What the heck is up with transmission oil?

Roooster said:

ITell me again, WHY would I want to deviate from the factory spec oil and use ATF? Why is it better? Please provide reference material that states so. We may be among some oil experts here, I have no idea, but I need more than "trust me".

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Not sure if Jeff Fredette is an oil expert, nor do I know if he would say that ATF-Type F is 'better' than what the factory recommends. But he has advocated using it in KDX transmissions for decades. Is 25 ISDE medals good enough of a reference for you?

ellandoh said:

i can afford any oil i so choose to use, im just saying if you dont like the info then you dont need to believe it , just as i dont choose to believe you joined this site yesterday, set up your profile with a 95 and today you have an 05 unless you can in your words "Please provide reference material that states so"

lets see a pic

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I'm not sure what you're getting at, why couldn't I have joined yesterday? And what does a pic of my bike prove? Back to the point, we've got a few here that claim they're oil experts. Ok, I have no idea (maybe I should ask for a picture of them at work, or graduating from oil school :nener: ) , but if so why not at least give some reasons why switching to ATF is a good move. If all that can be said is it probably doesn't hurt anything, then back that up too. Why is it the equal of spec oil?

dirt bike dave said:

Is 25 ISDE medals good enough of a reference for you?

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No. If none of you can provide any reference material as to why ATF is better, and WHY should I, or anyone for that matter, switch, then at least try an articulate a reason to do so, other than "so and so" uses it. Why does the different frictional characteristics of ATF provide better performance than spec oil?

I've read this entire thread and no one yet has answered this simple question. :bang:

then dont use it

you did join yesterday and an hour ago your profile said you had a 95, when i called you on your 5000$ bike you changed your profile. you didnt even read my simple post correctly , i doubt you grasped some of the technical posts on previous pages. like i said earlier...nobody is trying to convince you of anything , use the info you like here and leave whatever you dont at the table

"oil school" LOL :rotfl:

Why?

ellandoh said:

then dont use it

you did join yesterday and an hour ago your profile said you had a 95, when i called you on your 5000$ bike you changed your profile. you didnt even read my simple post correctly , i doubt you grasped some of the technical posts on previous pages. like i said earlier...nobody is trying to convince you of anything , use the info you like here and leave whatever you dont at the table

"oil school" LOL

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Kind of like you editing your post 4 times, first you couldn't even spell "school" (skool?), then you changed it to "school". How could you make such a simple mistake? Clearly, you are hiding something. :laugh:

But, since I'm not grasping anything, and you're such a lemming, why don't you explain it to me then? Why is ATF better?

Why do I doubt you can explain anything?

I think you VASTLY overestimate the desire of the rest of us to explain anything to you.

then dont use it

you did join yesterday and an hour ago your profile said you had a 95, when i called you on your 5000$ bike you changed your profile. you didnt even read my simple post correctly , i doubt you grasped some of the technical posts on previous pages. like i said earlier...nobody is trying to convince you of anything , use the info you like here and leave whatever you dont at the table

"oil school" LOL

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Huh, it obvious you have no idea why some are asserting ATF is "as good" or "better" than spec oil. I'm not surprised. But you seem real worried that I joined yesterday. Figures.

Here's how it works: ATF, while it can be used, is inferior to spec oil for our application. Why? It is the incorrect application, there simply is no reason to use ATF, and one main reason not to use it: It just doesn't have the lubrication properties as spec oil does. In our trannys, there are no synchros that require a special fluid, like ATF, that has special friction and lube qualities that benefit some transmissions and gearboxes using synchros. We have just straight cut gears, and for that application regular, spec oil works best. Yes, there is a wet clutch, but the added friction of ATF is not necessary. Energy conserving oil isn't optimum either, because it's too slippery and could cause clutch slippage under enough load.

Damn, and I didn't even need to graduate from "oil school" (ollandho, it's not "skool") to figure this out.

mtk said:

I think you VASTLY overestimate the desire of the rest of us to explain anything to you.

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Actually, I understand your inability to explain much of anything on this subject. :rotfl:

OK...first off...Roooster, you had to know that someone already had the Rooster name picked here.
As it turns out, you have chosen the name of a highly respected, long standing member of our community. It's no big deal, and I'm certain the mods don't mind, or you wouldn't be allowed to use the screen name you did...BUT, it gives the appearance of you being an imposter.
So, right off the bat you have started out on the wrong foot. But like I said, that's no big deal.

What gets to be a big deal is your logic and questioning of those who obviously have experience in this area. You obviously do not have any credible experience in this field.
MTK stated his credentials, or did you simply disreguard reading anything prior to when you chimed in?
The man has probably forgotten more about the specifics of engine oils than you will ever know.
Lets weigh this out...a person who has obviously had lots of experience with the additives and component packages of engine lubricants, against a person who is using nothing but his own logic and preconceived notions.
Dewd...try not to make yourself look any more ignorant.
Do yourself and us a favor and try to be a bit objective. You aren't NEAR as smart as you think you are.
Your inability to absorb anything anyone is saying here shows me you either have it all figured out, or simply want to show yourself to be an all knowing swami.
I'm thinking you are not a swami.

For anyone to claim that the oil recommended by the mfg is the best fluid that could be used, has simply not investigated the subject past what the manual states.
Exxon/Mobil makes Honda oils in the US.
Do you think for one minute that they are going to provide a licensed private label with a superior product to their own offerings? This is basically the sort of speculation that you are using, so it should be an easy question to answer.

Honda simply touts their oils for profit. Not because they are the best lubricants to use. And anyone who is in the know, will realize that spending twice the money for an oil is silly, when you can find a much better alternative on the shelf for lots less money.

As far as TypeF ATF goes...it was desinged for a transmission that is very similar to a dirt bike tranny.
It is a thin bodied fluid (~10wt) that lens itself well to good, crisp shifting, even in cold climates.
It has plenty of barrier additives and components that protect the gears just as well as any fluid.
It fights thermal breakdown, and has lots of anti-corrosive add.
Another plus is that you can use the same fluid in your suspension, and even in a hydralic clutch.

Those who have a hard time thinking outside the box...or those who refuse to investigate things past their manuals should NOT use TypeF ATF.

Roooster, I see you made an attempt to make us see the light with your logic...but I have a couple questions for you...

It just doesn't have the lubrication properties as spec oil does.

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Tell us exactly how you arrived at this statement? Have some testing to point us to?

We have just straight cut gears, and for that application regular, spec oil works best.

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Again, show us where you got this info. Hyperlinks are fine, feel free to use them.

Energy conserving oil isn't optimum either, because it's too slippery and could cause clutch slippage under enough load.

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Well, you have shown your ability to take myth and use it as fact. You mention that the problem with EC oils is accentuated with increased load...perhaps you can show us where you gained this pearl of information?

Bottom line...when you show up at the corral for a gunfight, be aware that many are going to laugh at you when you whip out your pea-shooter and start flailing it around as if you really had a serious weapon.
:rotfl:

Dear Jaybird,

First, I'm not trying to impersonate anyone. I tried several theme type names and got tired of trying, so I just made it work. Apologies to the original Rooster. I'll see if I can redo it later.

Jaybird said:

What gets to be a big deal is your logic and questioning of those who obviously have experience in this area. You obviously do not have any credible experience in this field.
MTK stated his credentials, or did you simply disreguard reading anything prior to when you chimed in?
The man has probably forgotten more about the specifics of engine oils than you will ever know.
Lets weigh this out...a person who has obviously had lots of experience with the additives and component packages of engine lubricants, against a person who is using nothing but his own logic and preconceived notions.
Dewd...try not to make yourself look any more ignorant.

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So, still no proof of what has been asserted. Just supposed credentials. I've asked for any references, yet no one will supply anything but just asking me to kiss this guys ass because he claims to be an expert. Right...

Jaybird said:

For anyone to claim that the oil recommended by the mfg is the best fluid that could be used, has simply not investigated the subject past what the manual states.
Exxon/Mobil makes Honda oils in the US.
Do you think for one minute that they are going to provide a licensed private label with a superior product to their own offerings? This is basically the sort of speculation that you are using, so it should be an easy question to answer.

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No. And that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying who has proof that the type of oil recommended is inferior to a type of oil that isn't recommended (ATF). So far, nobody has provided anything.

Jaybird said:

Honda simply touts their oils for profit. Not because they are the best lubricants to use. And anyone who is in the know, will realize that spending twice the money for an oil is silly, when you can find a much better alternative on the shelf for lots less money.

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Again, I'm not saying buy brand specific, but type recommended.

Jaybird said:

As far as TypeF ATF goes...it was desinged for a transmission that is very similar to a dirt bike tranny.
It is a thin bodied fluid (~10wt) that lens itself well to good, crisp shifting, even in cold climates.
It has plenty of barrier additives and components that protect the gears just as well as any fluid.
It fights thermal breakdown, and has lots of anti-corrosive add.
Another plus is that you can use the same fluid in your suspension, and even in a hydralic clutch.

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Actually, it was designed for automatic transmissions, which are nothing like a simple, straight cut gear drive. However, again, no one will provide info showing why it's better, as as good. The other applications you mention (suspension fluid, clutch hydraulic fluid) tend to show it's more of a hydraulic fluid than a lubricant.

I've asked for any reference material or tests, no one, including you, has provided jack. But you want me too. Hmmm.

I don't have any. Just like you and others, we're all just speculating.

However, I do know enough to say with a certainty that ATF does not have the lubrication properties as oil. If you don't believe me, try this experiment or "test". Drain the engine oil out of whatever vehicle you drive. Replace with you favorite ATF. Drive it. Keep us posted on your impressions and results. If you refuse to do this, then explain why.

Quote:
We have just straight cut gears, and for that application regular, spec oil works best.

Again, show us where you got this info. Hyperlinks are fine, feel free to use them.

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I'll do you one better. Read your owner's manual and read what the manufacturer recommends. That would be the best evidence of what is best. Then explain to me why ATF is better than spec oil in a gear box that has straight cut gears.

Energy conserving oil isn't optimum either, because it's too slippery and could cause clutch slippage under enough load.

Well, you have shown your ability to take myth and use it as fact. You mention that the problem with EC oils is accentuated with increased load...perhaps you can show us where you gained this pearl of information?

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See previous answer.

If this is pile of b.s. is a "gunfight", all I see are a bunch of ego bruised babies beating their chests and getting offended when challenged to back up their crap. No offense! :ahhh:

Jaybird said:

Exxon/Mobil makes Honda oils in the US.

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do you have documentation of this? i'm not disputing it, i just find it interesting to know who makes what, in all products.

You know what, you're right Roooster. You know it all already.

This topic is like politic's and religion. I doubt either side will sway anyone on the other side to switch camps. As I said earlier; with the normal life span of a dirt bike any oil regularly changed will likely be more than adequate. I still use Bel-Ray 80W because I always have, never had any problems, and am comfortable with it (and don't feel its too expensive). I have friends who swear by ATF and they too haven't had any issues and are comfortable with it.

So, there is room for both opinions. Now; lets move on to who makes the best 2-stroke oil:laugh:

actually it has swayed someone , me , i may want an option in the future, i may want to save money in the future, theres a million possibilities and i may go for it just because i can . options are a good thing if you ask me, in certain conditions my bike shifts kinda hard, and with a very unscientific theory i will say that the atf will lube the tranny sufficiently and its possible it could make shifting less notchy.
a fellow quadbilly friend of mine used to use the "recommended tranny fluid" and had slippage under high torque situations, well i told him of a thread like this that i read, he tried it and hasnt went back since SLIPPAGE GONE , 3 seasons on a raced out 100HP banshee. he goes to the dunes and makes passes down the strip in 4 hour increments........thats abuse :nod:

sorry roooooooster , just another real life experience, with real world data to back it up, on a real clutch. what looks good on paper does not always translate to real life

There's some good info in this thread, thanks to those who have provided it...mtk, Jaybird, etc.

mtk said:

You know what, you're right Roooster. You know it all already.

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And you know it too. If you had anything as proof, you would've posted it by now.

Good day to you sir. I said, GOOD DAY.

Roooster said:

And you know it too. If you had anything as proof, you would've posted it by now.

Good day to you sir. I said, GOOD DAY.

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Yeah, you're right. I would have spent several days scanning pages of reference books on my shelf, building a web page, and them posting it just so I could make YOU happy.

I know I'm right That's good enough for me.