What the heck is up with transmission oil?

[mattb348]

I swear, it can't ever just be friggin simple......... Never fails.

Ok anyways, I did an oil change on both my 2002 KX 250, and my 2002 KX 500.

Heres the deal: I read in the manual that the oiled used for both of them is 10W 30 or 10W40. I know that 10W40 is better in colder weather, or something along those lines.

But what they Don't friggin say is if its supposed to be motor oil, or transmission oil. Is there even a difference?

and why is it that when I look at motor oil, its all like 10w30 or 10w40 etc...... always something W something. But then I go and look at "transmission oil" and its different...... its only 1 number and a W. All I saw was 80W and 85W

So is there even a difference between "transmissions oil" and motor oil? And why is tranny oil called 80W????

What do you guys recommend using? the stupid manual didin't even recommend any brand, it just said 10W30 or 10W40, along with a bunch of gibberish like SE class, SAE, Jaso something, blah blah blah.

WTF does SAE mean? I think both the motor oil AND the tranny oil I looked at were SAE.

Lastly, I ended up buying what the local kawasaki dealer recommended (but they are incredibly stupid there usually, so that worries me), which was "Bel Ray" "gear saver" 80W "motorcycle transmission oil" "made for 2 cycle motorcycles). They said thats what everyone uses, and that it would work in my KX's. They cost $7.00 per quart.

Is this oil a good choice for my bikes? Is bel ray a good brand?

I would GREATLY appreciate it if someone could answer these questions; stuff like this REALLY, REALLY annoys me; I hate not know crap about things like this, I really do!

Thanks guys!

 

[Masterphil]

Dosen't really matter what you use. Search, you'll find days worth of reading on this topic.

 

[JST122]

Mattb348, No worries Belray makes good products and the gear saver 80W is the right transmission oil for your bike. Also Motul, Maxima, Amsoil, Spectro and many of the other major oil companies make 2-stroke specific gear oil that is designed to meet the specific requirements of these bikes, hold up better in extreme temperatures and is specifically designed for machines with separate transmission oil resevoirs.. I unfortunately cannot give you an intelligent explanation of what SAE means so I wont go there. Essentially in warmer temperatures you can run a "thicker" or heavier weight oil because it will thin out at running temp and maintain its viscosity better. In cold weather it is usually recommended to run a "thinner" or lighter weight oil because oil tends to thicken up and loose some of its ability to lubricate in colder temperatures. Dont know if this helps any, but rest assured that the SAE 80W gear oil is the right stuff for the job.

 

[steve.emma]

SAE = society of automotive engineers.
the numbers give the viscosity (thicknes) of the oil.

 

[Chili]

The only thing you ant to be aware of is avoiding an oil with friction modifiers (may cause clutch to slip) Most 10-30 motor oils have these modifiers so if using an automotive oil I always opt for 10-40. Pretty much every bike we've had for the last 5 years has been run on ATF type F.

 

[mattb348]

Why is motor oil 10W40 and 10W30, and the transmission oil is like 80W and 85W?

is 80W equivalent to 10W40 motor oil? or is it like twice as thick or something?

 

[DLHamblin]

Why is motor oil 10W40 and 10W30, and the transmission oil is like 80W and 85W?

is 80W equivalent to 10W40 motor oil? or is it like twice as thick or something?

80W gear (tranny) oil is about like 10W40. If you buy the Bel-Ray in qty from internet you can get it around $4 something per quart (I can't recall what I paid but it was a lot less per quart than buying one at a time at dealer)

 

[BigRedAF]

ATF fluid is an old trick from the 70"s. It is thin and has less drag but don't use it. Is has less shock and load protection and will wear out shafts and bearings at a faster rate. Any good quailty motor oil will be fine. 10/30 is better than 10/40 in cold weather, it flows better. I use Honda 2 stroke trany oil avaiable from any Honda shop. It seems to work just fine and doesn't get dirty as quick as other oils I've used in the past. When an oil holds it's color it is telling me that it is offering more protection. When parts wear they color the oil black.

 

[kshackleton]

ATF fluid is an old trick from the 70"s. It is thin and has less drag but don't use it. Is has less shock and load protection and will wear out shafts and bearings at a faster rate. Any good quailty motor oil will be fine. 10/30 is better than 10/40 in cold weather, it flows better. I use Honda 2 stroke trany oil avaiable from any Honda shop. It seems to work just fine and doesn't get dirty as quick as other oils I've used in the past. When an oil holds it's color it is telling me that it is offering more protection. When parts wear they color the oil black.

I call bull**** on the ATF comments. ATF is fine in automotive transmissions and it is the recommended lube for use in the transfer case of my full-size Bronco....and the transfer case has gear pressures and shock loads that would blow a bike transmission to pieces.....and my Bronco holds up just fine thank-you.

Use ATF type-F, change it every second ride... and have no worries about it.

 

[Rich Rohrich]

ATF fluid is an old trick from the 70"s. It is thin and has less drag but don't use it. Is has less shock and load protection and will wear out shafts and bearings at a faster rate.

Better call Detroit and let them know. They've been doing it wrong for 50 years. :rotfl:

 

[karter55]

Quote: "Why is motor oil 10W40 and 10W30, and the transmission oil is like 80W and 85W"

The 10 in 10W 30 refers to it's ability to flow like a 10 weight oil when cold (when oils are thicker), and like a 30 weight oil when hot (when oils thin out). One thing that you'll notice when using gear oil instead of motor oil is that the transmission and clutch will feel more "sluggish" when you first start up and ride the bike. This is fine, just let it warm up a bit (which is good for everything anyway) and it'll be fine. Also, I'd agree that you need to avoid oils that have friction modifiers in them as well as anything that says high detergent.

Joe

 

[dirt bike dave]

I've used ATF Type F, 10w30 and -40, and 80w and90w gear oil.

With the 90w gear oil my old bike would not shift for about 5 minutes of riding after it was left outside on a freezing night. Other than that, I could not tell a whit of difference between any of 'em.

I change the oil about every 200 miles when running 10w30 or -40, and maybe every 100 miles with ATF-F.

The fact that people succussfully run a wide range of products tells me the typical 2 stroke transmission is not very finicky when it comes to lube.

 

[SpDyKen]

Better call Detroit and let them know. They've been doing it wrong for 50 years. :rotfl:

I'd say the first 25 were pretty good, all in all. Let's just say the last 25 (or so) years haven't been Detroit's "golden age" of engineering. Oh yea, the management hasn't been the greatest, either!

Now, back to our originally scheduled topic of discussion..... ;)

 

[BigRedAF]

kshackleton

Call bull all you want, if the Japs wanted use to use ATF in bike trannys they would say so.

By the way, my wifes Honda Accord uses motor oil in it's auto transmission.

Yes ATF is fine in automotive automatic transmissions, they are desighned to use ATF.

If you like it for oil recommended items I suggest you try some in your Bronco engine and perhaps your front and rear diffs.

Good luck!

 

[mattb348]

kshackleton

Call bull all you want, if the Japs wanted use to use ATF in bike trannys they would say so.

By the way, my wifes Honda Accord uses motor oil in it's auto transmission.

Yes ATF is fine in automotive automatic transmissions, they are desighned to use ATF.

If you like it for oil recommended items I suggest you try some in your Bronco engine and perhaps your front and rear diffs.

Good luck!

I think BigRed has a point. But also, the manual only says 10W30 or 10W40 motor oil; it doesn't even mention gear oil. Heck, it doesn't even tell you to avoid friction modifiers. How stupid is that? LOL.

BTW BigRed, I see that you bike listed by your name is a CR500AF. Is that the service honda bike that is a CR250F frame with a CR 500 engine stuffed in it?

 

[robwbright]

For what it's worth . . .

According to my father in law Ron Brinker (30 years auto trans mechanic):

As a rule, U.S. auto makers make 100,000 mile throw away cars. The japs design their cars to last longer. For instance, last I checked, all Honda car engines except the base civic engine used a forged piston, rod and crank. See if the big three are doing that across the board. My 2.2 liter VTEC 4 cyl can be made to safely run 450hp on the stock crank without modification to the crank. . .

Another for instance. There's a particular part (looks kindof like a coffee can open on both ends) that ALWAYS breaks on certain model U.S. minivan - sometimes at 40,000 miles, sometimes it will make it to 100,000. This part has been used for over a decade with no modification. The U.S. automaker involved actually makes a better version of the part, but they refuse to put the better version in their minivan - they'd rather have the $$ from the service.

These examples run across the board in the big three vs. japs in trannys. The jap stuff is higher quality and you can see it clearly when you open it up.

It is RARE to see a jap car in my father-in-law's shop - maybe 5% at most - and he is known widely to be the guy to go to if you want the tranny fixed right. I worked selling cars for a year and a half at a Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep dealer. When their guys couldn't fix it they called my father in law Ron. . .

Incidentally, last week Ron started in 21st and finished 4th in the World Karting Association WKA/ICC 125 SPRINT 1 at Daytona:
1. DEAN OPPERMAN
2. JOE KOMYATI
3. GARY LONG
4. RON BRINKER
5. TALON CRAFT

2nd day he stalled the motor on the start, was a lap down before getting on the track, and finished two places higher
than he was set on the start grid.

It's a '98 CR125 shifter kart built by Boyesen. . .

 

[john3_16]

Yes ATF is fine in automotive automatic transmissions, they are desighned to use ATF.

You've got that backwards...The automatic transmission was not designed so people could use ATF fluid. Engines and transmissions aren't designed for oils...Oil specs are formulated for engines......

This understanding begs the question....Why was ATF designed for Auto trans ? The answer will tell you it's perfectly o.k. to use in a 2 stroke transmission.

 

[Jaybird]

First of all...the warning folks against "Energy Conserving" oils is big bunch of BS.
Can't blame them since you hear this nonsense everywhere. But, it is not a concern. Find me someone who has trouble with their clutch slippping from using an energy conserving type oil, and I will show you someone whith sacked out clutch springs, previously glazed plates, and notched clutch basket fingers. The oil DID NOT cause their problem.
Funny how most of the folks who make it a point to steer people away from energy conserving oil wouldn't know castor oil from cod liver oil.

Type F ATF is loaded with barrier type lubricant additives. To recommend staying away from it due to it's inability to handle shock loads is...well...it's simply ignorant.
Type F ATF was desinged for a former Ford transsmission that is almost exactly like the transmission and wet clutch found on a motorcycle.

Now, there is a difference between TypeF ATF and Mercon/Dexron type ATF's.
Type F (don't mistake this with other types of ATF) works in a different way than Dexron/Mercon type ATF's do...Type F has a dynamic coefficient of friction that is reduced when the revs are high, which is exactly opposite of how Dexron/Mercon type fluids work.

 

[BigRedAF]

JAYBIRD:
I am not a transmission expert and never claimed to be. Yes there is a difference between Type F and Dextron ATF fluids. I personaly don't know the difference other than GM says to use Dextron and Ford uses Type F. It's my understanding that they are not compatable. I always considered ATF as a type of hydrolic fluid not an oil, perhaps I was wrong. I still have no plans of using it in my bike and simply suggested to a person asking about it to use the recommended oil. I don't feel that I was wrong by suggesting that.

MATTB348:
Yes it is, it's been a great bike so far. I bought it last April and have been very pleased. I won the Arizona Vet Championship on it in the 40+ non pro class this past Oct 23rd. I had planned on Glenn Helen the next weekend but crushed my left inded finger loading up the bike after the Oct 23rd race, bummer. I am going to race the CMC Copperstate Series starting this weekend in the 40+ masters class. The bike has an Eric Gorr modified cylinder and the PC pipe option. It's been a great combo for the tracks in Arizona so far.

 

[kshackleton]

kshackleton

Call bull all you want, if the Japs wanted use to use ATF in bike trannys they would say so.

By the way, my wifes Honda Accord uses motor oil in it's auto transmission.

Yes ATF is fine in automotive automatic transmissions, they are desighned to use ATF.

If you like it for oil recommended items I suggest you try some in your Bronco engine and perhaps your front and rear diffs.

Good luck!

Interesting....ATF is oil. It is designed for use with wet clutches and gears.....and a 2-stroke transmission has what in it?

Transmissions are designed to transmit torque...the ATF is designed around the needs of the transmission....not the other way around.

ATF is not designed for use in an engine....so I would never consider it for use there. Hypoid gear oil is what is designed for use in my diffs....so that is what I use.

I took exception to your point that the ATF will accelerate wear in a 2-stroke bike transmission....and that is simply false. Your diversions are irrelevant.

Also...since you use Honda 2-stroke gear oil in your bike, which is not mentioned in the manual either...sticking with the recommendation of motor oil seems somewhat inconsistent.

Type F is the fluid of choice [for me], I found that with motor oil [10w30], my bike would almost stall when kicking into gear before the engine warmed up, and shifting and clutch engagement seems better now also. Ford recommended type F in their older auto transmissions [earlier than 1980 I believe].

 

[mtk]

JAYBIRD:
I am not a transmission expert and never claimed to be. Yes there is a difference between Type F and Dextron ATF fluids. I personaly don't know the difference other than GM says to use Dextron and Ford uses Type F. It's my understanding that they are not compatable. I always considered ATF as a type of hydrolic fluid not an oil, perhaps I was wrong. I still have no plans of using it in my bike and simply suggested to a person asking about it to use the recommended oil. I don't feel that I was wrong by suggesting that.

The line in bold is the most important one of your entire post.

No offense, but that translates roughly to "I don't know what I'm talking about."

Type F ATF is most definitely oil, as is any other type of ATF product on the market. Type F ATF is also designed for transmissions that use materials very similar to wet clutches found in dirt bikes, not to mention the usual gears and bearings found in any transmission. It isn't mentioned by the Japanese because the category is about 30 years old, give or take a bit. Ford long ago replaced it with the various Mercon categories of ATF lubricants. In other words, it is an obsolete lubricant category and way off their radar screen. As far as bike trannies go, it is about perfect as a lubricant.

As for ATF not being capable of handling the loads, the 6-speed manual transmission in my F350 Power Stroke Diesel (500lb-ft of torque) calls for ATF. I'm ptetty sure those gears see a lot more load any any dirtbike tranny ever will.

My dirt bike all use Type F ATF.

I also worked in the oil testing industry for 13 years so the above opinion isn't one I just pulled out of my ass.

 

[john3_16]

Excellent post MTK...There are so many oil opinions out there that are so far removed from the real truth it isn't funny.


I've used ATF with excellent results...Low drag on the engine resulting in a more free revving engine, and the clutch plated grab so much better with type F ATF...You can really feel the difference.

 

[XRpredator]

I also worked in the oil testing industry for 13 years so the above opinion isn't one I just pulled out of my ass.

but we know what opinions are like . . .




Cowboy hats!

and I'll use whatever the manual tells me to. Those guys who build dirt bikes seem to know what they are talking about.

 

[mtk]

OK, but I've developed my opinions from talking to folks who formulate oils for a living and from my knowledge of additive chemistry, performance specifications, and the like.

I'll bet dollars to donuts that I'm the only guy on this thread who can make that claim. I chose the product because of what I know about it, not because the color matches my CR.

As for those guys who build them knowing what they're talking about, lubricants is one area where the Japanese fall far short. After all, many Japanese motorcycle manuals recommend SE and SF motor oils, which haven't been available in the USA in a decade. Yes, the new category is supposed to outperform the old one, but that isn't always the case.

Even better, ask Toyota how many Avalon engines (I think that was the model) they replaced due to excessive sludge formation inside the engine causing failures. They were maintained properly, using US-spec lubricants, and died an early death as a result.

Most importantly, if you're going to follow the manufacturer recommendation then your first choice will be something in a bottle with the manufacturer's logo on it since they all recommend their in-house lubes over anything else.

Me, I'll stick with Mobil Racing 2T for premix and the cheapest Type F ATF I can buy for the transmissions.

 

[religiously rm]

Heres my 2 cents if i may, 10-30 will not lubricate any better or worse than 10-40 20-50 or straight 70. And I have used straight 70 in a bike a DR-350, no problems either. What that 10-30 stuff means is that the oil is multiweight, it can flow like 10w when its cold for easier starting , and flow like 30w when warmed up. VISCOSITY IS THE RESISTANCE TO FLOW, that is how they measure and rate it, the SAE that is.It does not mean one is a better lubricant than the other. That is where the SJ,SL,SM stuff comes in. That is the quality rating of an oil, how good it is , an SM is better than an SA, there is many factors in determining that which I am not fuuly aware of. As for gear oil ther is a few different types, Ive seen 80w 85-140 whatever. All that counts is that is made for a gearbox. Although too heavy may be a little tough on your clutches, may slip a little. Just look for a good rating (SM) and you be aight. :blah: :blah: :blah: