Dterrian

Member
Apr 22, 2000
2
0
After spending the summer being pounded and punished by my 00' CR250, I pulled my old 95' CR250 off the trailer and was amazed to find that I like the old, totally stock suspension much better. To add insult to injury, I rode a 01' YZ250 last weekend and came away mucho impressed with it's ability to soak up bumps without making me feel old and feeble. I love the way my 00' handles and the motor is perfect, but what can I do to make the suspension plusher (like my clapped-out 95'!)? I've moved the clickers around with some success, just not enough. I'm done for the season as the snow will soon fly in Michigan, so I'm planning on sending the suspension off to be revalved but I don't really know what to ask for. I weigh 165lbs and ride in the "B" class (with great speed for the first lap or so, then my bike beats me into submission and I trailride for the last 4)..
 

Jeff Howe

Member
Apr 19, 2000
456
1
I ride the exact same way except my suspension is is the only thing that allows me to go one lap at speed, then my tongue gets wrapped up in the spokes and I flounder for 4 laps.
 

Jeff Howe

Member
Apr 19, 2000
456
1
On a more serious note, your stock springs are in the ball park for your weight. Your fork springs might be suspect as all that I have tested in 00 CR have rated .40kg and I would suggest .42kg for you. You would want them tested to be sure.

You could gain more clicker adjustability by switching fluids to Mobil 1 ATF, or any heavier fluids like Motorex 7.5wt. The MObil 1 works awesome,is synthetic and cheap at about $5 a bottle. It is what I use in my personal bike and for my customers. In consideration of revalve, do it! Your bike needs some help there. No if's and's or but's that bike needs a revalve, especially the shock.

If you need more specific answers drop me a note.
 

yo its matt!

Member
Aug 26, 2000
69
0
hey shocknut,

my buddy is having the same trouble on his 00cr250, hes a pro harescramble rider here in nc, and this bike is killing him! hes had several wrist injuries and the forks are making things worse, the guy that usually does his suspension stuff said he hasnt had much luck with these so he didnt want to attempt it, so now hes a little spooked and not sure what to do, hes about 178-180lbs, likes the forks on big hits, i rode it today and compaired to my 01yz426 its really harsh
he has the comp adjusters all the way out and its so rough on light chop! you feel every pebble in the trail, im 205 and i still felt that it transfered every bump to your hands, would mobil 1 help? what can be done? if i can show him some improvemnt i think i can talk him into revaling this beast
 

John Blaze

Member
Feb 24, 2000
29
0
I rode a friend of mines '00 CR250 and loved the suspension. I thought it handled everything really nicely. It wasn't as stiff as my XR's (Race Tech Modified) forks but they were a LOT better. Might just be rider preference.


------------------
Johnny Campbell
Reno, Nevada
'99 XR442 (For Sale) http://johnnyb.4t.com/forsale.html
'01 CR500AF (Coming Soon)
 

Jeff Howe

Member
Apr 19, 2000
456
1
Yo Matt,
Lets keep this simple, your compression is set at full out. What about your rebound setting?

Tear em' down and clean them good. I mean CLEAN. Everything. Blow everything out good with 80psi of air. Paying particular attention to bleed passages. Reassemble with Mobil 1 ATF, .42kg springs and set clickers at 14 out comp and 12 out rebound and go hit the trails agian and see if they are any better. No matter what you will never get them to work as good as a solid revalve job. E-mail me if you have more specific questions.
 

Pete Payne

MX-Tech Suspension Agent
Nov 3, 2000
932
38
Yo matt &Deterrian,
The 00 cr250 forks can be harsh but, before you bite the $$$$ for a revalve make sure that your forks are lined up properly at the front axle. If the bottom of the forks are pulled in or pushed out they will not function properly, they have to be parallel to each other . If the axle has ever been hammered in, the end that the hammer hit is probably mushroomed out and will not line up properly no matter what.
This fork has a mid-valve that is way too stiff for the average rider . The race tech fork mentioned previously mentioned probably had the mid-valve changed to a check plate to aleviate the harshness. This mod works great for everybody except for really fast supercross riders they dont have any real bad breaking bumps to worry about and are generally in realy good shape.
Just some food for thought!
Pete

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mxpaul

Member
Sep 11, 2000
10
0
Don't be so quick to blame the forks for being harsh without considering your shock. Yes the rear will have a direct affect on the front end harshness. Set your forks to stock settings, set your shock sag and go with 1.5 on the high speed and then start playing with the slow speed and rebound on the shock. This is what will have the biggest tunable affect on the 00'cr250's harshness.
 

zio

Mr. Atlas
Jul 28, 2000
2,291
0
mxpaul, you're scaring me. Everytime I experience something, you've replied about the same thing a moment before. You wouldn't be my smarter, evil twin, would you?

I just realized yesterday in a rough race that my shock is just as important as my forks. As the forks rock the bike back over a certain bump (because they don't absorb the small hit), the shock then rocks the bike forward when the rear tire hits the same bumb. neither end was doing it's job of absorbing the small bumbs on the trail. I actually think I could have handled the stiff fork if the rear seat wouldn't have been punishing my butt like a prison inmate.

At least that was my impression, anyway. It was so hard to manage the '00 CR250 at race speed on a very rough HareScramble course that was filled with rocks and lots of choppy, 1/2 to 1 1/2 ft high bumps(note: race speed for me is a casual sunday drive for most).

Revalve or kTm, here I come.
 

Jeremy Wilkey

Owner, MX-Tech
Jan 28, 2000
1,453
0
Originally posted by Pete Payne:
This fork has a mid-valve that is way too stiff for the average rider . The race tech fork mentioned previously mentioned probably had the mid-valve changed to a check plate to aleviate the harshness. This mod works great for everybody except for really fast supercross riders they dont have any real bad breaking bumps to worry about and are generally in realy good shape.
Just some food for thought!
Pete

[/B]

Pete,
I would like your comments on this please..


I personally think anyone who removes a mid-valve should be burned at the stack or inviscerated (Just like what they have done to there forks).

Jer
 

MACE

LIFETIME SPONSOR
Nov 13, 1999
441
0
We all repeat the midvalve lore we hear from the Thede desciples.

Problem with midvalves is that they are such a bitch to get to that we (the great unwashed) never experiment with them. Everytime I pull the top caps off my cartridges I'm afraid I'm going to crush something with my vise. (Yeah, I'm using improvised tooling.)
 

John Curea

LIFETIME SPONSOR
Feb 29, 2000
177
0
INVISCERATED ???? IS THAT LIKE CASTERATED??!!!
eek.gif
or mabye you meant "emancipated"
wink.gif


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JTT

~SPONSOR~
Aug 25, 2000
1,407
0
...ok, I'm going to ask a dumbass question
redface.gif

...what is this "mid valve" we are refering to? I was only aware of one valve in my CR forks....
 

Pete Payne

MX-Tech Suspension Agent
Nov 3, 2000
932
38
J. Wilkey,
I was just responding to the fact of why the race tech modified forks worked so well. I have personally done this mod in my shop and it works great for me and was not saying that this was the only way to get a plusher setup fork. This mod does require other things to be changed to work in conjunction with it .There are many ways to get to the same end result of a way better ride. Sorry ,I dont want to be viscerized!!
 

Jeff Howe

Member
Apr 19, 2000
456
1
JTT,

Midvalve is located on the back side of your rebound piston opposite your rebound valving
It's true that the CR uses lots of midvalve but it also bleeds more as well.

Pete Payne,
The forks previously mentioned that were RT'd were XR forks. To my knowledge they don't use midvalves. Furthemore, that post stated that the CR forks worked better than his RT'd forks. At least that's what I gathered from the post. Removing the midvalve is an option for some I guess but I prefer to work with them now after learning more about them.
 

JTT

~SPONSOR~
Aug 25, 2000
1,407
0
Originally posted by Shocknut:
JTT,

Midvalve is located on the back side of your rebound piston opposite your rebound valving
It's true that the CR uses lots of midvalve but it also bleeds more as well.

P

...er...isn't that the compression side of piston? Is there another compression stack somewhere?
 

Jeff Howe

Member
Apr 19, 2000
456
1
JTT,
Yeah, I guess you could refer to it as the compression side if that helps. And yes, there is another compression stack. It's located on your compression assembly which is the 32mm nut with the adjuster in the center of it. If you remove this assembly you will see a piston with a valving arrangement(compression) on one side and a check plate on the other. This compression stack is the one revalved for better performance.

The midvalve has replaced the old style checkplate arrangement on the rebound piston. Remove your cartridge rod and you can see this. Race Tech guys remove the midvalve and convert it back to a checkplate.
 

Jeremy Wilkey

Owner, MX-Tech
Jan 28, 2000
1,453
0
<<<<This is not directed to or for anyone>>>>


I use this as a story or a comentary and I want to mention that no one has earned the right to be flamed here.. I'm just worked up..

The mid-valve only impacts the "mid-speed" and unless the bumps are bike size will it make a front suspension harsh..

They will provide more feedback but not harshness. IMO that anyone who completly removes a mid-valve has no concept of the componets in a modern fork and how they work.

I think the reason RT replaces the mid-valve is they would hate to have to devlop new technology on there base-valve..I mean WHY go test and use new tech. when we can just modify the exsiting stuff so it works like the old stuff..

Anyway how about some food for thought. I'm taking artialliary from Shocknut here but I can resist no longer.. Can you tell me what the difrence between say a GV and a Stock Showa Fork piston? 20,23,25.. Hum real equal area.. I'm willing to bet you could get the monkey of your back and avoid the twelve step program if you got you calculator and changed the pivot to OD ratio to be equal with RT's GV..

Or you could join the rest of the educated suspension comunity and realize that removing the mid-valve makes the 91 KX 250 fork no difrent than a modern one.. Hum

BTW
Invisercated is the midevil practice of removing the bowels of a poor soul while they are (brefily) alive.. Ever (seen my favorite movie) Brave heart.. Rather graphic portrail..

I used it as a distaful anlogy to removing the mid-valve..

Jer
 

cr250john

Member
Jun 14, 2000
122
0
Originally posted by Jeremy Wilkey:
....Invisercated is the midevil practice of removing the bowels of a poor soul while they are (brefily) alive...

Boy... Don't want to get on your bad side Jer. LOL
eek.gif


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cr250john
Mine '00 CR-250 - '95 Yamaha Virago XV-750
Kids '01 CR-80's
 

John Curea

LIFETIME SPONSOR
Feb 29, 2000
177
0
Jer,
Ok, let me see if I got this right.... The midvalve provides more "feedback" to the rider. This may seem like harshness to an unsuspecting rider. "Most" suspension shops are removing the midvalve which will create a plushness over the small trail stuff, but the rider will suffer greatly when the going gets nasty (ie. "g" outs, whoops, big stuff). They are selling this concept hoping the rider will jump on his bike and be so elated over the smoothness of the small stuff that he wont realize the level of control he's compromizing on the nasty sections of trail.

I would speculate and say that the midvalve should be tuned in relation to the rest of the suspension, that being a fast rider would have his midvalve tuned for more "feedback", and firmness , a faster rider would be in shape to handle a bike set up this way. Where as a slower rider wouldn't need this level of firmness, because he wouldnt be hitting the trail as fast or hard.

I would also say that the one important item a suspension shop, that chooses to use the technology of the midvalve, must absolutely be "in touch" with the riders' speed and ability. Because if the shop gets this incorrect and sets up the bikes' capacity exceeding the riders ability, it will be the rider who suffers on ride quality.
John

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JTT

~SPONSOR~
Aug 25, 2000
1,407
0
Originally posted by KXVET#207:

I would also say that the one important item a suspension shop, that chooses to use the technology of the midvalve, must absolutely be "in touch" with the riders' speed and ability. Because if the shop gets this incorrect and sets up the bikes' capacity exceeding the riders ability, it will be the rider who suffers on ride quality.
John

I appologize for getting off the subject, but in referance to John's comments, how do you revalve for a given rider (shock or fork) with only riders provided "level". I mean, one may consider himself/herself (politically correct, as always) an "expert" "aggressive" rider, but relative to what? ...to the likes of Carmichael? or his/her cousin with the "buggy"?

...just always wondered that...

JTT
 

Dterrian

Member
Apr 22, 2000
2
0
Wow. All I really wanted to know is if it's possible to make my beloved
00' CR250 ride like it's older brothers
or blue neighbors. I want a YZ ride with my bikes turning, motor, clutch, air manners and build quality and ergo's.
I'm thinking it needs stiffer springs and lighter damping, but then again my old 95'CR has sacked out springs and
I like the way it rides. Or maybe they're not sacked out - does anyone know the difference in stock spring rates
between the 95' and 00'? I remember reading an article a few years ago where some company came out with an
off-road version of the CR250 called a CRE250. The article said that somehow they revalved the suspension in
a way that "de-aluminized" the feel of the bike. That's where I want to be. And maybe a flywheel weight, but that's
all. Well, maybe a stronger throttle return spring, but that's definitely it....
 

Pete Payne

MX-Tech Suspension Agent
Nov 3, 2000
932
38
Dterrian,
How about this thought! Maybe the mid-valve on your 95 CR250 is bent and stuck open, this would give a softer ride. This is one good reason to convert the mid-valve to a chack plate design. The check plate is thicker and will not bend , so it always performs the same. Then you can tune in everything with the base valve.
Believe me I owned an aluminum framed CR250 and it was very harsh, I weigh in at 240lbs and am a long time expert . I tried tuning the mid-valve down to be better and went to the Race Tech check plate and valve assembly and the bike felt much better , this works great on the CR250 aluminum frame. I also built an aluminum framed CR500 and the stock forks were harsh even with the extra weight and power of the 500 engine in the 250 frame.
 
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