ATF in gear oil (MXA recent issue)

[97 moto]

I have searched and read all the post about ATF in the gear oil. It seems like all the DIRT RIDER.net are saying to use the ATF type F.
In a recent Motocross Action they say to use the GM type ATF because it has some fluids in it that make it grip the plates and not to use FORD ATF because it has some additives that make it slippery with poor gripping in the plates.
Isn't the Type F ATF the Ford style? I am thinking of trying the ATF fluids for the gear oil. I want to make sure I get the right one. Can someone tell me whcih is the best one to use.

thanks
97 moto

 

[Senior KX Rider]

I started running type F in my KX a couple months after I bought it. No problems with slippage here. :)

 

[TM-Frank]

97 Moto,

I am using ATF Dexron III (the GM spec stuff) in my TM 250 gear box for years now with no problems. It is the oil that TM recommends for the gear box. The TM clutch is identical to a Honda CR250R clutch btw.
A lot of DRNers use Type F and claim Dexron causes clutch slippage because of some friction enhancing additives that are contained in Type F but are missing in Dexron.
These guys have no problems with their clutches and I don't have any clutch probs. Logical conclusion (in my opinion): I doessn't matter which Type you use!

 

[JTT]

I too use Type F, but have used Dextron III as well with no problems. I think, as with most oils, it will depend largely on the particular application. Give it a try, if the Dextron slips, use the Type F. Others do not like ATF at all. As I said, it seems to work on some machines better than others, but I like it in my CR and my Sherco Trials bike.

 

[MikeT]

Dextron III, Type F, 10W-40, 20W-50.... I have tried them all, I don't really think it makes that much of a difference as long as you stay away from an oil with a friction modifier which is present in 5W-30 and 10W-30. Use whichever one of them makes your transmisson shift the best. Ofcourse this is all my personal opinion based on my experience. ;)

 

[Senior KX Rider]

Thats the way I see it. To each his own.

 

[JTT]

I am curious Mike T, what makes oil weight related to the addition of a friction modifier? I am not flaming you, just wondered where that info came from, as I was not aware that oil weight had anything to do with these additives.

 

[Jaybird]

The key is frequent change, no matter what you use.

 

[Luke Davey]

Is 10w30 alright ?

Mike T, you say to stay away from oils with friction modifiers like 10w30. Does all 10w30 oils have friction modifiers in them, if not how can I tell what ones do and don't. My manual says to use 10w30 and im a bit sceptic about changing to ATF or a differnt weight oil. I am also curious as to wether you can mix ATF with gear oil ?
Any help appreciated.

 

[Jaybird]

Luke, you shouldn't worry about using another fluid just because your manual suggests something. Manufacturers often do deals with lubricant suppliers and I bet if you read closely you'll find that the manual also recommends a specific brand of oil. It doesn't mean that no other products will be sufficient.
There are some great posts on this subject if you do a decent search/read. IMHO, there are no oils avaiable that will actually "hurt" your engine. Any oil or fluid will allow an engine to die if not changed often.

 

[MikeT]

Originally posted by JTT
I am curious Mike T, what makes oil weight related to the addition of a friction modifier? I am not flaming you, just wondered where that info came from, as I was not aware that oil weight had anything to do with these additives.

I read it on the bottle. I don't know why they don't put it in the heavier grades of oils. If you have a can of 5W-30, just turn it around and look for the star on the back, in it it will say "ENERGY CONSERVING" in all caps. It does not say that on 10W-40 or heavier. I'm not sure why, its just the way it is. You definately do not want to put an energy conserving oil in your clutch because it will cause it to wear out prematurely. Does that answer your question??

 

[MikeT]

Re: Is 10w30 alright ?

Originally posted by Luke Davey
Mike T, you say to stay away from oils with friction modifiers like 10w30. Does all 10w30 oils have friction modifiers in them, if not how can I tell what ones do and don't. My manual says to use 10w30 and im a bit sceptic about changing to ATF or a differnt weight oil. I am also curious as to wether you can mix ATF with gear oil ?
Any help appreciated.

I can't say ALL blends of 10W-30 have friction modifiers in them. The way you can tell if you are buying the oil at an auto store is to check the back of the bottle and look for the star. It will say "ENERGY CONSERVING" in all caps in the star. Turn a bottle of 5W-30 and a bottle of 10W-40 around and check it out. NOW, the oil you can get at the bike dealer, I have no idea what that has in it. To tell you the truth I have never bought gear oil from the dealer for my MX bike. As for mixing ATF with a different oil. It is never good practice to mix different types of oils together. You can drain your tranny and fill up with the other, no problem, just don't mix them. See what works best in your gear box. Some fluids will make your gearbox shift better than others. If you were out in the desert and the only thing you had was half ATF and half 10W-40 to get you home, Mix away! But how often do you ride in the desert?? Anyway, don't mix em' One of the fancy chemical experts around here could probably give you a real reason why. :D

 

[MikeT]

Originally posted by Jaybird
IMHO, there are no oils avaiable that will actually "hurt" your engine. Any oil or fluid will allow an engine to die if not changed often.

Ahh, Jaybird speaks the truth! :cool:

 

[Gary B.]

Jaybird- you are reading my mind. Some of these guys over-think things to death. I've used all sorts of oils in two-stroke trans over the years. Some may shift better, the clutch may work better with some, but none have ever damaged the bike.

 

[MXFastGuy]

I tried both types of ATF in a '00 CR250, and neither helped a slipping clutch one bit. I just carried extra clutch parts to the track in case I needed a quick fix.

 

[reynome]

If it is slipping on your cr there is something out of wear spec or adjusted wrong.

I have been running Type F for some time in my bikes without a problem. I have never tried any Dextron as I heard it had friction modifiers and could cause the plates to slip and get glazed.

 

[97 moto]

gear oil mxa recent issue

Thanks for all the input. I think I have nothing to worry about now. I appreciate all the info

97 moto

 

[JTT]

Originally posted by MikeT
I read it on the bottle. I don't know why they don't put it in the heavier grades of oils. If you have a can of 5W-30, just turn it around and look for the star on the back, in it it will say "ENERGY CONSERVING" in all caps. It does not say that on 10W-40 or heavier. I'm not sure why, its just the way it is. You definately do not want to put an energy conserving oil in your clutch because it will cause it to wear out prematurely. Does that answer your question??

Yes, thanks Mike. I will take a look at some in my shop...never noticed before.

Jaybird is right on, once again, particularly about the change intervals.

 

[SiCnTwIsTdYz]

it is true use GM ATF not ford i read this in a back issue a year or so ago in motocross action also, i wouldnt attempt it though i used golden spectro in my bikes for the past 3 1/2 years and its great gearbox oil (80w)

 

[02cr250r]

I use Honda Oil in the red squirt bottle. that stuff was made for cr's.

 

[SiCnTwIsTdYz]

yeah i useded that b4 02cr that honda trans oil itsvalso good stuff

 

[john stu]

oil

did anybody except for that last guy ever think of putting in the stuff the the manuel recomends, hp trans oil ,short for high-performance transmission oil ,it says right on the bottle "specialy formulated racing transmission oil for all honda cr models"" the ulimate racing transmission oil for honda cr and fourtrax 250r'S" ultra high film strenght and shear stability reduces transmission wear, high thermal stability prevents foaming and premature oil breakdown, anti friction additives allow smother shifting while minimizing drag and power loss, anti-shear additives increase clutch life and reduce clutch slippage"gee that stuff sounds like crapp to me i got an idea lets run automatic tranmission oil for cars its not a car or an automatic but its .99c cheaper a quart, cool and while i'm at it i think i'll run motor oil for a car as premix that stuff is way cheaper also and instead of fork oil im going to run antifreeze what is wrong with eveybody today why not just run what honda recomends why take the chance of running your new bike because dirt rider says you can get .00000000000001 horsepower from running atf

 

[Jaybird]

john stu, lots of folks have more experience changing oil than you've got years on ya pal. True, you won't go wrong using what the manufacturer recommends, but there are alternative fluids that are just as good performance wise, and considering cost, there are MANY better products that are sufficient. I don't recal anyone claiming a HP gain from ATF. I suggest you do a search and read up. Some good stuff if you can stay with it. Better yet, just keep on doing what you do, and until you have information of some sort that will show how folks are making mistakes using ATF or any oil for that matter, you be at ease mister. :) (ut oh...tm infringement)

 

[reynome]

Before you spout off John Stu, you may want to search on this subject. It has been mulled over by alot of experts in different fields associated with oils and their properties.

Its people like yourself who keep the manufacturers happy by buying thier high priced accessories. Some of which are not even as good.

 

[marcusgunby]

A testament to ATF as a gear oil.In 2000 i helped out a UK championship rider on a KTM125sx-we ran ATF F for over 100 hours.The piston broke eventually and the engine was stripped-no clutch wear-we put in some new alu plates-basket was still good.All gears fine.Dogs fine.Main bearings and crank were replaced as a matter of precaution.All gearbox bearings were kept.That bike went onto do at least another 50 hours of extreme use.He was harder on an engine that you would beleive-i have no mechanical sypathy at all but it made me wince to hear that thing screaming for each 45 minute session.It must have done about a million gearchanges.It had new ATF every ride.If you dont want to run it fine-no one wants you to if your not happy ,but you might be spending more than you need and on the KTMs we had better shifting in winter. :scream:

BTW you can run sythetic ATF in your forks/shocks and on ktms in the clutch-I personally would go out and buy a bottle of that KTM clutch fluid for $20 as it is obviously so much better-not