touchy subjuct

[Okiewan]

Damn, I thought you were leaving? LOL!!!!
You can't help yourself can ya?

You're back peddling bro. Just give it up. Your first post came across as fact... that is what got the replies.
Now, I don't make my living typing, so I'm done. You are free to reply to yourself :)

 

[Rich Rohrich]

You and Rich seem to be attacking me for what I do for a living and for msitaking the relationship of your website.

You seem to enjoy trotting out I'm a journalist", so it seems reasonable for there to be an expectation of accuracy when you present something as a fact, which you clearly were trying to do, intermixed with your opinions. Questioning "facts" when there is clearly nothing to support them is standard practice here and has been for a LONG time.

The idea that you can't get a SIMPLE well known "fact" about there being no relationship between this site and DR mag just makes one question your overall conformity to fact or any sort of truth.

Being a "journalist" I would think you would be concerned about this as well, but as we've seen so many times in the motorcycle journalism business accuracy is OPTIONAL more times than not.

 

[RADRick]

Are you freakin serious? Woods guys never put a foot down?
MX'ers never get a toe in a rut?
No one flat lands?

Maybe if you stopped to read instead of react, you might get what I'm saying. Not everyone rides woods. Not everyone rides MX tracks. Not everyone gets big air. I know a lot of riders who don't do any of those things and are still very good riders. The risk to them doesn't warrant the need for braces. I do all those things, but I still don't feel the need to wear them, either. I make an informed decision based upon my own needs and desires.

You REALLY need to focus on your street bike/harley stuff bro.

Is that supposed to be an insult, bro?

I don't have a hard-on for MJ's ... I don't like people spewing crap and then wiggling their way out of it. I don't care what your profession is.

I didn't spew anything and I didn't wiggle out of anything. I clearly said my experience was my basis, why I believe what I do, and why I think each rider has to decide for themselves. I've never said differently. I guess if you just want a bunch of mindless sheep to visit the site who will accept anything you and your band of merry men have to say as Gospel, I'm in the wrong place. The funny thing is that we didn't disagree on the subject, we disagreed on the application. So you and Rich are now trying to assasinate my character on the basis of what I do for a living. How sad.

 

[RADRick]

You seem to enjoy trotting out I'm a journalist", so it seems reasonable for there to be an expectation of accuracy when you present something as a fact, which you clearly were trying to do, intermixed with your opinions. Questioning "facts" when there is clearly nothing to support them is standard practice here and has been for a LONG time.

The idea that you can't get a SIMPLE well known "fact" about there being no relationship between this site and DR mag just makes one question your overall conformity to fact or any sort of truth.

Being a "journalist" I would think you would be concerned about this as well, but as we've seen so many times in the motorcycle journalism business accuracy is OPTIONAL more times than not.

Man, are you really basing your whole opinion of me on the fact that I didn't do a WHOIS search on the domain name prior to posting? WTF does that have to do with anything? I'm sure many have/will make the same mistake. I'm still waiting for you to show me anything I presented as undeniable "FACT." Was there a JAMA article I cited that I don't remember? Did I quote some doctor on the subject? I mentioned my doctors, but only as it related to me. As for the motojournalist aspect, YOU brought it into the discussion, not me, when you tried to beat me with it. Being a motojournalist makes me no better than anyone else, but it does sometimes give me more insight into a subject than the average person if for no other reason that the amount of time I'm able to spend involved in it and the level of contact I have with other riders. Regardless, this has gone beyond pointless and I'm done. If you want to keep sucker-punching the motojournalist, go right ahead.

 

[Rich Rohrich]

Show me where I presented anything as other than my opinion or personal experience.

Since the advent of knee braces it has become more common (along with hip dysplacia) and that has nothing to do with the increase in popularity of dirt bikes.

Braces tend to stiffen the knee so much that injuries to the hip, ankle and/or femur often result.

Few will recommend brace use to someone with no prior injury who is a casual rider/racer.

There are more , but I'm sure you get the drift.

. So you and Rich are now trying to assasinate my character on the basis of what I do for a living. How sad.

I could care less about your character, but I do care about information that is presented as FACT out here. When someone chooses to play the "I'm a journalist" card, or the other "I'm an insider so I must be right" nonsense, poorly researched information will tend to get pointed out even sooner.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and despite what you think it IS welcomed here, but if you want to toss facts to support those opinions, you damn sure better be able to back them up, or at the very least grow a thicker skin. ;)

 

[RADRick]

Damn, I thought you were leaving? LOL!!!!
You can't help yourself can ya?

You're back peddling bro. Just give it up. Your first post came across as fact... that is what got the replies.
Now, I don't make my living typing, so I'm done. You are free to reply to yourself :)

Yeah, you're right. Go ahead and delete my member account. You win.

 

[mxwannabe]

lol great read, but man what a thread hijack lol. I think all
FBJ913 wanted was a review from somebody who has used both knee braces.

But i think the aruging is great :aj:

 

[Rich Rohrich]

Being a motojournalist makes me no better than anyone else, but it does sometimes give me more insight into a subject than the average person if for no other reason that the amount of time I'm able to spend involved in it and the level of contact I have with other riders.

I may be biased, opinionated, or just an out and jerk, but from where I'm standing it sure looks like you moto-journalist type guys are all the same, and have an interesting take on what you bring to a discussion.

:rotfl: No wonder most magazines SUCK SO BAD these days. :rotfl:

 

[Okiewan]

Hopefully, someone who has found it interesting enough (LOL) and has had both braces will reply.

 

[RADRick]

Do you have some sort of hard data to support that claim, or is this just the usual moto-journalist half-assed SWAG we've all grown so fond of over the years?

Before I go (or get booted) I just wanted to point out that the above, taken from the 6th post in this thread, was the first mention of my being a motojournalist and that it did not come from me. It's obvious there's a bias in here. Hasta la vista. :nener:

 

[Okiewan]

Booted? no way, that's the most fun I've had in a while. Feel free to post opinion as fact any time. Bro.

 

[Rich Rohrich]

Before I go (or get booted) I just wanted to point out that the above, taken from the 6th post in this thread, was the first mention of my being a motojournalist and that it did not come from me. It's obvious there's a bias in here. Hasta la vista. :nener:

You've trotted it out in the past as well. That's how I knew. ;)

We do agree on one thing though, I have a HUGE bias against people who present bad information out here, "journalist" or not.

 

[oldguy]

Wow, I guess I'm the first to make that mistake, huh? You had to have known the potential for confusion with the print magazine when you registered the domain name. Maybe you shouldn't be so sensitive about it. :nener:

:)

Ahh Rich what is that quote- another beautiful theory beaten to death by a gang of ruthless facts..."

 

[oldguy]

Maybe if you stopped to read instead of react, you might get what I'm saying. Not everyone rides woods. Not everyone rides MX tracks. Not everyone gets big air. I know a lot of riders who don't do any of those things and are still very good riders. The risk to them doesn't warrant the need for braces. I do all those things, but I still don't feel the need to wear them, either. I make an informed decision based upon my own needs and desires.
.

My riding has ended because I over jumped and flatlanded a couple years back. Before you assume I am a better rider I am truly a C class rider who was out just for fun. Altho I have always insisted my son wear his Asterisks I just didn't feel the need because I never jumped or really went fast.
This one time cost me a severred ACL, torn miniscus, fractured femur (1 inch above knee) and fractured Tibia (1 inch below the knee). There was no twisting involved and do I know for a fact that braces would have left me uninjured? No I cannot prove it but I believe (as does my Ortho) that the damage would have been far less severe.
I just happened to be using one of my son's Asterisks when I had my first appointment with the ortho surgeon and he took it for a couple days to take a real close look. His conclusion- the brace was something he would recommend for riders- as well as skiers (another sport I love).
BTW prior to my injury my knee was in great shape and strong .

 

[RADRick]

Just one source I found. Notice the underlined passages. Unfortunately, most of the research done on braces is in stick and ball sports, not motorcycling. Joint fatigue is an obvious concern as well as constriction of the blood supply.

The Use of Knee Braces, Part 1
Prophylactic Knee Braces in Contact Sports
Soheil Najibi, MD, PhD* and John P. Albright, MD,
From the * Henry Ford Hospital, Detroit, Michigan, and the University of Iowa, Iowa City, Iowa

Address correspondence to John P. Albright, MD, University of Iowa Hospitals & Clinics, Department of Orthopaedic Surgery, 01013 John Pappajohn Pavilion, 200 Hawkins Drive, Iowa City, IA 52242-1088 (e-mail: john-albright@uiowa.edu).


Surrogate knee model biomechanical studies have indicated that off-the-shelf braces provide 20% to 30% greater resistance to a lateral blow when the knee is in full extension. Custom functional braces doubled the protective effects and proved effective with the knee in some flexion. Although functional performance studies are not consistent, preventive knee braces may slow straight-ahead sprint speed, cause early fatigue, and increase muscular relaxation pressures, energy expenditure, blood lactate levels, maximal torque output, oxygen consumption, and heart rate. Two epidemiologic studies have been performed. At West Point, a randomized control study of 71 injuries in 1396 cadets indicated knee brace effectiveness with a statistically higher rate of injury in the control group (3.4/1000 exposures) than in the braced group (1.5/1000 exposures), with the most significance for medial collateral ligament sprains in defensive players. The Big Ten Conference conducted a descriptive study of 100 medial collateral ligament sprains among 987 players in different positions, strings, and types of session. Brace-wear tendency varied directly with the unbraced player counterpart’s risk of medial collateral ligament sprain, with the nonplayer linemen experiencing both the greatest risk of unbraced practice session injury (0.0801 injuries/1000 exposures) and the highest incidence of brace wear (85%). During practices, there was a nonsignificant but very consistent reduction in injury rate for braced players in every position and string. During games, there was also a reduced rate for linemen and the linebacker/tight end group. The study concluded that although the issue is not closed, preventive knee braces appear to offer some protection to the medial collateral ligament from a contact injury involving a valgus blow, but there may be negative effects on performance level, leg cramping, and fatigue symptoms.

 

[RADRick]

My riding has ended because I over jumped and flatlanded a couple years back. Before you assume I am a better rider I am truly a C class rider who was out just for fun. Altho I have always insisted my son wear his Asterisks I just didn't feel the need because I never jumped or really went fast.
This one time cost me a severred ACL, torn miniscus, fractured femur (1 inch above knee) and fractured Tibia (1 inch below the knee). There was no twisting involved and do I know for a fact that braces would have left me uninjured? No I cannot prove it but I believe (as does my Ortho) that the damage would have been far less severe.
I just happened to be using one of my son's Asterisks when I had my first appointment with the ortho surgeon and he took it for a couple days to take a real close look. His conclusion- the brace was something he would recommend for riders- as well as skiers (another sport I love).
BTW prior to my injury my knee was in great shape and strong .

Why was my earlier response to this deleted? If someone is going to yank replies just because they don't like them and not for any rule violation, that just isn't fair. :yell:

 

[RADRick]

I may be biased, opinionated, or just an out and jerk, but from where I'm standing it sure looks like you moto-journalist type guys are all the same, and have an interesting take on what you bring to a discussion.

:rotfl: No wonder most magazines SUCK SO BAD these days. :rotfl:

Yeah, and the internet is just chocked full of accurate information. Especially public forums! :yikes:

 

[Thump]

RADRick, The problem us Admins and Mods have with you in general is you are posting your opinions as facts and the facts you are providing are wrong. Have an opinion, great. Post it as such. Have a fact to post, great. Post it, but be prepared to back it up with supporting data. This site is moderated in a manner to weed out bad information and those people that post it.

Some examples of what I am talking about:

Most knee injuries are the result of a crash or bad riding technique (hooking a toe in turn). A healthy knee joint can withstand a fair amount of twisting and turning before serious injury will happen. A hip socket or femur will not.

Sounds like fact, can you back that up or is this speculation (opinion) on your part?

Braces tend to stiffen the knee so much that injuries to the hip, ankle and/or femur often result. A broken femur can be far more devastating than a twisted knee.

The average rider or novice racer probably doesn't need braces. Most will be fine with some good impact protection like that provided by knee/shin guards.

Opinion again or is this a fact?

Most often, the force required to break a femur will result in a compound instead of simple fracture. The femur has no give other than bone elasticity, which declines as one gets older. The knee can absorb more twist than a single bone. By eliminating the knee's ability to twist with the use of braces, the force is then transferred directly to the femur and hip joint.

Sounds like you should have some sort of data to back that up as it is most clearly stated as fact.

Since the advent of knee braces it has become more common (along with hip dysplacia) and that has nothing to do with the increase in popularity of dirt bikes.

There you go again.

Few will recommend brace use to someone with no prior injury who is a casual rider/racer.

I can assume you have polled 50, 100, 200? orthos across the US that are familiar with dirtbike related injuries? If not how do you know that "few" will recommend them?

I don't know what kind of "SWAG" you're used to, but you haven't gotten it from me.

See above quoted examples.

Why do you hang out in a forum run by a magazine and industry you obviously have such disdain for?

As a "journalist" you really do need to check your facts or no one will take you seriously.

The link you posted was to an event that occurred during a race.

You stated a fact and were given reference material and you still got it wrong. I take it reading comprehension was not a strong point in your education.

The protection given the rider in that instance isn't even the main point of a knee brace, which is to prevent hyper-extension and over-rotation of the knee joint.

The main point of a knee brace is to protect from injury. It did its job. According to Innovation Sports (CTi2) ACL, MCL, LCL, PCL, rotary and combined instabilities, Low, medium and high contact/impact activities are what it is designed for.

Excuse me, I should have said related to.

You were even told we were not associated with the magazine and you still did not check the facts before again making a WRONG statement of fact.

I see guys who are and will always be intermediate level trail riders wearing knee braces. Long before any chance for a knee injury ever crosses their path, they are suffering from fatigue, movement restriction and elevated temperatures from their braces.

Really? I fell doing about 7-10 mph pulling off the track in the pits when my front tire slipped into a tire rut from a truck and tore my ACL, MCL, LCL and meniscus. Certainly the chance for me to do that kind of damage should not have been present in the pit area?

I guess I'm the first to make that mistake, huh?

Yes, you are the first to make the mistake after being told after the first time.

You had to have known the potential for confusion with the print magazine when you registered the domain name.

So I guess Motocross Action should have thought people would confuse them with AMA Motocross. This site is about riding motorcycles in the dirt... Dirt Riding. It is on the internet this DirtRider.net. Seriously, are you going there to justify your moronic statement... twice?

I don't know why you and Rich have a hard-on for motojournalists, but that's your prerogative.

Because you perpetuate the stigma that we (dirt bike riders) are ignorant by posting wrong information and stating facts that are wrong then claim they are opinon.

Show me where I presented anything as other than my opinion or personal experience.

See above.

I'm still waiting for you to show me anything I presented as undeniable "FACT."

See above

Yeah, and the internet is just chocked full of accurate information. Especially public forums!

We know info on the net is often times bunk, that is why when people such as yourself come on and post complete BS we call them on. The goal of this site is to provide accurate information. You are the polar opposite. See definition below.

ac·cu·rate -- adj.
Conforming exactly to fact; errorless.
Deviating only slightly or within acceptable limits from a standard.
Capable of providing a correct reading or measurement: an accurate scale.
Acting or performing with care and precision; meticulous: an accurate proofreader.

 

[Rich Rohrich]

Yeah, and the internet is just chocked full of accurate information. Especially public forums! :yikes:

I couldn't care less what happens on other forums, trying to keep our own house in order takes up enough time (especially as of late). ;)

Why was my earlier response to this deleted? If someone is going to yank replies just because they don't like them and not for any rule violation, that just isn't fair. :yell:

None of your posts were deleted. If we were going to delete posts from you this thread would be a whole lot shorter.

 

[Vic]

FWIW- Me and my torn menisci love our Asterisks. :)

 

[mxwannabe]

Really? I fell doing about 7-10 mph pulling off the track in the pits when my front tire slipped into a tire rut from a truck and tore my ACL, MCL, LCL and meniscus. Certainly the chance for me to do that kind of damage should not have been present in the pit area?

LOL ive been noticing alot of people get injured alot when they are going under 10pmh, including myself. I wonder if its just cause were not paying as much atention to whats going on or if we just are stupid lol. I for one know 55% of my injuries are from farting around going slow. :| Anyone else suffer from slowitis :laugh:

 

[Okiewan]

Anyone else suffer from slowitis

Yup.

 

[XRpredator]

. . . Although functional performance studies are not consistent, preventive knee braces may slow straight-ahead sprint speed, cause early fatigue, and increase muscular relaxation pressures, energy expenditure, blood lactate levels, maximal torque output, oxygen consumption, and heart rate. . . . The study concluded that although the issue is not closed, preventive knee braces appear to offer some protection to the medial collateral ligament from a contact injury involving a valgus blow, but there may be negative effects on performance level, leg cramping, and fatigue symptoms.

well, duh! You got something tight strapped to your leg, it's gonna slow your "straight-ahead sprint speed" and have "negative effects on performance level, leg cramping, and fatigue symptoms." Wrap an elastic band tightly around any muscle and tell me if you see anything different. It doesn't take a kinesiologist to figure that out. My feet do that when I tie my shoes too tight.

As far as the original question, I've heard good things about both braces. Most guys wear Asterisk. Take it for what its worth, wear what feels best because it ain't gonna do you no good if you buy 'em and don't wear 'em because they are uncomfortable.

 

[oldguy]

Why was my earlier response to this deleted? If someone is going to yank replies just because they don't like them and not for any rule violation, that just isn't fair. :yell:

I am sorry but I went to bed shortly after posting what you responded to and would have been interested to see your take on my situation. I didn't delete anything

 

[RADRick]

RADRick, The problem us Admins and Mods have with you in general is you are posting your opinions as facts and the facts you are providing are wrong. Have an opinion, great. Post it as such. Have a fact to post, great. Post it, but be prepared to back it up with supporting data. This site is moderated in a manner to weed out bad information and those people that post it.

Some examples of what I am talking about:
Sounds like fact, can you back that up or is this speculation (opinion) on your part?



Opinion again or is this a fact?

Sounds like you should have some sort of data to back that up as it is most clearly stated as fact.

There you go again.

I can assume you have polled 50, 100, 200? orthos across the US that are familiar with dirtbike related injuries? If not how do you know that "few" will recommend them?

See above quoted examples.

As a "journalist" you really do need to check your facts or no one will take you seriously.

You stated a fact and were given reference material and you still got it wrong. I take it reading comprehension was not a strong point in your education.

The main point of a knee brace is to protect from injury. It did its job. According to Innovation Sports (CTi2) ACL, MCL, LCL, PCL, rotary and combined instabilities, Low, medium and high contact/impact activities are what it is designed for.

You were even told we were not associated with the magazine and you still did not check the facts before again making a WRONG statement of fact.

Really? I fell doing about 7-10 mph pulling off the track in the pits when my front tire slipped into a tire rut from a truck and tore my ACL, MCL, LCL and meniscus. Certainly the chance for me to do that kind of damage should not have been present in the pit area?

Yes, you are the first to make the mistake after being told after the first time.

So I guess Motocross Action should have thought people would confuse them with AMA Motocross. This site is about riding motorcycles in the dirt... Dirt Riding. It is on the internet this DirtRider.net. Seriously, are you going there to justify your moronic statement... twice?

Because you perpetuate the stigma that we (dirt bike riders) are ignorant by posting wrong information and stating facts that are wrong then claim they are opinon.

See above.

See above

We know info on the net is often times bunk, that is why when people such as yourself come on and post complete BS we call them on. The goal of this site is to provide accurate information. You are the polar opposite. See definition below.

A lot of time spent calling me a liar and not one shred of evidence to back it up beyond your personal opinion. You assail me for allegedly posting opinion as fact, yet you post nothing of value to prove me wrong or to support your position. That makes you a hypocrite. You can say what you want about what I said, I stand behind it. Over the past 20 years I've dealt with many orthopods and other health care professionals. The ones who would blindly recommend rigid braces for motorcycle riders without having any clinical data to base it on are in the minority. Most would prefer they be prescribed and fitted on a per patient basis, not sold retail by a minimum wage clerk at a cycle shop to anyone that wants them. If the benefits were so clear cut, why doesn't every player in the NFL wear them? Are the ones who don't just stupid or risk takers? Like most things in life, there is a benefit/disadvantage ratio that has to be considered.

Whatever opinions I put forth that you determined were presented as fact, they were based on my personal experience and conversations with knowledgeable people and review of some of the available literature. The concerns I raised are real even if you don't think so. Bottom line is that knee braces are not the panacea they're made out to be. They should not be given blanket recommendation to any and all riders, which is what you appear to be saying about them. Using any safety device simply because someone else says, "Hey, they worked for me!" is ignorant. When human physiology develops to the point where mothers start spitting out children with identical physical makeups, then a one-size-fits-all mentality will make more sense. Until then, we need to consider things like safety equipment on a more singular level and apply it to our own individual needs. Just like no one brand and model of bike fits every rider, no one piece of safety equipment is appropriate for all. That's all I'm saying.