05 CR250 and CR125 news.....Just out

[john3_16]

Well, I just looked at a new issue of Dirt Bike magazine at the bookstore yesterday and they had a picture of the 05 CR250 with some news on the changes as well as changes to the 125.

For the CR250 it sounds like the same changes...It looks exactly like the 03' model but the changes are the same..Revised porting, carburation, and cases...In 04 they did all that and it got weaker from the 03 model (46.6 hp)...Maybe they'll get it right this year...

The 125 gets a new electronic power valve, porting ect..ect..

We'll have to see if the changes make any difference..The CR is an awesome handling bike with an awesome upper midrange and topend hit.....Just don't make a mistake on it in the corners! No low end...If they can give the CR a strong low end and midrange it'll be a great bike...We'll have to wait and see if they get it right.

 

[BEEF706]

You might have to wait a little longer, I was told yesterday that Honda has pushed back the 2-strokes arrival date.

 

[mtk]

The Dirt Bike magazine info is the same as the '04 press release info. In other words, Dirt Bike screwed the pooch and published last year's info again for '05. IF you check the Honda website, you'll see it's word for word from the '04 model listings.

 

[Rider 007]

John,
Are you referring to the August issue or has the September issue hit the stands in your area?

I mentioned in another thread that the pictures of the CR250 and 125 on page 22 are not 05 models.
If you look closely I think you'll see that they are actually 04 models.
If it's the September issue, I haven't seen it yet, in which case ignore the above! :eek:

:ride:

 

[john3_16]

I think it was the September issue......I'll have to double check.....It does sound like the same changes that were announced for 2004.....Very strange.

 

[bedell99]

Ya they just screwed up and jumped the gun a bit. Nothing like publishing bogus material.

Erik

 

[Jumo 628]

tsk tsk tsk. Considering all the other makes are releasing quite a bit of info/pics if not letting mags ride thier 05's already one must wonder....

 

[shnalln]

You might have to wait a little longer, I was told yesterday that Honda has pushed back the 2-strokes arrival date.

It almost makes you wonder if Honda didn't catch wind earlier of what Yamaha threw out there this year, or wanted to see what they did, and said "Oh ****, we better do something here!" I think that there's still a market for two strokes, I just cant see Honda giving up that market to it's competetors. It just doesn't make good buisiness sense even if the market is declining to four strokes. Faster and considerably lighter two strokes (like the '05 YZ250) could very well offset the four stroke market...maybe...time will tell if they've got something up their sleeve.

 

[mtk]

It almost makes you wonder if Honda didn't catch wind earlier of what Yamaha threw out there this year, or wanted to see what they did, and said "Oh ****, we better do something here!"

That's what I'm thinking. I'll bet that Honda was planning on minor refinements for '05 and then an extensive redesign in '06 on the two-strokes. When they got wind of Yamaha's extensive changes for '05, they decided to move up the '06 model to '05 in response, but that put them behind schedule. So they held off releasing the '05 two-strokes until the September dealer show (which is the latest rumored release date for the two-strokes) while they burn the midnight oil to get the bikes done and into production. I can't see any other reason for the delay. I also think they'd have said something if they dropped the CR two-strokes completely since the bikes have been very successful over the years. They wouldn't just drop it without some type of marketing spin.

I was talking with a friend of mine about it and he said he heard something about a Honda exec claim they were misquoted about the whole "two-stroke" thing. They DID claim that Honda is a "four-stroke" company and that was blown out of proportion by the media. Their position is that two-stroke "competition" bikes are a different animal and they planned on continuing to build two-strokes until at least 2011, as long as there was demand. Their watercraft, lawnmowers, and all that would be four-stroke but the CR (and RS GP bikes) would not be affected.

We'll see what the truth is.

 

[CRspode]

I'll bet that Honda was planning on minor refinements for '05 and then an extensive redesign in '06 on the two-strokes. When they got wind of Yamaha's extensive changes for '05, they decided to move up the '06 model to '05 in response, but that put them behind schedule. So they held off releasing the '05 two-strokes until the September dealer show (which is the latest rumored release date for the two-strokes) while they burn the midnight oil to get the bikes done and into production. I can't see any other reason for the delay.

I hope they don't rush to release a model that is unfinished or not tested enough a year early just to meet the competition. They most likely had a heads up on what Yamaha was doing already so hopefully we'll get a new CR that is ready for release.

Scott

 

[marcusgunby]

Dont forget the 05s were actually built a good few months ago-they are actually designing the 07s at this point.

 

[mtk]

All true. But what I typed was the only reason I could come up with to hold off on the new model. And yes, production would have started a few months ago on the '05 models, but not if they did a late intro. It wouldn't be the first time a bike has been released late and probably won't be the last.

And while I'm sure they are working on the '07 (and '08, '09, etc.) models right now, the '06 models won't be finalized at this stage of the game because they'll encorporate what they learn racing the '05s into the '06 models. Racing improves the breed and all that rot.

If they dropped the big, two-stroke CRs, marketing would have put out a press release about how Honda was retiring the highly successful CR line in favor of the CRF models and how great for the environment it would be and all that crapola. They'd put some happy spin on it for sure, rather than let them slink away in the night. After all, the CR250 is the only bike ever to pull off a perfect season (Honda doesn't care about the rider; it's their bike as far as marketing is concerned) so they wouldn't drop it without a bit of explanation. If the '05s were just refinements of the '04, why wait until September (as is the current rumor) to release them? Folks who are buying '05 bikes in August or September are sales they're missing out on since they have no product in the dealer showrooms. So I still think Big Red has something up it's sleeve for next year. We'll know who's right in a month or so.

 

[CRspode]

Great reasoning mtk, I hope you're correct. It's early but right now I'm eyeballing the new RM250. Hopefully Honda makes it a hard decison.

Scott

 

[Sawblade]

Marcus is right, the 05 are most likely in crates on a westward journey. I wonder if the 05 releases at the Sept dealer show has to do with 04 CR’s still setting on dealers floors? The reason I say this is there are two Honda shops within 20 minutes of my house. Both have 04 125’s and 250’s setting on the floor. All the CRF’s are long gone with only the little CRF play bikes to keep the lonesome CR’s company.

 

[KX02]

Well, I can't wait to see how this soap opera ends!!! This is history in the making. I'm not sure what to believe. I thought with RC riding a 450 and mags saying the CRF 450 is the best dirt bike in history the 2 strokes were dead, but now I'm not so sure. Only thing I can say is that if some Honda exec said Honda would be building 2 strokes until 2011 he was knee deep in it. Nobody can say what will happen by then. Tune in tomorrow to, as the world turns... ;)

 

[MXP1MP]

This reminds me more like when the '97 CR 250 came out, the bike was done and made but american honda R&D dept pushed back the release date due to last min suspenion changes. The bike didn't come out till around mid october. All cause of some suspenion valving changes, Maybe this is part of the cause.

 

[mtk]

I don't think the Honda exec was knee-deep in anything. I can guarantee you that Honda is thinking that far ahead in their R&D efforts. 2011 is only six model years away. But the key to his statement was "if there is demand." No demand = no supply (they don't call 'em Economic Laws for nothing ;) ).

I just hope Honda doesn't drop them. Honda's the 800lb gorilla of the motorcycle industry and their mere presence in the market makes everyone else better. Even if their bike isn't the best right now, the fact that they have huge sums of R&D money makes them a constant threat. You can't rest on your laurels in a market with competition.

I guess when the dealer show arrives will separate the BS from the facts. :D

 

[bclapham]

i think the reason they havent got a date yet is that they are spending all their resources producing more CRFs- remember last year the CR125 came out late because of an extra run of CRF250s.

There are as many CRFs at most tracks as all the other bikes put together, they sell, so they will make more at the expense of their lame ass CRs they keep making- its a shame that both of these bikes are really good apart from the motors.

 

[RAR]

Can the aftermarket companies make the CR 2-stroke motors as strong or stronger than the YZ an RM motors?

 

[john3_16]

Can the aftermarket companies make the CR 2-stroke motors as strong or stronger than the YZ an RM motors?

The CR 250 motor is just as strong stock...It's the delivery of the power that some don't like...

Actually the 03' CR250 made the second highest HP 46.6...Second only to the 49 hp of the KTM...So in this case it is actually stronger stock than the RM and YZ....However, the RM and YZ have a better band of power.

The problem with the CR250 is the spread of the power...A mellow low end with shreaking upper mid and top end pull....

Yes the aftermarket companies can change the power characteristics....

 

[bedell99]

Tha main problem is see with the CR is inherent with it's design. It as a couple of negatives going against it. The first is the case reed design. From my understanding this type of intake port configuration helps with the mid to upper ends of the power band. This is why 125's have this type of engine. Next is the large ports. I'm not an expert in porting, but I would think that a smaller port aids in velocity which helps bottom end, while a larger port gets more flow which aids in high rpm situations. I have seem a lot of 250 cylinders and in comparision my ports are much bigger. Next is the electronic power valve. I consider this a plus in my opinion, but I know most people consider it a negative. It open's methodically, which gives the engine no hit, in contrast with a ramp style power valve which open abruptly and gives you that hit most people crave. I know most people like the hit of a 250 . I also think it is not very complicated, which aid's in maintence, so I guess it is a push.(Anyone ever take a look at KTM's powervalve system, it is the most complicated thing I have ever saw). Next which to me is the most important is the carburation. Notice that KTM,Yami and Suzuki use Keihn carbs while the CR uses a mikuni. My bike "was" a nightmare to jet and is still very finicky. I think that Honda should go back to using a Keihn carb. There are a lot of people on this board who put them on there 02&03 with favorable results.The last is the airbox and airboot design. Next time your in a dealer look at the airboots of the Suzuki and Yamaha, the just look bigger,straighter and less cramped. Ithink this is because of the perimter aluminum frame. It just tight for space. I think there can be some changes made which would benefit the CR for 05 without a total redisign. 1) A new frame which would allow a straighter intact track and bigger airbox. 2)Change the carb to Keihn with TPS and actually have the jetting close enough that people don't have to rip out there hair trying to get the bike jetted crisply. 3) Go with a boyesen or moto tassiniri reed cage stock. It seems these things work for this bike. Do what KTM did and give us one stock 4)Put a 49 tooth sprocket on the rear. I personally think this bike work's better with a 49 tooth sprocket.5) reconfigure the power valve to snap open and give the bike a hit. Honda you have a lot of testing with RC at the helm of the CR, you must of learned something. Please don't turn your back on this bike.

Erik

 

[john3_16]

I agree...I think for the most part it's the case reed motor that leans toward upper mid and high RPM power...By no means is the motor weak...It is very strong...Just needs a couple of changes.

Erick has a good idea with the power valve design..This alone could do wonders for the power delivery.

 

[James]

I'm not convinced the CR is all that bad. Keep in mind that all that is to follow is my opinion and I don't claim to be an expert. I am also not offended by people who say bad things about CRs because they help me buy mine cheap ;)

I have the 00, 01, and 02 CR250s....currently, right now, at the same time.

I'd say that the 02 is not lacking any hit. I'd also say that the 02 is stronger than both the 00 and 01 where it matters (to me) on the track....in the middle. Maybe the 01 revs out further, maybe the 00 has a little more bottom end, I don't know, they are all so close it is hard to say. I do know that the 02 is most likely to stand up in third gear when it hits the powerband, and if I carry just enough speed through a corner with it, it is the easiest to jump a short approach with. I am an average rider at best, probably not that good, and relatively fat, so I'd say that the so-called lack of bottom end power wouldn't be a problem for people that can actually ride. I ride the 00 and 01 more because they seem to have less hit.

The 00 runs identically (as far as I can tell) with the Keihin and Mikuni carbs, if they are jetted correctly....same with the 01. The Keihin doesn't fit into the 02 good enough for me to run it...I can switch intakes on the 00/01. The nice thing about the Mikuni is if you are off that day, you switch the nozzle and main and go. There is little adjustment for the middle on the Keihin and you have to use the needle. The nice thing about the keihin is the screw off top and easily adjustable idle. My Keihin spews as much oil out the back as my Mikuni does when it is off. Everyday is an exercise in jetting no matter which carb/bike I am running IF I want it perfect. The S8 nozzle seems to be the best compromise if I don't want to fiddle with the Mikuni all day. I have no problem getting it real crisp with the S7. Now that I think about it, I have been running the Mikuni most of the time lately and the Keihin has been sitting in a box.

I'll take mine without a TPS please.

The only thing keeping these carbs from being 100% accessible in and around the frame spars is the length of the throtlle cable. It helps to route it correctly. But I usually have no problem twisting it and getting to the float bowl or the needle. I did have the Rad Valve on the 00 and it did push the carb back about 1/4 of an inch making it nearly impossible to get at the jets and needle. It also did little if anything noticeable for the performance that good jetting couldn't do...so Mr. Boyesen was nice enough to refund my money according to his satisfaction guaranteed policy. I will never again drop money on a reed setup.

I will admit that the airbox is cramped, and wonder how you can get a straighter intake without offsetting the shock? It is also a pain getting the engine out of that frame!!

Maybe the 92-99s were a world better and maybe these are the CRs everybody compares too. I have only ridden a 97 from that selection so I wouldn't know.

 

[bedell99]

James nice post,

I got my terminology a bit mixed up, what I meant is a keihn or even a mikuni with a power jet. From my understanding they work very well on 250's and for this reason. Unlike a 125 in which you are wide open most of the time and use the main circuit alot, a 250 is more on and off using the pilot and mid circuit. This can cause some issue's in jetting and make the engine think it is much more rich than it actually is. I see alot of rider think there main jet is too rich cause they have goop coming out the silencer, but in reality then never get the engine hot enough to fully evaporate the fuel, so they think going leaner on main solves there problem, but in all essence they are not riding the bike the way it meant to be ridden. This is why I like the power jet idea. It allows the carb to run a leaner main jet than it requires because at high loads the power jet squirts a bit more gas into the circuit. This is perfect for a 250 bike and the average rider. Since the CR has a mid and up powerband, most casual riders really don't get the bike singing long and hard enough to really utilize the main circuit, which in my opinion cause all the goop out of the pipe. I had so many jetting issues with this bike in the beginning. I was one of the followers who thought leaner was better. Once I realized the benefits of race gas and how a distilation curve works, i realize i was running too lean(even at altitude) and the pump fuel and my riding style was causing my erratic jetting. I just think using a carb with a power jet will solve alot of the issues that are associated with jetting on these bikes. I look at all the bikes with the Keihn carb's and they don't nearly have the problem's that are on our CR's.

Erik

 

[Rcannon]

I dont think any of the factories are working 1 year out.

I would guess their quickest reaction to Yamaha's 05's would be in 07. There is no way a factory could just skip 1 model year.

I bet even a change in graphics at the last minute would be a huge deal.

Notice the date of manufacture on most of the mx bikes we buy. No matter the serial number, the bike will be produced in the same month. Probably within the same week.

The bikes are late because Honda found something more profitable to build during their scheduled production run.