INCA

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Sep 1, 2003
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This thread is being started because the matter of rule changes should not be part of other threads covering different situations, events or what have you. My purpose here is to help in the process of rule changing, which may well happen if the right trees are dodged.
In the AMA D-14 Enduro rules as published in the February 2006 issue of District 14 News, Rule 30 states – “Rule changes can be submitted to the Enduro Chairman anytime throughout the year”. No problem here. What change is desired should be stated along with the reason for the change.
Rule 6 states – “Each club will be invited to attend at least one meeting to revise the rules each year”. This is where the process can be tricky. What constitutes a club and meeting are not further defined, while voting is not even mentioned. The biggest inequity is that we the riders, as individuals, have no say so at all in making a rule change. Without going into a lot of detail, here are three ways I know how things have been handled at the enduro division meeting at the annual sanctioning meeting in Lansing.
1. The schedule had already been worked out by phone, no clubs present, two people in the room, no meeting took place. When the rules were published, there was a change.
2. A rule change was read to those present, but not as written. Ensuing discussion did not cover the rule change. The change failed.
3. Three clubs present. One member each from two clubs and three from the third club. Three non-club members present not allowed to vote. Things went as to how the club with the three members voted and they stuck together.

It appears the riding number situation is the current target for change. It was random draw in 1979 when the Kalkaska trails were put in and the first five rows were given a bonus of some kind for having to break trail. It was tight enough there was no route sheet provided because it wouldn’t have done any good.

Where this goes from here is unknown. However, it should stay peaceful and respectful if any good is to come in the future.

Young Ted
 

fatherandson

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Ted,
Thanks for starting this thread. I think it is important to discuss proposed rule changes during the Summer. I do not think the process has worked well in the past. First of all, any rider should feel welcome to attend this meeting. I know one guy who had a proposed rule change for last year, was in Lansing on the morning of the meeting and did not attend. I know Tom Dunn would welcome a full room of enduro riders and clubs to attend the sanctioning meeting.
The attendance by the clubs has been limited to those in the lower pennisula of Michigan. D15 has their sanctioning meeting on the same day. So the schedule has been discussed in advance of the meeting. Last year the date of the Jack Pine was changed on the day of the meeting, but it took a lot of work to coordinate with the MI Hare Scrambles and D15 enduro schedules.
I do know the row selection will be discussed at the rules meeting. Jack Pine will be using the lottery system. We will see how it goes. I am going to suggest that all enduros offer a pre entry system and anyone who pays in advance should get a chance to give an indication of a group of row selections (32, 33, or 34 for example).

I also have a couple of other ideas for rules changes that I have been discussing with fellow riders. I feel the four stroke models have improved over the years and are competitive with the two stroke models. Our displacement classes have seen a smaller numbers of riders. I will be proposing the removal of the four stroke A and B classes. Other districts (D17 and D16) have already taken this action.
Our classes based on age (Vet, Senior and Super Senior) have many participants. I feel we should have a Super Senior A class in D14.

I look forward to discussing these ideas and other ideas for rule changes.
 

D.LEATHERS

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Jun 28, 2002
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Mike,
I Think Both You And Ted Have Started A Great Thread. As A Promoter/club At Ptr And Having Attended 20+ Years Of D-14 Sanction Meetings I Don't Think That The Promoters/clubs Should Have The Last Word/vote On Division Class And Rule Changes. As You Know Most Of The Time The Promoters/clubs Base Their Vote On What The Chairman Recommends Based On A Vote At The Banquet Or A Riders Meeting, Sometimes This Works Sometimes It Doesn't. I Do Know That In The Past I Have Had To Make Some Very Tough Decisions As A Rider And How Will It Affect The Culb That I Represent, Not Easy Decisions And Not Always The Most Popular Ones With The Riders. I Could Talk For Hours On End About This, I Just Thought I Would Shed Some Light On How Things Are Decided At The Sanction Meetings.
 

Fred T

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Jmho

I agree with Mike on maybe changing classes but it will be hard to sync with other districts in muti district events and at Nationals. But i agree that it would be nice to see those classes addressed. I think it is unfortuante that because of a small incident the row assignment may be changed-but what ever the riders like that should be the outcome. i like having all d 14 clubs post their pre entry form on their web site with the event flyer and take row selections based on "first come first served" with payment attached. I don't really support the lottery. for the simple reason that riders are more comfortable being at certain points in the race for their safety as well as the enjoyment of others. I for example like to stay out of the way of the AA guys and get a row after they have gone out so I don't hold them up plus it sucks to pull over a lot. I know some guys prefer to ride early and they should be allowed to.

I think that it is wonderful that riders are looking for late numbers at enduros held on state land indicating the amount and quality of the event trail being laid out. Thats a win for all of us.

I probably cannot make the meeting in Lansing but I have talked to the enduro Chairman and given him my opinion. He welcomes all your feedback but you have to call him or e mil him and let him know. He can print out the letters and they can be discussed at the meeting.

Long Live enduros!
 

KTM Mike

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I agree with Fred. If someone waaaaaay faster than me does not care to be in front of the AA guys...I know I dont either - I dont know that I would want a row in front of Fred (no offense!) for that matter, and certainly not in front of T-Bone :nener: I was pleasantly suprised that being in front of the A guys at Treetoppers was not a problem for me - I have learned to not let it bother me so much. But, I do recall my first enduro - Loose Moose 2001 - on row 7. I had a miserable time freaking out when ever someone came rippin up behind me. I am sure that about any newbie to this sport (unless they are accustomed to some other form of racing) would feel the same way.

So, FWIW - on the whole row selection topic. I dont think there really is a need to change the rule allowing riders to select their row...but, some boundries do need to be defined. As I see it, there were two "Real" issues at the last event, which perhaps have been lost:

1) Some riders (supposedly) had rows set aside, long before sign up originally started.
2) There were some (apparant) inconsistencies in how rows were being "held back" from being filled, compounding the appearance of #1.

To my pea brain - pretty easy to fix:

1) No Money, no row...period. You MUST be handing over the dough, be it through pre registration, or standing there inline when you are requesting your row.
2) ALL rows, no matter what (other than those reserved for A guys) must be open for selection as soon as registration opens
3) If you want to set aside a row for your buddy who is not there at the time of in person registration - you must pay for your buddy at that time. Set a limit as to the max # of spots a given person can have set aside to avoid abuse (I would say no more than 3 other than yourself).
4) All events must post on their flyers etc. the time registration opens - be it pre registration, or at the event. Under NO circumstances are any rows to be set aside or anyone considered registered etc. prior to that published time.

I think if those points were followed, there really could be no complaint.

On the topic of how rule are to be changed...I think we need to follow the rules as published! (is that overly simplistic perhaps?)

I for one, do appreciate the tons of hard work that go into making these enduro's happen. :cool: I do it for the fun of it, and because I really have come to respect and enjoy the many great people involved in the sport. I don't compete for serious points (I feel quite happy to simply not hour out!), i just want to have some fun. With that in mind, fact is, none of this will really matter for me - regardless of what happens, I will still show up each year to slow down all the fast guys behind me! :ride:
 

salgeek

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Oct 2, 2003
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Regarding the riding number situation - whatever the rule, I hope it includes the notion of zero tolerance for anyone seeking or getting favorable treatment.
 

INCA

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Mike S. - On your second 2 point, make that 'AA guys". Most of us know that's what you meant but those that don't will be 'lost'.

Now that several ideas are out, the next step is to put them in actual rule form. Since I started this thread, I'm willing to do that if so desired. Then they can be fine tuned, much the same as a carb or suspension.

Young Ted
 

KTM Mike

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INCA said:
Mike S. - On your second 2 point, make that 'AA guys". Most of us know that's what you meant but those that don't will be 'lost'.


Yep - correct...! Sorry for any confusion - I often lump those A and AA guys together....all blazing fast compared to me! (not that that takes much), so I tend to use A and AA terms interchangeably.
 

fatherandson

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Mike S. - good points on the row selections. We know that rule will be discussed.

Any other ideas? If you can not make the meeting in Lansing, I would suggest sending an email to Tom Dunn as your opinions can be read at the meeting. In fact, I may volunteer to take the role of reading those opinions.

I know the Hare Scramble division has a meeting before the banquet for the riders to voice an opinion on rule changes. As Dave mentioned these rule changes are voted on by the promoters. I am not sure if an Enduro meeting is possible, but I have asked Tom to mention proposed Enduro rule changes in his next article to promote more discussion and awareness of the proposals.
 

UP Magoo

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Since this seems to be going down the sign-up/row selection road, I'll toss in my $.02....

National Rules state "start position is determined by lottery." I'd like to see a modified lottery. I propose the way D-16 does it, with row selection by lottery, but if you want to ride with someone, one of you picks out of the hat, and you both get that row. You must both be paying/registering together, otherwise, you're each on your own.

AA riders still get their reserved row -- they've earned it!

With more Enduros changing to the "restart format," I think that drawing a row by lottery will add back the "unknown" element to the game. I, for one, really enjoyed the aspect of Enduro that made you think (that'd be TIMEKEEPING, kids), and liked the game between the rider and the promoter about creative check placement. That always led to some fun discussions! To paraphrase a somewhat famous quote about winning enduros: "It's not always the fastest rider that wins, sometimes it's the smartest rider that wins."

Whatever the outcome, I agree, we need enforcement of no reserving minutes without paid registration (given equal registration opportunity for all). If a position is available, it should be available PERIOD. No "holding back" of start positions for whatever reason.
 

bbarel

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UP Magoo said:
I propose the way D-16 does it, with row selection by lottery, but if you want to ride with someone, one of you picks out of the hat, and you both get that row. You must both be paying/registering together, otherwise, you're each on your own.

I think you should be allowed to draw your row and hold a minute on the same row for your buddy who will be arriving later.
 

UP Magoo

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bbarel said:
I think you should be allowed to draw your row and hold a minute on the same row for your buddy who will be arriving later.
I disagree; IMO holding minutes for unregistered riders is just plain wrong.
viagra-kingPE said:
I vote for EASY trophy girls.
No surprise there... :debil:
 
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fatherandson

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I just checked the D14 and did not see the meeting listed. However, it has been the first weekend in December for a number of years. At this time I would pencil in December 2nd and it has been located at the Midway Motor Lodge is Lansing (M43 and I96).

Magoo - nice modification to the quote. Please remember everybody has an opinion.
 

bbarel

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UP Magoo said:
I disagree; IMO holding minutes for unregistered riders is just plain wrong.

Ok, ok easy there yooper boy don't get your camo undies in a bunch now. Yes you are probably right. Dang all these strict rules stuff is going to inconvenient, but is what's right.

Then we should have pre-registration so guys who cannot arrive early can still register with their buds (in advance) and get on the same minutes.
 

KTM Mike

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Define "unregistered rider"?

Let's say you wanted me on your minute (fat chance huh?), I wont arrive until late, you get in line and register yourself- and pay for me, a # is set aside with my name on the back of it. Perhaps it should be "unpaid for riders"?

Fact is, even with pre registration, you still have to sign the AMA release etc. etc....so not all the paper work is filled out. Maybe go as far as to require the rider paying for his buddy to fill out a form similar in content to what is used for pre registration...it really is not any different then than pre registration, except the "pre registration" is happen just a day or less before the event. Sorta, on site, "pre registration". Set a (low) limit as to the number of people one person can do this for to help control any potential abuse.

PLUS...have all events allow for pre-registration.....
 

TCTrailrider

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Seems to me that alot of riders like to put a group together for there minute. Part of the fun is regrouping with your buds several times throughout the event. I think this is a good thing, probably increases participation, and thats a good thing. Rules need to be fair but participation #s also need to increase, lets find a solution that will help on both ends.
 

D.LEATHERS

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Jun 28, 2002
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Father And Son,
As You Mentioned Mike, There Is A Meeting For The Harescrambles Division Before The Banquet, We Also Have A Pre-sanction Meeting For Mx A Month Or Two In Advance Of The Regular Sanction Meeting In Dec. It Probably Would Be Very Easy To Set This Up For The Enduro Division Also On The Same Night As The Banquet, Since They Are Held Together In The Same Place. If There Are Any Issues That Need To Be Addressed Between The Two Divisions They Be Discussed At That Time. The Majority Of The Serious Riders Will Be At The Banquet,and Those Who Are Not Can Put It In Writing. This Seems To Work Well For The Harescrambles Division.

Dave Leathers
 
Jul 9, 2005
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FWIW - on the whole row selection topic. I dont think there really is a need to change the rule allowing riders to select their row...but, some boundries do need to be defined. As I see it, there were two "Real" issues at the last event, which perhaps have been lost:

1) Some riders (supposedly) had rows set aside, long before sign up originally started.
2) There were some (apparant) inconsistencies in how rows were being "held back" from being filled, compounding the appearance of #1.

To my pea brain - pretty easy to fix:

1) No Money, no row...period. You MUST be handing over the dough, be it through pre registration, or standing there inline when you are requesting your row.
2) ALL rows, no matter what (other than those reserved for A guys) must be open for selection as soon as registration opens
3) If you want to set aside a row for your buddy who is not there at the time of in person registration - you must pay for your buddy at that time. Set a limit as to the max # of spots a given person can have set aside to avoid abuse (I would say no more than 3 other than yourself).
4) All events must post on their flyers etc. the time registration opens - be it pre registration, or at the event. Under NO circumstances are any rows to be set aside or anyone considered registered etc. prior to that published time.

On the topic of how rule are to be changed...I think we need to follow the rules as published! (is that overly simplistic perhaps?)


Exactly.
-E. Briggs-#23
 

salgeek

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Oct 2, 2003
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SGJ_Johansen said:
No matter how the rules read you will always have someone crying in their beer :yell:

Next subject


pshaw - I've been ridding for a LONG time, ain't never raised an issue in D14 - ever! Except this time, when someone was SO bold they came to the sign-up table and reserved numbers for others in front of several. No crying here, just concerned that this may detract from the sport. No offense intended; but, please try to accept others concerns as legitimate.

Sorry for the recap - but I feel like I have to defend my ground on this one.
 
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