touchy subjuct
- Thread starter FBJ913
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FBJ913 said:
If you can, try them both on and see which one feels the most comfortable. The most important aspect of knee braces is that they fit properly and that you wear them. A brace that is uncomfortable will eventually spend more time in your gear bag than on your leg.
That said, first figure out if you actually NEED braces. I have 2 bad knees with 8 surgeries between them. I don't wear them because I know that I don't need them for normal riding. Most knee injuries are the result of a crash or bad riding technique (hooking a toe in turn). A healthy knee joint can withstand a fair amount of twisting and turning before serious injury will happen. A hip socket or femur will not. Braces tend to stiffen the knee so much that injuries to the hip, ankle and/or femur often result. A broken femur can be far more devastating than a twisted knee. The average rider or novice racer probably doesn't need braces. Most will be fine with some good impact protection like that provided by knee/shin guards.
Here we go again. The force required to break the biggest, strongest bone in the human body; instead transferred to the knee will do a lot more than twist it, it will destroy it. Even so, recovery from a bone is typically WAY better than a grenaded knee.
Seriously Radrick, there are some, let's say "suspect" comments in your post. Specifically:
You say:
Then contridict yourself with this...
I assume the pro's have their technique down, yet they all wear braces and the majority, Asterisk.
And frankly, someone who's blown their knees up several times probably isn't the one I'd look to for knee protection advise :laugh:
Story; Average/above average MX'er (Thump), crashes on a 70' table. Wads it hard. Knee pain. Pulls the gear off, broken Asterisk Cell. Broke the Carbon Fiber frame. All he ended-up with was bruises (albeit bad ones), but no knee damage. Didn't break his leg, didn't blow-up his knee. THAT is a win-win deal.
As for me, there is NO WAY I'll ride without my braces.
Read This: http://www.dirtrider.net/forums3/showthread.php?t=76156
Seriously Radrick, there are some, let's say "suspect" comments in your post. Specifically:
You say:
Then contridict yourself with this...
I assume the pro's have their technique down, yet they all wear braces and the majority, Asterisk.
And frankly, someone who's blown their knees up several times probably isn't the one I'd look to for knee protection advise :laugh:
Story; Average/above average MX'er (Thump), crashes on a 70' table. Wads it hard. Knee pain. Pulls the gear off, broken Asterisk Cell. Broke the Carbon Fiber frame. All he ended-up with was bruises (albeit bad ones), but no knee damage. Didn't break his leg, didn't blow-up his knee. THAT is a win-win deal.
As for me, there is NO WAY I'll ride without my braces.
Read This: http://www.dirtrider.net/forums3/showthread.php?t=76156
Most often, the force required to break a femur will result in a compound instead of simple fracture. The femur has no give other than bone elasticity, which declines as one gets older. The knee can absorb more twist than a single bone. By eliminating the knee's ability to twist with the use of braces, the force is then transferred directly to the femur and hip joint. When I started riding back in the 70s a broken femur was incredibly rare in this sport. Since the advent of knee braces it has become more common (along with hip dysplacia) and that has nothing to do with the increase in popularity of dirt bikes.Okie said:
When you become an orthopaedic surgeon, let me know. Until then, I've spent enough time with them to listen when they speak. I have several that ride and advise against braces for all but the pro level riders or those who need to protect a prior injury. Few will recommend brace use to someone with no prior injury who is a casual rider/racer.
Not all of them do. Like many things in our sport, what works for a pro racer is not always the best thing for the casual rider or racer. The speeds the pros ride at almost demand the ultimate in protection. Dabbing a toe at those speeds can do a lot more damage than what the same dab by a C class rider will do. Unfortunately, too many riders want to emulate what they see the pros using/wearing with little thought to whether they need it or can use it properly.
The only dirt bike-related knee injury was a torn meniscus I suffered in 2002. The rest were as a result of work injuries when I was an avionics installer (blew my ACL out working inside a plane), and injuries suffered in MTB crashes or in the course of my other job as a street bike rider/racer/test rider. I was a Cti customer as far back as 1985 when few outside of professional sports knew who they were. I wore my custom made brace for many years, but never while on the bike. The knee healed and it rarely gives me any problems any more.
If anecdotal evidence had real value there'd be little need to do actual clinical studies or testing of many products. Just like helmets and other safety gear, no piece of equipment can protect in any and every situation. The manufacturers say as much on their labels. Wearing something as complex as a knee brace when your riding situation doesn't require it is wrong headed, IMO.
You obviously made an informed decision for yourself based on your own criteria. The OP said nothing about the kind of riding he does, what kind of bike he has, where he rides, or his skill level. With such little info I made a reasoned response based on my own experience on the subject. He can choose to discard it or not. I would never characterize your experience as "suspect" even if I didn't agree with it. It's as valid to you as mine is to me. The challenge in a question such as this is to get as much info as possible, figure out which is relevant to your own situation, and make a decision accordingly. There's no point in us arguing over who has the more relevant info. It's all relative.
Oh, BTW, the femur is the biggest bone in the human body, but the strongest is the calcaneus.
RADRick said:
Do you have some sort of hard data to support that claim, or is this just the usual moto-journalist half-assed SWAG we've all grown so fond of over the years?
Please provide the clinical studies you've used to form your opinion. I assume your position is not anecdotal?
How is it you've come to the conclusion that the braces would not have helped avoid those injuries?
Makes no difference. The same example given above (Thump) did in fact blow-up his knee pulling off the track (prior to wearing braces). As you are surely aware, serious damage can happen just stepping off a curb.
In addition to my own anecdotal observations from almost 40 years of riding, my doctors at the Kerlan-Jobe Clinic in Los Angeles (one of the most prestigious sports medicine clinics in the country) have expressed to me of having seen an increase in such incidents. I don't know what kind of "SWAG" you're used to, but you haven't gotten it from me. Why do you hang out in a forum run by a magazine and industry you obviously have such disdain for? :coocoo:Rich Rohrich said:
Point number 1... this forum is not run by a magazine or industry. Hopefully all of your conclusions are jumped on so qucikly and without research.
I, as well as Rich also rode in the 70's. Me? 1973 was year one. Maybe, just maybe, the jumps are bigger, the tracks more technical, the speeds much greater... there are more broken necks, not to mention every bone in the body these days. I'm very aware of the differences. It's not knee braces. Just off the top of my head, I'm thinking there have been more broken necks than femurs in the pro ranks this year. Who in the pros suffered from a femur so far this year? At the speeds those guys go, if anyone will generate enough force to break that bone, it's those guys. Name one that doesn't wear braces. Oh yeah. Pastrana, his knees are famous.
Oh yeah, my cousin is a Ortho.. he says wear 'em lol.
I, as well as Rich also rode in the 70's. Me? 1973 was year one. Maybe, just maybe, the jumps are bigger, the tracks more technical, the speeds much greater... there are more broken necks, not to mention every bone in the body these days. I'm very aware of the differences. It's not knee braces. Just off the top of my head, I'm thinking there have been more broken necks than femurs in the pro ranks this year. Who in the pros suffered from a femur so far this year? At the speeds those guys go, if anyone will generate enough force to break that bone, it's those guys. Name one that doesn't wear braces. Oh yeah. Pastrana, his knees are famous.
Oh yeah, my cousin is a Ortho.. he says wear 'em lol.
Don't put words in my mouth. I never cited any "clinical studies" as the basis for my opinions. I clearly said both our opinions were anecdotal in nature and that the reader had the onus to figure out what was relevant and useful based on their own criteria. Personally, I don't feel they add much to my style of riding and can't make a blanket recommendation of them to just anyone. You obviously feel differently, which is fine, but like I said, does nothing to diminish the validity of my perspective.Okie said:
Well, I guess if one could wear braces during all activities, they might have helped. Unfortunately, they aren't practical to be worn to work or in all riding situations (they wouldn't fit under my Vanson race leathers). The street motorcycle mishaps that injured my knees were unexpected. One was a crash of a test bike at an event, the other a dab necessitated by an oil slick in a turn. Braces might have helped in both instances, I don't know, but without a commitment to wearing them all the time, I don't see how they would have been a factor for me.
True, so would you recommend wearing braces at all times? I don't think so. The link you posted was to an event that occurred during a race. The protection given the rider in that instance isn't even the main point of a knee brace, which is to prevent hyper-extension and over-rotation of the knee joint. The impact damage protection provided by knee braces is a secondary benefit. Nevertheless, omeone riding at that level might want to give serious consideration to knee brace use, but without that info from the original poster, I just don't see the wisdom in recommending them to any and every rider without qualification. If you want to take me to task for that, so be it. :fft:
No, actually this is what you said.
Wrong again. You really shouldn't jump to conclusions, as a freelance writer, that can't be a good thing. He's Joe Blow average practice riding.
The rest of the last post? Not worth replying to. Seriously.. you have an opinion based on your experiences. I have mine. The only real difference? You've got crap for knees, I only had to nuke one to figure it out.
Excuse me, I should have said related to. Are you always this nit-picky?Okie said:
Again, you are trying to relate what is prudent for a top level pro rider as being relevant for ANY rider. That just isn't so. I see guys who are and will always be intermediate level trail riders wearing knee braces. Long before any chance for a knee injury ever crosses their path, they are suffering from fatigue, movement restriction and elevated temperatures from their braces. Those affects are present all during their rides regardless of the risk of knee injury being high, low or non-existent. A recommendation is only as good as the criteria it's based on. I would rather see a rider spend $500 on a riding school than braces they probably don't need for the average trail ride or an occasional track day. That's money that will definitely improve their riding skills and reduce the chance of injury. Braces don't do anything to prevent a crash and can actually increase the chance as there is documented evidence that some protective equipment use fosters a false sense of security that leads to greater risk taking.
Well, since he knows you and your riding situation, I'd listen to him. :rotfl:
Oh yeah, this is the forum that you need to hawk for some work:
Dirt Rider Magazine's Forum
Dirt Rider Magazine's Forum
Picky? This forum, has NOTHING to do with the Magazine. I OWN IT. Primemedia has NOTHING to do with this site. DRN, LLC owns this site/forum, I own DRN, LLC.. We are not on Dirt Rider Mag's payroll. Let's see how else I can say it....
This site is 100% NOT Dirt Rider Magazine.
This site was in fact, online before dirtrider.com.
or you :rotfl: ?
I close this silly debate quoting myself:
I meant that anecdotal evidence has little value in bolstering absolute positions. Your experience is only relative to your situation, as is mine. It can be used to predict an outcome of a similar rider in a similar situation, but it can't be used to predict the outcome for all riders.
My bad. It read like he was in a race or seriously practicing for one. Again, if those are the kind of risks he's taking, then more protective gear, not less, is probably warranted. How is that relative to the OP?
Like I said (and you've ignored), my only dirt bike-related knee injury was a minor one. Would braces have prevented it? Maybe, maybe not. If I were still actively racing, I would probably wear braces, but even then I wouldn't feel compelled to wear them every time I ride, just every time I raced. Your mileage may vary. :cool:
Dude, you've already said this:
Simple. Ride without knee support and you are begging to end-up a gimp. In the woods, just putting around, put a foot down, boom. Get a foot caught in a rut on the track, boom. Flat land a jump, HE (boom). Wanna risk it, go for it.
Are we done now?
Basically, making crap of your own posts.
Simple. Ride without knee support and you are begging to end-up a gimp. In the woods, just putting around, put a foot down, boom. Get a foot caught in a rut on the track, boom. Flat land a jump, HE (boom). Wanna risk it, go for it.
Are we done now?
RADRick said:
Thanks for proving my point Mr. Moto-"Journalist". ;)
Wow, I guess I'm the first to make that mistake, huh? You had to have known the potential for confusion with the print magazine when you registered the domain name. Maybe you shouldn't be so sensitive about it. :nener:Okie said:
Look, I don't know why you seem so pissed off. I merely tried to engage in the debate and provide a different POV. If that's not what you want for your website, then why allow just anyone to register and post? Just fill the place with your singular viewpoint on any subject and avoid any consternation. If you don't want me here just say so and I'll go quietly into that good night. I have enough negativity in my life. Sorry I got your knickers in a twist. :)
You assume that everyone that rides does those things. I ride with people who never do most of those things and they're every bit the dirt biker that I am. I don't know why you and Rich have a hard-on for motojournalists, but that's your prerogative. It's your site so I'll just go. Buh-bye. :blah:Okie said:
Who's pissed?
You post anecdotal.
I post anecdotal.
You say anecdotal is crap.
I say you have nothing but anecdotal.
You say slow guys should wear them.
You say fast guys should wear them.
I assume there is someone in between that you think shouldn't wear them.
The OP has no idea if he should wear braces let alone which brand.
So what's new? It's the net.
You post anecdotal.
I post anecdotal.
You say anecdotal is crap.
I say you have nothing but anecdotal.
You say slow guys should wear them.
You say fast guys should wear them.
I assume there is someone in between that you think shouldn't wear them.
The OP has no idea if he should wear braces let alone which brand.
So what's new? It's the net.
RADRick said:
Are you freakin serious? Woods guys never put a foot down?
MX'ers never get a toe in a rut?
No one flat lands?
You REALLY need to focus on your street bike/harley stuff bro.
I don't have a hard-on for MJ's ... I don't like people spewing crap and then wiggling their way out of it. I don't care what your profession is.
Ol' FBJ913 had no idea how touchy a subject it is!
Look, it's really simple.
THERE IS NO DEFINITIVE RESEARCH that is pro or con with regard to knee braces. It's ALL about experience. It's odd that the folks that say "NO" are the ones saying "My knees are crap and my ortho says don't wear them". Think about it. Make your own call.
Look, it's really simple.
THERE IS NO DEFINITIVE RESEARCH that is pro or con with regard to knee braces. It's ALL about experience. It's odd that the folks that say "NO" are the ones saying "My knees are crap and my ortho says don't wear them". Think about it. Make your own call.
Who's pissed?
You and Rich seem to be attacking me for what I do for a living and for msitaking the relationship of your website.
You post anecdotal.
I post anecdotal.
True enough. The difference is you think your anecdotals are universally relevant. I'm not that egotistical.
You say anecdotal is crap.
I say you have nothing but anecdotal.
As do you.
You say slow guys should wear them.
I never said that.
You say fast guys should wear them.
I say it depends, but generally, yes, especially if they have a prior knee injury. The OP made no distinction, though.
I assume there is someone in between that you think shouldn't wear them.
Me! :laugh:
The OP has no idea if he should wear braces let alone which brand.
He might have a better idea of whether he needs them, though. And isn't that the point of asking? To get feedback from different sources in order to make a decision?
So what's new? It's the net.[/QUOTE]
Of all the stuff I've posted in here lately, this is the first to get any real response. Sorry if I stepped on your toes.
You and Rich seem to be attacking me for what I do for a living and for msitaking the relationship of your website.
You post anecdotal.
I post anecdotal.
True enough. The difference is you think your anecdotals are universally relevant. I'm not that egotistical.
You say anecdotal is crap.
I say you have nothing but anecdotal.
As do you.
You say slow guys should wear them.
I never said that.
You say fast guys should wear them.
I say it depends, but generally, yes, especially if they have a prior knee injury. The OP made no distinction, though.
I assume there is someone in between that you think shouldn't wear them.
Me! :laugh:
The OP has no idea if he should wear braces let alone which brand.
He might have a better idea of whether he needs them, though. And isn't that the point of asking? To get feedback from different sources in order to make a decision?
So what's new? It's the net.[/QUOTE]
Of all the stuff I've posted in here lately, this is the first to get any real response. Sorry if I stepped on your toes.
Show me where I presented anything as other than my opinion or personal experience.Rich Rohrich said:
Running for cover? I've spent the past hour rebutting your and Okie's thinly-veiled attempts to discredit me for doing nothing more than expressing an opinion on a public message board. Judging from your tag line, you have no use for people who do what I do for a living. Good for you. :nener:
