Trail Riding w/ Tire Screws

[INCA]

Will using too many screws result in less traction and control?

If I were thinking of starting trouble, tire would not be in the thread title.

This is prompted due to my limited experience and observation trail riding with studded tires. My hope is that this will be a pleasant discussion from which we can gain knowledge and perhaps a laugh or two.

On last Saturdays ride I don't know that there was ever a lack of traction with 68 screws, two in each center knob. On the front there was only one in each center knob, alternating right and left. With screws on the sides also, the 'snow plow' excursion may not have happened. In general, I never felt there was a lack of control. My other crashes were due to balance and taking turns too slow. When following Pat or Mark, never even got close to fred, I could see their tires bringing up leaves and sand when twisting the right wrist. Since I didn't follow myself, I don't know what kind of trail I left.

Young Ted

 

[slow_joe]

I kind of thought that too many screw in on knob might cause them to load up and not clear out. Not sure though.

 

[YZMAN400]

My rule of thumb is you can never have enough traction in the snow. More is better.

Here is my old rear tire (retired last year)

No real logic to how the screws were installed. I think the pattern morphed outta necessity. When a screw pulled out here I would stuff a new one in over there. It may have started out with a pattern but ended up with screws anywhere I could find fresh rubber. It finially got so bad that it needed to be retired.

I have a new rear for this year. I am not too fond of the studding (or lack of compared to my old one)but it seems to work. I have plans in the work for some modifications to this tire to make it more trail worthy in the winter while hopefully staying together a little better than the old one.

My new front tire I just installed has one screw in each knob. That seems to work just fine. Here is my old snow tire. Still works fine but has sinice been replaced with an "Upgrade"

 

[3KDXXR2]

Great Pictures Don :cool:

 

[woodsy]

IMHO - again IMHO.....
Back in the early 70's we would use sheet metal screws and we filled EVERY nob to its fullest potential..
Later in life the Ice Guys started getting regualtions passed on official Ice Screws and they are really the ones responsible for the modern day approved Screw for Ice racing..
Installing the modern sharp edged screw has become as much a personal matter as the type of nobs we run.. Concenring the amount of screws Ted, haing to many will never cause you the problems that to few of screws will... In Michigan we call the guy who has to few - one who's elevator dont go all the way up - or, someone who is not playing with a full deck... Thankfully niether you nor I have to worry about this to much - mainly because of the type of people we hang out with and that we therfore compare ourselfs to...
Back to the question at hand... Due to the purpose of screws and the common ground that they are used in, alot can be learned from snowmobile guys.. Back in 72 Arctic Cat came out with "Cat Claws" for use on sleds ( I was working for Cat at the time and remember them well).. This really got things
brewing in the industry.. Someone back then came up with the idea of "skid patterning" your sled with the purpose of getting just the right amount of claws in without adding to much track wieght.. I have used this philosiphy thru the years very sucessfully in both sled stud applicatoin and tire screw installation.. I know that LOTS of old school sledders use it too and it works..
Soooo, here what you do.. You install a couple rows of studs/screws and slide the machine across the concrete or ice an look at the pattern it leaves.. WHat you look for are studs/screws that are falling into the direct path of the screws in front of them.. Then you also look for areas that have no marks.. You develope a skid pattern with as much coverage as possible with as few of studs as possible..
GIven, stud weight on a track is huge compared to the weight of screws in our tires BUT why carry anymore weight then necessary??
ANother issue of concern for us woods riders has always been TIRES - GOOD SHARP NOBBY TIRES!!!
I have found that, as in the summer, same is the winter!! Start with a good sharp (preferably NEW) nobbed tire - front and rear. I always really liked the MASSIVE nobs of the Chen Ching 760 for snow riding.. I would have one on Kadie right now if it had an 18 inch rear rim.. ANother favorite of mine thruy the years was the Lugona Cross as it had a natural paddle shape to follow and gave an AWESOME "U" shape for the screws!! You then place the screws on the leading edge of the nobs.. On the rear ALL of the main center nobs should have a single row of screws across the leading edge. The side nobs are fine with just a couple on the leading edge BUT it doesnt hurt to compete them too.. Because of "skid patterning" I believe tghat putting screws in behind the leading edge screws is not only unnecessary but it is using up good rubber that can be used to hold scerws aafter the intital install have ripped themselfs out and been thrown at some unsuspection fellow rider who is trying to pass you - Mark Weissenborn as an example..
ALWAYS check for clearance on the bike before riding with screws guys - these suckers WILL take out a swingarm/frame/exhaust pipe in a heart beat!!
Front tire should have at least one screw in EVERY nob.. Put them at the leading edge again and you will get better traction on slippery logs and stuff.. What you dont want is for the rubber to to make contact before the screw itself does.. Picture you riding up to a 4 inch log laying at an angle across the trail under the snow.. Neither you nor your bike know that it is there.. With center mounted screws your nobs have a good chance of making contact with the log surface and creating a washout with a helmet full of snow being the end result.. Of course, this is great fun for those following you but not so much fun for you or, if your wife does your laundry and is not used to that poopy smell in your drawers, the person cleaning up the skid marks..
What you want out of your front tire is to have scerw surfaces make intital contact with the surface!!! Of course weight is also an issue on the front - especially when going over 30 mph..
I had a completely screwed out front tire on the fornt of a bike once and had it come off the rim at high speeds.. Talk about a head shaking - butt twiching monster!! The tube of the tire actualy came out and was rubbing on my forks. All this on a gravel road doing well above 70 MPH!! Yea, WEIGHT and balancing thereof is an issue!!!
I have tryed many of the modern day screws and have lost a few (chew on that Ted). I have found that Kold Kutters hold their edge the best!! I purchaed a few thousand of the Gold Brand a couple years ago, they are a little longer in height but they are not as hard as Kutters..
I know a guy who is playing with using 1" or longer screws in his tires and will may be trying kkkksoome actual sled studs (carbide) in the near future.. It wil be interesting to see how that pans out.. If he goes screaming by me in the woods I will probably folow suite.. If one of those suckers come out and goes thru his crankcase I will probably pass ;)
ANother word on altering tires.. Watch out for HARD surfaces!! Pavement, large rocks and the like become DANGEROUS instantly when your on metal!!! Ask Larry how fast you can faceplant if your not careful!!!
All the above pertains to WOODS riding - NOT ice racing.. Ice racing is a competlty different animal!!
Sorry no pics right now but maybe later today.. I know I have an XT500 in the gargage that someone wanted a pic of too.. Maybe I will try and get a shot of what I am talking about as well as the XT later today...
Snow is here gang!! Quoting my good friend Rich (and YT2) - LETS RIDE!!!
Woodsy :ride:

 

[YZMAN400]

skid patterning

So thats what I was doing a few years back on my banshee. I had some Cheng Ching 18" ice tires. I put one stud per knob. When you would gas it the studs would make nice row like groves in the ice till the rubber hit the ice apon which you stoped going forward.

So me being who I am I got out the calipers and layed out my knobby pattern on my cad system at work and figured out the optimum placement of the studs on the knobs to get maximum coverage on the ice. Worked like a charm. That thing was a holeshot machine after that.


Snowmibile studs in a dirtbike tire....I dont know what you are talking about :think: What kind of Luna-Tech would do something like that :yikes:

 

[woodsy]

I knew you wouldnt be able to resist that one Don :moon:
You should show off your digger of front tire there buddy!! That friggen thing could be a replacement for a tire on a John Deere Tractor!!! GUARANTEED to hold traction on the worst of glaciers!!!!!! I also hear that True Green is purchasing 1500 of them to be used as Lawn Arrators on the front their lawn mowers...

 

[YZMAN400]

You should show off your digger of front tire there buddy!! That friggen thing could be a replacement for a tire on a John Deere Tractor!!! GUARANTEED to hold traction on the worst of glaciers!!!!!! I also hear that True Green is purchasing 1500 of them to be used as Lawn Arrators on the front their lawn mowers...

That would be this one??

Made it using these parts

It used to look like ==> this <== but I thought they were a tad too long so I put 1/4" shorter ones. I like it much better now.

 

[woodsy]

Thats my good buddie Don the YZMAN400 folks!! If he does happen to get lost with me in the Boon forests during the winter, he has enough hardware to build a REAL NICE out house so he dont get cold while doing his thing! :uh: :rotfl:
Really, I cant wait to see how they work - flippin rippin!!!
Woodsy :ride:

 

[slow_joe]

That looks like display case hardware.

 

[Tom Dixon]

I once did the same thing. I used 1" 1/2 conveyor belt bolts (yeah, overkill, I know). I drilled a hole in each knob and slid one of those bad boys through. I didn't have a liner so they pinched the tube after a while, but before then holy cow, talk about grip!

 

[INCA]

One reason I raised the question is that if you fill the knobs with screws, the result is that you have essentially rough steel surfaced knobs. Would you then have less grip than a row of screws on the leading edge?

Young Ted

 

[bbarel]

I recall reading in the Muskegon Chronicle about them finding some dead bodies in the forests out that way. I wonder if those tires had something to do with that.

 

[YZMAN400]

That looks like display case hardware.

Could be..I have no idea where that stuff could of come from though :think:


Hey Woodsy. I know it dont show up too well in that picture of the front tire but did you notice another tire leaning against the wall in the background??

Wonder what it is??

Its a 18" Kenda Ice Master ice tire. This one is the one with the extra thick carcas that you dont need a liner in order to use 1" screws. They dont make them anymore. I picked this one up a month ago. New. $50. Gotta love E-bay :cool:

Now the real trick is to run a liner in it anyways and run 1-1/2" screws in it. Those puppy's aint movin at all.

I also have a nearly new K-490 front tire. The holy grail of ice tires.

Sounding like I may be studding up a new set of ice tires soon huh?

 

[YZMAN400]

Man that front tire works awsome. I actually had oversteer today. Whens the last time you had to worry about oversteer outta a snow tire. Too cool. That tire goes wherever you point it. Its almost twitchy. There is very little slide with that. It hooks.

Now I have to fix the back tire. It isn't even close to the traction the front offers.

 

[MWEISSEN]

Don, how was Cedar?

 

[YZMAN400]

Awsome. There was a little bit of quad and sled traffic in the single but with that front tire it wasn'tthat bad at all. Snow depth was managable. I had fun.

 

[woodsy]

Whens the last time you had to worry about oversteer outta a snow tire.
Now I have to fix the back tire. It isn't even close to the traction the front offers.

Sooooo, does it have a tendency to do "donuts" on its own then? :yikes:
Ohhhh ya, that would have been real fun on that tight - bar bangin fluff up at Horsey last weekend!! Varoo - SMACK - varoo - SMAC,SMAC - VAROOOOOOM - SAAAAMMAAACCKKER.. Ouchy Woodsy - that last tree pulled me right off my bike :laugh:
ya best toss some iron on that rear tire BEFORE we do the "owl" Don!! Oh yea, and cut down the bars on Joes CRF while your at it will ya - sheesh, that had to have been like riding a Texas Longhorn!!! Felt sorry for him - well, a little anyway ;)
We missed you Saturday!
Scott