be a self-righteous, pompous, asswipe that tends to hear bits and pieces of something and runs with it as if you had an experts clue.

Bits and pieces? Wow, you accuse me of all kinds of indignities, yet you are blind to your own shallow review of the situation. All this invective you guys keep heaping on me simply because you have an obvious axe to grind with motojournalists. Bits and pieces...now that's funny. :rotfl:

Perhaps you should stick to something you actually know, like...how to jerry-rig WR's.
:rotfl:

Oh no you di'nt! Attacking WRs? Them there's fighting words. :laugh:

 

[Okiewan]

Ok Rad ... whatever bro. I tried.
The world is wrong, you're right. You are allowed no more of my time.

 

[Rich Rohrich]

. If you read my article on coolants in the July issue of Dirt Rider, you know I'm no industry shill. I don't buy the hype.

This I've GOT TO read. :p

If anyone has a copy of this issue please let me know. ;)

 

[RADRick]

Ok Rad ... whatever bro. I tried.
The world is wrong, you're right. You are allowed no more of my time.

You tried what? To belittle me with your every post? Yeah, you sure did. You've been insulting to me out of the gate. I've tried posting some references, you still dismissed me. I tried using humor, you still attack me. Whatever. I'm leaving for a month of fun in Miami tomorrow morning so take your shots while I'm away (4 weeks vacation, not bad for an unemployed "freelancer," huh?). I won't have much time to rebutt anything you post so do your worst. Maybe if you weren't so critical of your members you'd have more than just the handful or so that post regularly. Heck, this has been the most lively thread on here in a loooooong time. You should pay me to stir the $hit more often. :laugh:

Oh, and don't call me bro. I don't like it when even my real bro calls me that.