Whats the point buying a two stroke anymore?

[bimmernate]

So I am a newbie, but I have a question. I was researching some stuff today, being that im in the market, and the bikes in my price range are all two strokes.

I read that this year the govt. is banning two strokes newer than 98 from parks, etc. Well, what the heck, and I have also read on this board that everyone is losing places to ride. Noise being number one. I suppose emissions is another reason. I suppose that I could find private tracks, etc. But I dont have alot of connections in the business, and govt. outdoor riding parks would seem like a good place if all else fails.

Anyway, I cant afford a four stroke right now, and I dont want to get stuck with a bike that I cant ride anywhere...I was planning on taking it up north to the dunes around the great lakes, and im sure those places arent as worried about things as a trail park on the outskirts of a city with houses by it, but I just dont want to buy a bike and have it sit. It sort of saddened me a little, whats going on here?

I read this in one of those 101 projects to do to your bike books.

thanks. :ride:

 

[larosche]

2 strokes are not becoming banned (unless you live in CA where everything is weird). The BEST reason to buy a 2 stroke is reliability.
4 strokes (modern) require big cost rebuilds every year. You can ride a 2 stroke for 4 years without ever changing the rings.
Also you need to keep on top of the valve adjustments (not easy on some bikes like Honda).
If money is the primary issue then stay away from 4 strokes.
RAD DAD

 

[bimmernate]

Oh, so I can still ride them quite easily then around the country besides cali. Hmm you have brightened my outlook, the book should have been more specific. Excellent, I can keep looking for a good bike then, and its good to know about reliability also because this will be a first bike where I should learn the machines first.

 

[Okiewan]

4 strokes (modern) require big cost rebuilds every year.

Sorry, that's BS. as is:

You can ride a 2 stroke for 4 years without ever changing the rings.

I suppose if you race the 4-t every weekend of the year and ride the 2-T about 10 hours a year, you could be right. What does your manual say about top ends? 20 hours? Seriously, this is internet wives-tales spewed by 1) people who don't have a 4-T, 2) People that don't want to buy one and 3) are justifying keeping the 2-T.

IF you ignore maint. and nuke a 4-T, it will cost more than the same situation with a 2-T. This is true. IF you maintain your 4-T (yes, theres more to do, as in checking valve clearences and changing oil more often) it will give you just as much love as a 2-T.

Here's a internet forum tip: When someone says general stuff like that about four strokes, look at what they own. 9 out of 10 times, it will be a 2-stroke owner making comments like that. "I know a friend of a cousin's friend who had a... " or, they just read it somewhere and it sounds good.

All that said, either way you decide to go, it's all good.

 

[jmics]

Two strokes are about as illegal as carburators on cars . They aren't ,they are justextremely difficult to try and keep up with today's emission standard's.

"F you ignore maint. and nuke a 4-T, it will cost more than the same situation with a 2-T. This is true. IF you maintain your 4-T (yes, theres more to do, as in checking valve clearences and changing oil more often) it will give you just as much love as a 2-T."

I wondered about this :think: lets say you had the bike for a few years... 1 trashed four stroke cylinder isn't as much as 1 trashed 2 stroke cylinder and from personal experience the amount of time and energy spent trying to straighten out an expansion chamber let alone having to buy one compared to a complete head for a four stroke

just thinking about my wallet out loud

 

[FruDaddy]

Two strokes are a little lighter and therefore more agile (easier to change directions). Due to the increased number of moving parts and the overall complexity, there are more things to maintain, so the time and cost of maintenance is going to be greater on the 4-stroke. Also, the initial price of a four stroke is a bit higher. Four strokes tend to be louder. Then there is the fact that the thumpers are harder to start when hot(correction necessitated by temporary stupidity) (hot start lever required). Yes, I ride a 2-stroke, if you wanna know why, read this post again. :nod:

 

[Okiewan]

LOL.
My point is made.

A hot start to start a cold bike? One week, no starting. Blip the throttle 2x, pull the choke (opposite of the hot start) 2 kicks, it's running. I'm sure your 2-T starts much easier tho. :nod:
How much time do you have on a 4-T? No, not surfing the web time, actually time.
How much have you spent maintaining a 4-T vs. your 2-T?

 

[FruDaddy]

Oops, typing error.
Yesterday, after two weeks, the starting process was: turn on the gas, pull the choke, kick it twice, turn off the choke, let it warm up while I put on my helmet and gloves.
Nobody has been stupid enough to let me ride their thumper yet, but I hear that they are much easier to ride. I was just providing the reasoning behind my decision.
I am also certain that I will get more than enough wrench time on thumper when my son steps into the league of the big bikes. By then there will likely be no 125's left.
I am not anti- 4t, we all choose to ride what we like. In fact, I believe that I have recommended the thumpers to a few people here (but probably not Honda's, I think they are overrated). It's Rob that hates the thumpers, I just choose to not ride them.

 

[Okiewan]

I just choose to not ride them.

Obviously, no one can argue with that.

Honda's, I think they are overrated

Okay, now you've done it, them's fight'n words! ;)

It's Rob that hates the thumpers

Another guy with lots of different bike/thumper experience that is quick to pass along web fantasy :laugh: .

 

[FruDaddy]

Yep, ride green, ugly color, great bike :cool:, or go blue, poor design (IMO) but great color .:nener:

 

[Okiewan]

Contrary to popular belief, one of my favorite bikes was my 99 KX 250. I wish I still had it.

 

[FruDaddy]

That proves my theory that deep down, everyone has a secret soft spot for the smokers. My secret, I actually like the 4-stroke sound better, they're just a bit too loud. Then again, that's what most think about my street bike.

 

[Okiewan]

That proves my theory that deep down, everyone has a secret soft spot for the smokers.

For sure for those of us that remember when the 2-T was the "New Thing" in dirt bikes... we grew-up riding 2 strokes, we learned how to ride a dirt bike on them. But honestly, the thing I liked most about the KX was the whole package, it had a GREAT Eric Gorr big bore motor and great suspenders (MX-Tech, the first time I ever had suspension dialed-in just for me) along with a TON of other goodies that just made a great bike. EXCEPT those DAMNED side panels that hooked my boots all the time.

My bottom line? I really don't care rather it's 2 or 4, it is afterall a dirt bike. What DOES bother me, is the passing of rumors of massive work and dollars owning 4-T's by people that have no place saying it, as in, they've never owned or maintained one, they just pass along the internet crap they "read or heard somewhere".

 

[robwbright]

For once Okiewan and I are in virtually total agreement in this thread - except for that Rob hates the thumpers thing. It's more like I really like 2 strokes.

For the sake of clarification . . .

I don't hate thumpers. I think they are fascinating technology and at such time as I can afford to pay someone else to do the maintenance, I may well buy one - but I've said that before.

My opinion on the thumpers has softened over the last year. However, my objections were based on the fact and/or allegation that they require more maintenance and that they are more expensive.

In spite of the fact that I am now an attorney, my income has not increased significantly - yet. It takes quite some time from the time you get a client to the time that you get paid - with the exception of retainer fee clients - and only about 25% of ours are that kind. I have a 6 figure debt from law school and college. I have a wife and child and very little extra time.

Thus, assuming that 4 strokes do require more maintenance and are more expensive to maintain, they are not feasible for me. I spent Friday evening working on the bike and I couldn't race on Saturday because I spent $50-70 on other stuff for the bike. Thus, I'm trying to run on a shoestring budget - not a good idea on a 4 stroke if my impression of them is correct.

As to recommending 2 strokes to others, anytime I have seen a person mention money being a problem, I recommend a 2 stroke. Perhaps I'm wrong. I have recommended 4 strokes on occasion.

The 4 friends I have that recently purchased 4 strokes have told me that they aren't really concerned about maintenance or checking valve clearances. I hope that they don't run into a serious problem at some point.

Maybe it's just in this area of the world, but most people around here tend to take that approach to things - and my brother is the worst offender of all. Most here do LESS maintenance than virtually anyone on the board. As such, 4 stroke MX bikes probably aren't a good idea for those people.

Anyway, I don't hate thumpers. Are they easier to ride? Undoubtedly.

However, I do hate the displacement rule. Without it, it wouldn't be feasible to use them for MX racing.

As to whether the 4 stroke design is better, it is an amazing, high tech design. However, get back to me when they figure out a way to make near equal power with equal displacement. Then they will TRULY have a great design.

I suppose I will eventually have to give in to the reality of the rule. ;) 2007 or 2008, I suppose.

 

[robwbright]

And no, I haven't maintained an new 4 stroke, so Okiewan, let me know how much more $$ and time is really required to maintain a 4T 250 vs. a 2T 125.

I have ridden the 4T's. As noted, they are easier to ride. I've said that repeatedly before. Not shifting for the whole track is certainly an advantage.

 

[FruDaddy]

My belief that the 4t's require more time and money for maintenance isn't based as much on what I've read or heard, as the facts that are there. Assuming that all MX bikes require basically the same maintenance, air filter, chain, tires, suspension, carb tuning, oil changes, and the occasional top end. The addition of the cam and valves will create extra work. When it comes time to do a top end, the head must be removed, with the 4t the cam chain must be moved out of the way, on reassembly, the cams must be aligned. Assuming equal skill, the thumper will require more time for a simple top end. Also, there is the time involved in adjusting the valves. More moving parts, also means more parts wearing out, which equates to more parts having to be purchased. And this is where the money comes into play. Also, a larger piston requires more material to manufacture, thus costing the manufacturer more money to make. I haven't actually checked the sizes of all of the bores, but I know the extra 200cc's isn't all stroke.
One thing that bothers me is how so many people seem to think that 4-strokes require no maintenance at all. These are the ones foolish enough to put the YZ450F in the same category as a TTR125.

 

[cr125freak]

A) a two stroke top end can be put in for $100 and 2hours of your time (depending on your skill)
B) VERY fun to ride
C) cheap if you buy them used
D) fast if you know how to ride them
E) Can be made very fast for less money than a 4 stroke
F) Sounds great- lol
G) Smells even better- lol
H) You can participate in fighting the revolution
I) Do i need to continue?

 

[XRpredator]

That proves my theory that deep down, everyone has a secret soft spot for the smokers.

Deep down I have a seething hatred for the ring-ding, smoke belching 2 strokes.

and it don't matter how many words Perry Mason puts in a post, 2-strokes still suck.

 

[larosche]

I stand by my words on the 4 stroke thing. I had a 2001 KTM 200 EXC. Raced it about 20-30 time/year. I never changed the ring and had it for 3 years. I had a KDX200 that lasted 4 years with only 1 ring change.

I then purchased a 2004 Honda CRF250X. I owned the bike for 18 months. It was in the shop for 4 of those months. It ate the starter after 3 months (Honda did cover this cost but it was in the shop for 2 weeks). Then the valves started to go out of adjustments at 11 months. They required 3 more adjustments then went out completely. I had them replaced (all work done at a dealer). 3 rides later the valves went out again. Honda then replaced the head, valves, seats, etc.

My A riding buddy replaces his whole top end (piston, valves, etc) every year. I race a little more than he does.

My 2006 KTM 200XC-W is about 1 year old. Has way too many miles to talk about but I only have to pour gas into that puppy.

Sorry but 4 strokes are not ready for racing Enduros and Hare Scrambles at the rate I ride.
Ed Larosche

 

[cujet]

I ride my 2 stroke bike in Ocala National Forest. There are plenty of 2 strokes still operating there. The rangers do not care one way or another. They do care about proper registration and paperwork, USFS spark arrestor, and that you pay for the day you are there.

Chris

 

[bimmernate]

I have learned alot from this thread, its good it has taken off. I am a little bit worried about the continuing legality of a two stroke. You see, I have a cottage up by Silver Lake MI and that will be my primary place of riding, plus some dirt tracks as I find them. Problem is, what if those places such as Silver Lake start outlawing 2Strokes? Im left with a bike that I cant ride anywhere, which is my overall theme of asking the original question. I am concerned that may be the case, in places other than CA. Any advice? A good used 250 or somthing is all I can afford (2 stroke obviously)...

thanks again.

 

[cujet]

I never base a decision on a "what if".

As far as I can tell, you will be using this as a play bike. Obviously, the more powerful (twice the size) 4 strokes are winning a lot of the races. So, to be competitive, a 4 stroke might be the way to go. For a play bike, 2 strokes are awesome.

Not sure I would base my purchase on the risk of tracks changing the rules. 4 stroke displacement rules are changing in some forms of racing right now. Also, 4 stroke noise levels are generally higher and it is my opinion that the 4 stroke noise carries further. Not a good thing when riding at the local "pit".

Then there is that wonderful, incomparable feel of a super light weight, powerful 2 stroke:) but we won't go there in this discussion.

Chris

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

I wouldn't worry about 2 strokes being banned any time soon here in Michigan and especially at the dunes. The primary concern at the dunes for quite a few years has been noise levels and 2 strokes are generally easier to get quiet than the mx 4 strokes (IMO). The vast majority of bikes that you see on the trails around here are still 2 strokes and the CCC is well aware of that and would fight any initiatives to ban them. I just bought a brand new 2 stroke in may and have no concerns at all that they will be going away any time soon.

 

[FruDaddy]

A good used 250 or somthing is all I can afford (2 stroke obviously)...

Then it's what you should go after, better riding than wishing.

 

[AJ Waggoner]

Certainly for riding Michigan's Silver lake dunes .
your first idea is fine.

a good used 2 stroke 250 would be great for there, both in performance and price/ value

as far as worrying about the 2 stroke future , thats very over exaggerated ,
certainly for where you plan to ride.
there is absolutely no issue with riding a 2 stroke in michigan now, nor in the near future.
anything can happen down the road, but thats far enough in the future that you may be in the market for ten bikes between now and then?


the "banning of all 2 strokes" , even in cali, is over blown on the internet rumor mill..

you can buy a brand new 06 YZ250 or CR250R and red sticker it to ride in the cali OHRV riding areas.
yes you are limited to a red sticker , instead of a green sticker, and it limits you from riding in certain times
( mostly the hottest part of the summer when most riders are avoiding riding anyway from the heat.)

Also if you buy a 2002 Cr/YZ/RM/KX 2 stroke, it is green sticker elgible in cali..
so if your looking at used bikes even the cali red sticker rule would not effect you at all unless you were dead set on buying a 2003 or 04 instead of an 02 (most bikes changed very little those years anyway)

My point being that your worries and fears , would not even be realized in Cali which has by far the most stringent regulations..

:::::::rant on::::::::
as for my personal rant in this thread, lets all please recognize that emiissions are not the reason for the decline of 2 strokes.
If you think so, please test a modern 4 stroke exhaust, against the bike class it is made to compete with, compare apples to apples, and get back to me.
Twice the displacement..with jetting and cam tuning to optimize performance and get every once of power out of the engine..
does NOT generally make a much cleaner burning machine?

both platforms are great bikes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
with distinct advantages and disadvantages.

but please lets not buy into the pablum offered up as an excuse for the manufactuers to sell you a higher priced bike, with higher priced parts.With similar maintenance schedules.Your trade in value is often less..
The manufactuers make more money all the away around.
This is all about the benjamins,not saving the enviroment.

It may indeed be a better bike for many..
but you cant ignore the fact that those huge R&D dollars could have been thrown at the current 2 strokes and with all the Ti componentry and all the trick engineering,
some amazing bikes be put out as well?
Honda years ago, once had a 2 stroke Cali carb/ emmision compliant engine designed around pre detonation principles.. very artsy stuff.
It worked very well and they won some big dez races with it.. patented it and moth-balled it.

The current crop of diesel bikes is awesome, just dont think they couldnt have been 2 strokes that ran cleaner (than the amped out 4 stroke) and were better (lighter) and perhaps even torquer with availible technology.

::rant off::