Welding info
- Thread starter 125 rider
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You should never run a stick of any flavor downhill.
It really takes someone who knows what they are doing to show you how to do it. And then practice, practice, practice.....
I will add that you need to have the proper rod and size for the job, and you need to have your machine set for the correct polarity and amperage.
It really takes someone who knows what they are doing to show you how to do it. And then practice, practice, practice.....
I will add that you need to have the proper rod and size for the job, and you need to have your machine set for the correct polarity and amperage.
showtime586
Member
- Mar 28, 2004
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* The low hydrogen rods make a prettier bead. That is why they are used for welds that need a cosmetic appearance. An open root weld is done with a 60 series rod, then finished with a 70 or higher series rod.
* A 7024 used to be called a "Drag rod". It lays a beautiful bead, but it was primarily used for production welds on clean surfaces. Even though the coding indication it is for flat and horizontal welding, I rarely got good beads in anything other that a flat position.
* Vertical welds take practice. Gravity is working against you in this position. It will come with the proper amount of practice..:)
* A 7024 used to be called a "Drag rod". It lays a beautiful bead, but it was primarily used for production welds on clean surfaces. Even though the coding indication it is for flat and horizontal welding, I rarely got good beads in anything other that a flat position.
* Vertical welds take practice. Gravity is working against you in this position. It will come with the proper amount of practice..:)
Dennis Meyers
~SPONSOR~
- Nov 24, 2000
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In regards to auto-darkening helmets, the cheap ones are junk! With that said, the Spedglas brand helmets are incredible. I've been at this welding/fabricating game for 14 years and I spent 4 of those using a spedglas 9000 everyday with out a single failure! :aj: That's MIG, TIG and Stick. I personally purchased a Hawk (Shademaster) brand helmet in the $160.00 range and I get flashed all the time with it, especially trying to TIG around a piece of pipe. So, I'm back to my trusty Jackson with a #12 lens. I guess the point is, you get what you pay for.
A tip I can pass along to you fabricators....
Mig welding can be a hassle sometimes, trying to keep your nozzle cleaned of slag.
I used to use can after can of spatter spray for both nozzle and workpiece.
The stuff is expensive to boot.
A guy turned me on to the best product...Ivory soap and water.
Mix a capful of Ivory in a spray bottle of water and you have a very cheap spatter spray that works wonderfully well.
Even better than high-dollar spatter spray, IMO.
They guy who turned me on to this saved his company about 14k a year by switching.
Mig welding can be a hassle sometimes, trying to keep your nozzle cleaned of slag.
I used to use can after can of spatter spray for both nozzle and workpiece.
The stuff is expensive to boot.
A guy turned me on to the best product...Ivory soap and water.
Mix a capful of Ivory in a spray bottle of water and you have a very cheap spatter spray that works wonderfully well.
Even better than high-dollar spatter spray, IMO.
They guy who turned me on to this saved his company about 14k a year by switching.
Ok, having never welded, but wanting to, actually needing to learn and get a (set up), what would you guys recomend? Arc, mig, gas? Size?
I like the easiest way of doing things with the best results possible.
The work I have is on site (construction) welding columns with 3/8 plate to steel beams. Working off a ladder at 8' to 9' above the ground. Welds don't have to be beautiful for work, but I would like to be able to be able to use the same equipment to make detailed iron rails at my garage.
Voltage is not an issue as I can run it off a generator on the job.
Thanks or any additional replys.
I like the easiest way of doing things with the best results possible.
The work I have is on site (construction) welding columns with 3/8 plate to steel beams. Working off a ladder at 8' to 9' above the ground. Welds don't have to be beautiful for work, but I would like to be able to be able to use the same equipment to make detailed iron rails at my garage.
Voltage is not an issue as I can run it off a generator on the job.
Thanks or any additional replys.
ob1quixote
Member
- Jul 23, 2003
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Since you are a beginner, as I am, I would suggest you let a professional handle that, especially if it is structural welding, which is what it sounds like.
You can get a welder and practice on your gate, fence etc, have some fun and learn a bit, without taking on such a big job, and big liabilities.
Robert
You can get a welder and practice on your gate, fence etc, have some fun and learn a bit, without taking on such a big job, and big liabilities.
Robert
The pieces, ie. beams & columns are structural, code requires the beam & column to be tacked, it's not structural welding. (beam sits on top of column)ob1quixote said:
At $100 to $150 per site visit I think I'd prefer to invest that into a welder (machine) instead of THE welder (person)
A standard mg setup is gonna be a pain in the butt to use working off a ladder, cause the stinger lead is not very long, most are maybe 8' or so.
all welding machine manufacturers make small electric or gas powered machines that have a connection for hooking up a remote mig setup, that is where the small spool of wire is actually in the gun in your hand, much more user freindly. A mig set up is by far the easiest to learn with, I run flux core wire always, except when welding something where a pretty no slag bead is necessary.
heck most of the mig machines have a guide inside the cover to help with the heat range and wire speed until you get used to it
when welding keep the wire or rod, in the middle of the puddle, if you pull away from the puddle you are moving to fast, if the puddle trys to run you are moving too slow, if you get a mig setup grab a can of anti-spatter spray, that will make your life much easier
all welding machine manufacturers make small electric or gas powered machines that have a connection for hooking up a remote mig setup, that is where the small spool of wire is actually in the gun in your hand, much more user freindly. A mig set up is by far the easiest to learn with, I run flux core wire always, except when welding something where a pretty no slag bead is necessary.
heck most of the mig machines have a guide inside the cover to help with the heat range and wire speed until you get used to it
when welding keep the wire or rod, in the middle of the puddle, if you pull away from the puddle you are moving to fast, if the puddle trys to run you are moving too slow, if you get a mig setup grab a can of anti-spatter spray, that will make your life much easier
Dave,
You definately want to get a stick welder (arc). I know everyone says how easy mig is, but trust me, mig is far less reliable when it comes to the integrity of the welds. Espeically using a cheap fluxcore type wire.
Your metal needs to be prepped proper and the rate of feed and heat must be spot-on for the weld to have any sort of good integrity. A stick welder is much more forgiving and will net you a good strong weld even with less than desireable conditions. You can get a far better "looking" weld with a wire feed, but unless you know what you are doing, I'd suggest against it for the sort of thing you will be welding.
And as mentioned, you want something that has a stinger long enough to reach your work. An arc welder can have multiple lengths of lead added as needed. A mig should be used on a bench only.
I would find a Lincoln 220v AC/DC welder (it won't break the bank). For what you are doing, a 6011 5/32" rod should be fine, and easy to run. (learn how to oscilate it...never run any rod downhill)
If you get into more strucural type work, always use a 70 series (ie...7018 1/8") rod.
Get a book and read up on making welds with different type rods. Also read up on mig as well. I know it's been stated that you should keep your wire in the middle of the puddle, but that is bad info.
Not trying to discredit anyone here, just pointing out bad advise. Get a book and read up on how to REALLY weld. Or better yet, have a welder give you an hours worth of OTJT.
You definately want to get a stick welder (arc). I know everyone says how easy mig is, but trust me, mig is far less reliable when it comes to the integrity of the welds. Espeically using a cheap fluxcore type wire.
Your metal needs to be prepped proper and the rate of feed and heat must be spot-on for the weld to have any sort of good integrity. A stick welder is much more forgiving and will net you a good strong weld even with less than desireable conditions. You can get a far better "looking" weld with a wire feed, but unless you know what you are doing, I'd suggest against it for the sort of thing you will be welding.
And as mentioned, you want something that has a stinger long enough to reach your work. An arc welder can have multiple lengths of lead added as needed. A mig should be used on a bench only.
I would find a Lincoln 220v AC/DC welder (it won't break the bank). For what you are doing, a 6011 5/32" rod should be fine, and easy to run. (learn how to oscilate it...never run any rod downhill)
If you get into more strucural type work, always use a 70 series (ie...7018 1/8") rod.
Get a book and read up on making welds with different type rods. Also read up on mig as well. I know it's been stated that you should keep your wire in the middle of the puddle, but that is bad info.
Not trying to discredit anyone here, just pointing out bad advise. Get a book and read up on how to REALLY weld. Or better yet, have a welder give you an hours worth of OTJT.
whyzee, all I can tell ya is everybody's the expert! I am the 36 y/o son of an iron worker, and have been welding since I was atleast 12.
Facts are these
mig, very easy to use, very versitile, and is a great all around machine
Traditional stick, required for heavy metal where deep penetration is required. ( and a 7018 is the easiest rod to use to learn with
and flux core is fine, just like I described earlier, all flux does is shield the weld be it on a stick or in the wire, the gas on a mig set up does the same thing as the flux.
The reason I mentioned the kind of machine I did earlier, is you will likely need both machines, for different jobs.
By the way have you ever seen a beginner try and strike an arc with a stick machine, and then find were he needs to be welding, with a mig set up you simply lay the head were you want it, nod your head to drop your helmet and pull the trigger.
Go to your local bookstore and grab a book on welding, then you will know who here knows what they speak of
Facts are these
mig, very easy to use, very versitile, and is a great all around machine
Traditional stick, required for heavy metal where deep penetration is required. ( and a 7018 is the easiest rod to use to learn with
and flux core is fine, just like I described earlier, all flux does is shield the weld be it on a stick or in the wire, the gas on a mig set up does the same thing as the flux.
The reason I mentioned the kind of machine I did earlier, is you will likely need both machines, for different jobs.
By the way have you ever seen a beginner try and strike an arc with a stick machine, and then find were he needs to be welding, with a mig set up you simply lay the head were you want it, nod your head to drop your helmet and pull the trigger.
Go to your local bookstore and grab a book on welding, then you will know who here knows what they speak of
Dad,
We can qualify ourselves all day long and it won't change facts. However, I am a 44 year old millwright and the son of a millwright and the cousin of many millwrights and ironworkers, and the nephew of many millwrights and ironworkers.....two of my brothers are millwrights and even my wife holds a millwright card...and I have been also welding since I was knee high to a grasshopper...my family also owns a conveyor manufacturing company that does structural steel as well.
I also have certifed many times on stick and mig welders. I havle also ran tens of thousands of welding rods and burnt hundreds of thousands of feet of wire.
All I'm saying is that when you run a wire feed you don't want to simply drag your wire straight through the middle of the puddle, you actually want to oscillate the weld from side-to-side with small arcs, or in small circles so that you are pentrating both pieces of the work. If you are simply dragging your wire and keeping up with the puddle, you are getting bad penetration, I garanteee it.
Argon or CO2 also makes for a much better flux than a fluxcore wire.
Go into any welding or fab shop and see if they are using fluxcore wire. (not)
And mig is absolutely easy to run...so easy that you can have a great looking weld yet it will not be very strong at all. I've seen MANY times where a great looking weld job had cracks in it after a short ride on a truck and vibration opened them up.
And a 7018 is only the easiest rod to run if you are going to weld a flat prepped weld. It is a drag rod which makes it easy to run horizontal, however running a 7018 uphill properly takes alot of practice and is far harder to learn with than a 6011, which I have found to be the easiest, best overall mildsteel rod there is. Try striking an arc after you've burnt half of the 7018 compared to re-striking the 6011.
There is a big difference in REAL welding and what I call "high school metal shop welding".
Dad, I realise you took offense to what I stated, but I only stated it because it was wrong.
Yes, whyzee...do get a book and read up for yourself since we obviously have differing opinions here.
I agree that it will be enlightening. :)
We can qualify ourselves all day long and it won't change facts. However, I am a 44 year old millwright and the son of a millwright and the cousin of many millwrights and ironworkers, and the nephew of many millwrights and ironworkers.....two of my brothers are millwrights and even my wife holds a millwright card...and I have been also welding since I was knee high to a grasshopper...my family also owns a conveyor manufacturing company that does structural steel as well.
I also have certifed many times on stick and mig welders. I havle also ran tens of thousands of welding rods and burnt hundreds of thousands of feet of wire.
All I'm saying is that when you run a wire feed you don't want to simply drag your wire straight through the middle of the puddle, you actually want to oscillate the weld from side-to-side with small arcs, or in small circles so that you are pentrating both pieces of the work. If you are simply dragging your wire and keeping up with the puddle, you are getting bad penetration, I garanteee it.
Argon or CO2 also makes for a much better flux than a fluxcore wire.
Go into any welding or fab shop and see if they are using fluxcore wire. (not)
And mig is absolutely easy to run...so easy that you can have a great looking weld yet it will not be very strong at all. I've seen MANY times where a great looking weld job had cracks in it after a short ride on a truck and vibration opened them up.
And a 7018 is only the easiest rod to run if you are going to weld a flat prepped weld. It is a drag rod which makes it easy to run horizontal, however running a 7018 uphill properly takes alot of practice and is far harder to learn with than a 6011, which I have found to be the easiest, best overall mildsteel rod there is. Try striking an arc after you've burnt half of the 7018 compared to re-striking the 6011.
There is a big difference in REAL welding and what I call "high school metal shop welding".
Dad, I realise you took offense to what I stated, but I only stated it because it was wrong.
Yes, whyzee...do get a book and read up for yourself since we obviously have differing opinions here.
I agree that it will be enlightening. :)
The dude was inquiring about welding as a hobby! not building a bridge!
yep I did take a little offense at your post, having a difference of opinion is one thing, but saying I gave bad advise is a different thing,
For the record I never told him to simply drag the wire!
And you do keep the wire or rod in the middle of the puddle, makes no difference what movement you choose.
Oh, and most shops use gas as a shield because the gas is cheaper than the labor it takes to clean a flux core weld,
I guess only union millwrights can make a REAL weld eh............................
yep I did take a little offense at your post, having a difference of opinion is one thing, but saying I gave bad advise is a different thing,
For the record I never told him to simply drag the wire!
And you do keep the wire or rod in the middle of the puddle, makes no difference what movement you choose.
Oh, and most shops use gas as a shield because the gas is cheaper than the labor it takes to clean a flux core weld,
I guess only union millwrights can make a REAL weld eh............................
This thread had been dead for a couple of months now, and you will notice I was replying to whyzee (Dave) and his inquiry about what we would recommend for the scenario he described.( It thought you were too)
He needs an arc welder and a stinger lead, I don't care how cute the little hand-held wire feed units are. And it was apparent that money was an issue. The units that Miller and others have the can also be used for mig will be far more expensive than what they are worth, for what he's going to use it for.
Actually I would have recommended a 110v box , but he said that volatge wasn't an issue and a 220v is far superior. BTW, I'm completely familiar with what the man wants to do with this welder.
We can argue welding method all you want, but keeping your wire in the middle of the puddle does nothing but "lay" weld in a crack. You need to "weld" not sculpt a pretty bead, which means you have to conscience of penetrating both pieces of the weldment.
Labor to clean up flux core welds? Thats rich. :)
Oh and YES....a union millwright is the only person on earth that can make a REAL weld. (lol)
Lets not even go here, Dad. It's fruitless.
I'm sure you can weld...heck, with practice, you may even be able to make money at it. (grin)
He needs an arc welder and a stinger lead, I don't care how cute the little hand-held wire feed units are. And it was apparent that money was an issue. The units that Miller and others have the can also be used for mig will be far more expensive than what they are worth, for what he's going to use it for.
Actually I would have recommended a 110v box , but he said that volatge wasn't an issue and a 220v is far superior. BTW, I'm completely familiar with what the man wants to do with this welder.
We can argue welding method all you want, but keeping your wire in the middle of the puddle does nothing but "lay" weld in a crack. You need to "weld" not sculpt a pretty bead, which means you have to conscience of penetrating both pieces of the weldment.
Labor to clean up flux core welds? Thats rich. :)
Oh and YES....a union millwright is the only person on earth that can make a REAL weld. (lol)
Lets not even go here, Dad. It's fruitless.
I'm sure you can weld...heck, with practice, you may even be able to make money at it. (grin)
Ol'89r
LIFETIME SPONSOR
- Jan 27, 2000
- 6,958
- 45
125 rider said:
125 rider.
May I suggest that you look around for a welding class that you could take. Either a night school or community college class.
This way you could use their equipment and materials before investing a lot of money on something you may not even use that much.
After the class, you will have a much better idea of what process and equipment you will need for your particular application.
Just my $ .02
Ol'89r
Jaybird said:
Yep I thought I was discussing this with a union know it all...............but If you dont even know the basics of welding You do understand the puddle moves with you right? You do understand that the puddle is where your electrode is right?
no need to answer, those are retorical questions.......
A man can call himself a city drainage engineer, but he is still a ditch digger, Same thing with millwrights..........
I have said enough on this subject, people who read this thread will know who lives in the real world, and who is blowing smoke............ period
wow, let's see... I hijack someone else's thread to get a little more info on the subject. this after doing a search like a good little DRN'er, ... and guess I got a lil more than I was looking for...
I think you both have scared me off from anything hotter than a Suzy Q Home bake light bulb oven, 60w variety.
I think I'll get a book, and read, and read some more. Might even get a book on welding ..... :bang:
Heck with iron rails, maybe I'll go with paper mache or duct tape
I think you both have scared me off from anything hotter than a Suzy Q Home bake light bulb oven, 60w variety.
I think I'll get a book, and read, and read some more. Might even get a book on welding ..... :bang:
Heck with iron rails, maybe I'll go with paper mache or duct tape
Dennis Meyers
~SPONSOR~
- Nov 24, 2000
- 129
- 0
Whyzee,
As far as stick welds being superior to MIG welds, pure BS! :moon: I build ASME code pressure vessels all day long and we don't even have a Stick welder in our building (yes, we X-ray), they are, for almost all occasions, unnecessary. No, I'm not a Millwright, I am currently an ASME certified code welder (carbon and stainless steels) and a former ASTM 488 (Nuclear) and Mil-Std-1595 (aerospace) certified welder (carbon, stainless, nickel and cobalts alloys). I do however agree that a stick welder would be easiest for you to use on the job, but for railing work, it's too messy. If you would like to try out some Stick and TIG, you're welcome to come by my home shop (in Huntersville) and give it a whirl. Depending on the quality of railing work you're doing, I would go with at least a good MIG, I personally use a TIG machine for my ironwork (yes, I am also an Artist-Blacksmith). If your interested in trying it out, and you're not too far away, email me and try before you buy. ;)
Whyzee, I tried to post some of my ironwork pics in my gallery, but I can't upload. It keeps telling me "can't find server". I'll try again l.ater
As far as stick welds being superior to MIG welds, pure BS! :moon: I build ASME code pressure vessels all day long and we don't even have a Stick welder in our building (yes, we X-ray), they are, for almost all occasions, unnecessary. No, I'm not a Millwright, I am currently an ASME certified code welder (carbon and stainless steels) and a former ASTM 488 (Nuclear) and Mil-Std-1595 (aerospace) certified welder (carbon, stainless, nickel and cobalts alloys). I do however agree that a stick welder would be easiest for you to use on the job, but for railing work, it's too messy. If you would like to try out some Stick and TIG, you're welcome to come by my home shop (in Huntersville) and give it a whirl. Depending on the quality of railing work you're doing, I would go with at least a good MIG, I personally use a TIG machine for my ironwork (yes, I am also an Artist-Blacksmith). If your interested in trying it out, and you're not too far away, email me and try before you buy. ;)
Whyzee, I tried to post some of my ironwork pics in my gallery, but I can't upload. It keeps telling me "can't find server". I'll try again l.ater
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Dad, I tried to add some levity to a situation that didn't need to get nasty...but it seems like you want to be crappy so, for the record I have seen guys like you for years( hired and fired many of them) that always talk a 300 yrd drive, yet when they hit the tee they slice it in the woods most every time. (Sheesh man get a friggin' grip...)
Dennis, I respect your welding prowess, but you are totally wrong in this instance. There is nothing but a stick welder that is pratical for the application that whyzee wants to use it for. Perhaps you should read what he posted, OR get out of the shop and see that there other venues that use welding. If you read what I said, you would see that I suggested that "if you dont know what you are doing" that Mig is lesser than a stick weld. Surely you can recognise that mig is easy to lay a pretty bead in a crack that wouldn't hold squat. I didn't say that stick was superior to mig. Actually what I was reffering to was guys like dad who want to do nothing more than lay a pretty bead in the crack.
Dave,
If you are welding baseplates to columns and support members to the top of colums in the field, then a stick welder is all that you will be able to practically use. Sorry for the confusion and crap.
Dennis, I respect your welding prowess, but you are totally wrong in this instance. There is nothing but a stick welder that is pratical for the application that whyzee wants to use it for. Perhaps you should read what he posted, OR get out of the shop and see that there other venues that use welding. If you read what I said, you would see that I suggested that "if you dont know what you are doing" that Mig is lesser than a stick weld. Surely you can recognise that mig is easy to lay a pretty bead in a crack that wouldn't hold squat. I didn't say that stick was superior to mig. Actually what I was reffering to was guys like dad who want to do nothing more than lay a pretty bead in the crack.
Dave,
If you are welding baseplates to columns and support members to the top of colums in the field, then a stick welder is all that you will be able to practically use. Sorry for the confusion and crap.
Dennis Meyers
~SPONSOR~
- Nov 24, 2000
- 129
- 0
Jaybird said:
Seems here you're making a case for stick superiority. Pure rubbish. :bang: I've been out of the shop and all over the place in the welding field, from high production MIG work in factories to scratch start TIG and Stick in the field to high end Nuclear and Aerospace work. I shape and weld metals, that's all I do. From ASME code work to forging iron over my 100 year old anvil. So don't get the idea that I'm some narrow-minded specialist (like union pipewelders).
If you read my post, you'll see that I agree with the suggestion of using a stick welder for his application at work. As far as railing work goes, it depends on how high-end you want the finished product to be. For the type of work I do, I wouldn't even consider wasting my time with a stick welder, that's why I offered to let him try out the stuff in my shop at home.
The stick is far superior to a mig set-up when you are in the field, welding in beams 8-9' in the air. That is my point. A mig should be used in the shop.
He wasn't asking about your type of work.
How many overhead welds do you make with a mig, Dennis?
And you can use a stick on wrought iron just as easy as as mig. Both spatter, and you should use a good spatter spray (ivory soap and water as I have mentioned before) to make clean-up a breeze.
Granted there will be flux to clean up when you use a stick, but that isn't more than a few hits with a brush or a grinder.
Dave, is that what you are talking about when you say "railing" (wrought iron)? If so, you may want to look into using a nickle rod on that.
Ah, another reason to choose a stick over a mig set-up. Easy (and cheap) to change to any rod for any type job.
Of course if you have plenty of money you could always have spools and spools of different type wire laying around.
He wasn't asking about your type of work.
How many overhead welds do you make with a mig, Dennis?
And you can use a stick on wrought iron just as easy as as mig. Both spatter, and you should use a good spatter spray (ivory soap and water as I have mentioned before) to make clean-up a breeze.
Granted there will be flux to clean up when you use a stick, but that isn't more than a few hits with a brush or a grinder.
Dave, is that what you are talking about when you say "railing" (wrought iron)? If so, you may want to look into using a nickle rod on that.
Ah, another reason to choose a stick over a mig set-up. Easy (and cheap) to change to any rod for any type job.
Of course if you have plenty of money you could always have spools and spools of different type wire laying around.
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ob1quixote
Member
- Jul 23, 2003
- 137
- 0
Its getting hot in here, someone turn down the amperage!!
And now for something slightly different! My Miller Sidekick MIG has an electronic wirefeed speed control that has failed, it feeds wire at 100%. The local welding supplier wants a huge amount of money for the control board, more than I spent on the whole machine.
Does anyone know of a discount welder parts house, or of a way to repair the problem "shadetree" style?
Robert
And now for something slightly different! My Miller Sidekick MIG has an electronic wirefeed speed control that has failed, it feeds wire at 100%. The local welding supplier wants a huge amount of money for the control board, more than I spent on the whole machine.
Does anyone know of a discount welder parts house, or of a way to repair the problem "shadetree" style?
Robert
- Aug 2, 2000
- 13,504
- 19
stick welders suck. migs are best.
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