1996 KDX200 clutch problem? Stuck in neutral

[Rob84KDX200]

Hi all,

Went on my first ride on my KDX, on a reasonably hot day. I started off well in the first couple of minutes. But then gradually within half a minute or so, less and less power was transferred to the rear wheel. Up to the point that no matter which gear I selected, the bike will roll (ie. neutral throughout, stuck in neutral). This is regardless of whether my clutch lever is pulled in or not. I'm able to kickstart the bike in gear with no clutch lever pull.

As a side question - honestly, I'm having a lil trouble understanding the terminology associated with the 'clutch'. Disengaged (lever at rest) or engaged (lever pulled in)?

The gear shifting mechanism appears to be selecting like it should, solidly clicking through all the gears. The gear shift shaft seal appears to be ok, no leaking oil. Only the countershaft seal is suspect and needs replacing.

Could it be a clutch issue? I'm using 10W40 engine oil as recommended in the manual.

If anyone can point me in the right direction (hopefully not having to split the cases - touch wood), that'd be great.

 

[Backslayer]

Sounds like your clutch is gone to me. But to be sure, put your bike on the stand and go through the gears and make sure your in gear by spinning the rear wheel. you should have resistance. If you just cant go you need a new clutch, pull the clutch cover off and see if your basket is notched you may need a new one too.

 

[julien_d]

What sort of oil are you running in the gearbox? Modern motor oils with friction modifiers in them will cause such a problem.

It does indeed sound like the friction plates are gone.

J.

 

[Rob84KDX200]

Running regular 10w40 engine oil, no fancy friction modifiers.

 

[sr5bidder]

seems to me that its time to pull the right side off and not speculate about what may or may not be

hell I popped the outer cover off taday 2 1/2 hr from home to save the day...appears I forgot to torque the center clutch nut resulting in no clutch 30 minutes out in the woods, rode back to the truck laid it over and found/fixed the problem :cool:

 

[SS109]

Running regular 10w40 engine oil, no fancy friction modifiers.

Is that car oil or motorcycle specific oil?

 

[Rob84KDX200]

Is that car oil or motorcycle specific oil?

Mobil Super 2000 Semi-Synthetic High Performance Motor Oil 10W-40.

 

[julien_d]

I'm gonna bet you $10 that is what caused your problem. Notice the little round emblem that says "energy conserving" on the label of that mobil 1 super 2000? Yeah, that does not work with a wet clutch. Those anti-wear additives coat the plates in the wet clutch and prevent them from grabbing. If you're gonna use motor oil, you gotta use the cheap stuff that does NOT say "energy conserving" on the label. It is likely that your friction plates are burnt up now. You could try removing them, washing them, and soaking them in ATF type F. Run type F for at least the first oil change and see if you get some grab back to the clutch.




J.

 

[Rob84KDX200]

Thanks all, will get onto the ATF type F. Now to washing the contaminated plates... what's safe to use on these plates? (ie. petrol, parts/brake cleaner, turps, kerosine)

 

[julien_d]

I guess I'd use kerosene or diesel. No promises made or implied. This may not work at all if your friction plates are glazed.

I mention ATF because it has detergent properties that may also help to clean any remaining junk from the plates. It's also safe to use as your regular gearbox oil, should you choose to do so.

 

[mudpack]

From your description, it sounds like a slipping clutch. The reason for it slipping is an unknown at this point.
While using automotive engine oil is not the best for your clutch/gearbox, I seriously doubt that using it for ONE RIDE would result in total clutch failure. Just sounds like the clutch has worn out. It's a 1996 bike, right?
I'd agree with sr5bidder's post (#5): stop speculating and pull the clutch apart, inspect it, and replace the bad parts. You'll have to eventually anyway.
Good luck and welcome to a forum that is a wealth of information for the KDX200/220 owner...some of it is actually excellent. :) (It's up to you to pick out the good advice from the bogus...which isn't always easy to do)

 

[julien_d]

While using automotive engine oil is not the best for your clutch/gearbox, I seriously doubt that using it for ONE RIDE would result in total clutch failure.

Friction modifiers + fiber friction plates = instant slippage. I've seen it done several times.

 

[Rob84KDX200]

A brief update. Haven't had the chance to pull off the clutch case yet. But took the opportunity to drain the aforementioned Mobil Super 2000 oil... And boy oh boy does it stink! Definitely has that burnt smell, and noticed a few very tiny metal particles. More updates to follow.

 

[Joburble]

Mobil Super 2000 Semi-Synthetic High Performance Motor Oil 10W-40.

Not good. One ride can do it. A friend of mine did it, new plates for him. As the plates have more than likely got very hot, check for plate warp too. Not saying it is definately the oil, but it would be my guess. Use bike oil or ATF. Re: Metal. Maybe check for loose bolts in clutch basket too, just incase one has come loose and is shaving the clutch cover.

 

[mudpack]

Somewhere along the line, the myth started that some automotive oils have had chemical "friction modifiers" added to make them "energy conserving".
In truth, what makes oil "energy conserving" is that they are of a lower than normal viscosity. In order to meet ever more stringent emissions standards, oil companies have been gradually taking out anti-friction additives over the years.
This is one reason motorcycle oil is better than automotive oils; motorcycle oils do not have to meet the same emissions standards that automotive oils have to meet, and can retain all the anti-wear additives that are so desireable in our engines.

 

[julien_d]

uh huh................

The proof is in the pudding dude. If you're so certain of this, throw some nice mobil 1 (energy conserving) synthetic in your tranny and ride it hard for a day. You'll probably want to replace the burnt up clutch plates afterward. Regardless of why these oils are "energy conserving", they can and will prevent your clutch plates from being able to grab. Perhaps some of them would be usable without problems, perhaps not. Why take the chance? Just stay away from oils which are "energy conserving" certified.



J.

 

[mudpack]

Fixed:

Why take the chance? Just stay away from oils which are not rated as motorcycle oils.

I agree completely.
...and I think I see what the issue is here. You took my statement:"I seriously doubt that using it (Mobil 1 automotive oil)for ONE RIDE would result in total clutch failure." as implying that automotive oil is okay to use in a motorcycle gearbox/cltuch. That's not what I meant at all, and I apologize if I misled you.
Let me make myself perfectly clear: Automotive engine oil is NOT the best lubricant for your clutch and gearbox! Don't use it!

 

[julien_d]

ATF Type F is automotive oil. I'm a firm believer in using it anywhere there is constant gear mesh and wet clutches. I also see no problem with rotella, or other motor oils which are NOT "energy conserving".

Anyway, I have seen myself what some of these modern motor oils do to a set of wet clutches in a very short period of time, and I think the OP is about to find out first hand as well.

J.

 

[mudpack]

Use, and believe in, what you like, but as for me, I'm a firm believer in taking the recommendations of the Kawasaki factory engineers when they recommend a 10w-40 motorcycle oil in their gearboxes.
What would one hope to gain by using a lubricant that is not recommended?
More power? Not likely.
Improved longevity? Also, not likely.
Cheaper maintenance costs? Possibly, as long as the first two are at least equal to the factory recommendation...which is still questionable at this point.

 

[Rob84KDX200]

Another brief update... I've a new set of clutch plates/springs on order. Should be receiving them within a week or so.

Now I've popped open the clutch cover. First surprise - no clutch cover gasket! Remarkably, no oil leaks around the cover. Now I've yet to remove the clutch basket to inspect the plates. But from what I can already see, the clutch basket fingers have many grooves. And a few of the end tabs on the fingers are broken off.

So me thinks the next step would be to order/locate a replacement clutch basket.

More to follow...

 

[julien_d]

Ouch. Clutch baskets are harder to find in any kind of decent shape. I've seen a few pop up around ebay, but it's hard to tell the condition of a basket from the picture. And if you can find an OEM one to order new, it'll darn near break the bank.



Mud,

You're right of course. However, I do find that my bike shifts easier with its clutch in only fair condition when running ATF. It's a lot easier for me to find neutral when the bike is running, and the clutch seems to have more effective area in the pull (if that makes any kind of sense). Like i've said before, it could be just my imagination. Of course, if my clutch were in top notch condition it may not be an issue at all!

 

[Rob84KDX200]

Okay, a visual update... see my gallery pics. 3 pics showing you the clutch up close. The basket fingers are heavily grooved throughout, but here's the shocker.

There only appears to be 7 friction plates. Aren't there meant to be 8 such plates? So I dig in deep into the bottom of the clutch casing near the shift mechanism with my fingers... only to find more debris. If I've got this right, it is the 8th friction plate that is in pieces! The pieces look very similar to the other friction plates - black in color.

The friction plates are blackened, burnt. Just received a new set of plates/springs today. Now I'm on the hunt for a clutch basket...

Now a couple of questions. Firstly, the plate installation order. In one of my pics, you will see two steel plates next to each other. NO friction plate dividing them. Is this meant to be the case? What is the correct order? In my new plate/spring kit, I received 4 springs, 7 steel plates, and 8 friction plates.

Secondly, the clutch basket. Is an 89-94 model basket okay to use on 95-06 model KDXs?

Thanks again, I'll keep you posted.

 

[Joburble]

Oh no! I have just seen the pictures. My condolences.
I don't even think I have to check in the manual, the metal plates don't go next to each other.

Disclaimer: I am ultra fussy.
With that amount of damage to the clutch I would be splitting the cases and cleaning it all out. I would recommend replacing all of the bearings and seals too and obviously the entire clutch assembly. I know some may say it's overkill, but if you don't do it now in my opinion you will be doing it soon anyway, as all those metal bits (not just the part that have broken off but worn off too) have more than likely chewed up the bearings. I may be wrong about splitting the cases but that is what I would do, especially if you plan on keeping the bike as you will get the benefit of the new parts and trouble free running.

 

[SS109]

Oh no! I have just seen the pictures. My condolences.

+1

Notice that you are missing pieces off of the fingers? Where are they? It scares me to think where they are and you'll want to know before riding it again.

 

[mudpack]

Looks like the cause of the clutch going out was not the lubricant, but that it is just flat worn out/busted.
Let us know when you get it all cleaned up and new parts installed. Then run a good brand of motorcycle oil in the gearbox! Wouldn't hurt to change it after the first ride, too....................