Another clutch problem

[MX175]

I don't have a dragging clutch. I have one that won't engage completely. This 1988 KDX200 is new to me and I can't tell how it really runs because the clutch is always slipping. Of course the cable has been checked and it is fine.

So I removed the clutch cover. Well, well the clutch hub says "KX125D-A201". But would you automatically assume that a KX125 clutch would not be adequate for a KDX200? I haven't measured the plate thicknesses yet, but the springs are about 1.25" and the spec is 0.81". Can I make this clutch work or is it hopeless? Can I just put in a set of KDX200 springs?

Thanks for your help

 

[canyncarvr]

Don't know about the 125 application. Fredette certainly would.

Just because the springs are longer doesn't mean they are stronger.

Is the basket notched? The slipping may have nothing to do with spring force, but with lack of free movement of the plates.

Does it even have the correct number of discs? And are the plates steel? Some plates are not. Steel works better.

 

[MX175]

The clutch basket is not notched. From the Kawasaki website, I think all the plates are there. I will get it apart tonight to verify numbers, and materials, and thicknesses. I have a call (and an e-mail) in to Fredette. I am thinking that there may be a spacer or something missing so that the clutch plates just don't have enough force on them. I may just try throwing in a spacer or an extra plate, if there is room for it.

We appreciate the help,

 

[canyncarvr]

Be careful adding 'stuff'. Not to impugn or understate your understanding of things, but to maybe err on the side of the simple........Asyou say, there usually isn't a whole lot of 'room' in a clutch basket. Adding 'stuff' gets you to a state of coil-bind on the springs pretty quick.

Maybe the plates weren't put in right in the first place. While I've read a good deal of disagreement on the issue, a number of plate mfgs say you must soak the plates prior to install. True, they sit in oil, so why bother. They're also under pressure all the time whilst sitting there.

I've read of more than one clutch failure due to failure to follow the install instructions.

Mr. fredette is sometimes hard to get ahold of. Don't give up easily. Likely few have the experience he has with the kdx.

You mention the kawi site.......so it would show whether there is indeed a missing spacer.....or not?

Good luck.

 

[MX175]

Well Fredette says that clutch basket is stock??? And the spring lenghts in the service books are not always right??? I counted 7 friction plates and 6 steel rings in there last night, as shown on the Kawasaki website. The Kaw drawing does not show any extra spacers or anything. I thought the 1" (25mm) socket I took home last night would fit the clutch nut, but it didn't. I've got a 1-1/16 and a 1-1/8" going home with me tonight. I think I really need to look at these plates. By the way, the guy I bought the bike from, on eBay, has been extremely co-operative and says he will re-imburse me for any parts. I keep waiting to get screwed on eBay, but it hasn't happened yet.

The metal chips in my drained oil have me a little worried, but at least they appear to be aluminum, not steel. Before I tore the engine down, I changed the oil just in case the prior owner put in something with modifiers in it. We ran the bike for maybe 20 minutes with no change in the effectiveness of the clutch. Do you think he may have put in STP or something weird that caused the plates to slip too much?? I guess we'll see when I get it apart and cleaned up. The weather is getting too nice around here to be working on, instead of riding bikes....

 

[Trick24]

Reading your last few comments made me think (and laugh at myself) but I once put slick 50 in my bike thinking it would prolong the life of the bike, but it was so slick it wouldnt even budge, the clutch just slipped!! I drained the oil and replaced it with regular oil and it got up and went...Don't know if this helps but funny anyways!

Good Luck!

 

[canyncarvr]

re: 'Do you think he may have...'

While that would be completely absurd to any wrenching person, I wouldn't discount anything as a possibility.

Did the seller say, 'It didn't used to do that?' Of course, no sense in believing that, either.

Hopefully will be fine with some new parts.

I wouldn't call them 'chips', but tranny oil commonly is full of metallic junk. I'm sure you've seen that plenty with the bike stable you have....

Good luck...summore......

 

[MX175]

The clutch got pulled last night and everything looked wonderful except the grooves in the friciton plates seemed to be oriented opposite of what the KDX manual indicates. Do you think that alone could make it slip? The 7 plates and 6 rings look very good with no discoloration or unusual wear. The plates are 0.117-8" thick and the spec is 0.111" min. I am still suspicious of the "long" springs.

Exploring the KIPS for the first time, I broke the valve operating rod so I have an e-mail in to FRP for a new part. There was also only one circlip on the rod so I am not sure why it didn't just get stuck in the 'out' position. Everything is getting cleaned up, but it is a lot of work cleaning the exhaust junk. Any hints for easier cleaning of the hard black exhaust deposits? I've tried parts cleaner, acetone, kerosene, and soapy water. Elbow grease and a wire brush seem to work best so far.

Making progress...

 

[canyncarvr]

What the plates look like wouldn't say anything about additives and such as you brought up already. Guess you could try something like crc brakleen on 'em. Or just replace 'em if you don't want to go back into it again.

re: KIPS cleaning.

There are some tips on EGs site. Oven cleaner works well. Caution must be used when it comes to using it around aluminum. It eats aluminum!

re: broken rod.
Lucky you!!! Sometimes the rod breaks AFTER it's put back together. Damage ranges from noise to shattered cases, gears, baskets and such.

BTW..#1 reason the shaft breaks...failure to support it when you take off the top nut. Newer models have a flat on the shaft for a wrench. Don't know about yours. Support it anyway.

 

[MX175]

Final Word.

I got the engine back in the frame on Saturday and the clutch condition was unchanged. I noticed that with the clutch cable removed, there was no play in the actuator rod sticking up out of the right case. So now I am thinking the clutch is inadvertantly being applied. Sunday, the KDX comes back in the kitchen (it's 35 degrees out) and the right case comes off. There is still nothing obvious that should cause the clutch to be applied. So I leave off the washer between the rod that gets pushed into the clutch and the flared beveled hub type thing that fits into the center of the clutch to press the hub and separate the plates. Maybe that will give me the play that I need to engage the clutch completely. During assembly, I hear something internal go clunk as I am tightening the side case bolts. Now the clutch actuator arm, coming out of the case, has nice play. And of course the clutch is engaged correctly and I can ride the bike. I still have chewed up splines on the shift rod, so it didn't get ridden far, but I can fix that. It was great to be able to really ride it.

I am surprised that the clutch actuating mechanism seemed to be misaligned and that caused the clutch to be partially disengaged. It must have happened to the prior owner and again when I reassembled it. My first reassembly was with the engine on a bench. The second time was with the engine in the frame. Now I have to go back in to add that washer I left out, and I didn't bend the lock washer for the clutch hub nut.

FRP got me a new KIPS rod the next day for $25 (used). It works great. Wire brushing and carb cleaner got the KIPS components clean enough for good smooth operation. Thanks for the help.

 

[canyncarvr]

The 'H' model clutch has an alignment procedure involving washers and linkage rod condition.

Maybe yours was taken apart before and not put back together correctly?

Good deal on the kips rod! Much better than looking at a puddle of oil coming from a hole in the cases.

 

[skipro3]

Here is a tip on cleaning the KIPS. Don't wait. I pop the covers off and inspect regularly and apply a dose of brake cleaner spray. Within a quarter of a can, the entire system is flushed and clean. I reapply some two stroke oil with a pump spray bottle before reinstalling covers. Also, invest in an inch lb. torque wrench and use it. It will keep you from braking parts and get everything back together correctly. This only works after the entire system has been cleaned or you have a fairly new bike and start this maintenance early in it's career. I've done this twice now and my KIPS cleaning maintenance schedule will be approx. every 20 gallons of gas based on how much crud my bike accumulates. Yours may differ depending on premix used and jetting. I forgot to mention, use a rag to collect what you are flushing out so nothing back washes into someplace it isn't supposed to be. Even so, everything is liquified and a few cranks with the spark plug out will ensure you don't start an engine with a load of brake clean in the first charge.

 

[canyncarvr]

If you're spraying something like that (well, or anything into an assembled engine, at least ensure you have the piston @ TDC to help keep the solvent out of the engine.

....IF you're doing something like that.