Death of the 125 - what will be the last 125 year?

muddy226 · Nov 22, 2003

I reckon the last 125mxer will be 06 for the 07season, though it may be sooner depending on sales and whether or not they all have a good 250f. The die was cast as soon as the sanctioning bodies allowed Fs the unfair capacity advantage of double capacity, when to be fair it should about 66% larger, not 100%. I think the powers that be ( manufactures etc ) decided that we should all ride 4s, and the goalposts will be moved to a position which ensures that.
Its widely believed that the MX world champ tracks were made more open and less technical last year to better suit 4 stroke power.

The same has happened in GP, where the 500cc smokers were asked to compete with 1000cc , and predictably enough couldn't and we end up with big H top of the heap again, though the others may catch up sometime.

As for which is best for MX I agree with one or two others in this thread that the 4s is probably faster over a moto for most because it is less tiring to keep up a good lap time. An ex Brit champ told me that a CRF450 was worth 3 - 4 seconds a lap for him, so I reckon for me it would be more like 10 secs !
However, I still like my 2000 Suzuki, and if changing would have a tough decision between 2004 RM250, or a 4 stroke. If there was a 375cc four stroke in a 125 frame the choice would be easier. Anyhow, its irrelevant cos I can't afford to change anyway, so the 250 and I will just grow old gracefully together, until we make like the dinosaur.

mxer842 · Nov 22, 2003

250f's are fair in the 125 class, they make the same horsepower!!!! the only difference is that a four-stroke makes that power for a lot longer. most of the 2-banger engines are from the mid 90's while the new four-strokes are all-new with all the new technology. if the manufactuers want to have a 2stroke compete with a fourstroke then their motors need to be updated. so ask yourself this, would you invest hundreds of millions of dollars to update a bike that is just going to be illegal anyways? besides will 2 strokes be illegal for closed-course competition because i would take a 2stroke anyday in a sx race.

muddy226 · Nov 22, 2003

Originally posted by mxer842
250f's are fair in the 125 class, they make the same horsepower!!!! the only difference is that a four-stroke makes that power for a lot longer. most of the 2-banger engines are from the mid 90's while the new four-strokes are all-new with all the new technology. if the manufactuers want to have a 2stroke compete with a fourstroke then their motors need to be updated. so ask yourself this, would you invest hundreds of millions of dollars to update a bike that is just going to be illegal anyways? besides will 2 strokes be illegal for closed-course competition because i would take a 2stroke anyday in a sx race.

Well, no, I wouldn't invest millions, I would let the 2 stroke quietly fade away, as they are doing. If the manufacturers want to make the 2s competetive with 4 they don't need to spend anything, just run similar ccs. Unfortunately I don't see anyone having a choice what to run in SX in future.

Uchytil · Nov 23, 2003

Unless the EPA does a 180 we all can expect to see the end of the 2-stroke, not just the 125 class. It's not about what we think, it's not like we are going to the elections and casting our ballet. I said it in mpost in the Flame Board - I'm keeping my 125's and when I'm 90 (I'm halfway there) I can fire them up while kids are flying by on their saucers, ha ha! I am in the boat buisness and have seen 90% of outboard equipped boats change to 4-stokes in the past few years. One reason was ease of maintenance, not laws. 2006 unless there is a major takeover in the EPA and other Gov. orgs by sportspersons.

Moto Squid · Nov 23, 2003

Originally posted by Yogurt
I love my 04 CRF250. It's all stock and much faster and easier to ride than my very moded, punched out CR133.

ditto :thumb:

250f...$5800, 125 two stroke $5000 + $$$mods, going fast sounding like a giant fart...priceless :laugh:

mxer842 · Nov 23, 2003

that only proves my point, the factory teams poor thousands of dollars of r&d into their bikes to make them as fast as they can be and so now they can smoke a 4stroke(or vice versa depends on who's riding). this proves that the 2strokes can easily be as fast as the 4banger. but since the epa is cracking down on emissions the big five doesn't want to piss their money away on a dead horse. as of now the 4bangers are faster than the 2strokes, i have ridden both and the 4's are faster, but not because they are better but because they have brand new engines while most of the 125's haven't had a new engine since the mid-90's.

motometal · Nov 23, 2003

the sad fact is that if they put half as much engineering and development money in the 2 strokes in the last 5 years as they have in the four strokes, overall we would have a much better bike (there would be no comparison).  Just look at outboards...they are getting upwards to 300 hp out of a very compact package with minimal emissions and good fuel economy.  But, due to the econonazis, those will all be 4 strokes soon as well.

as far as the 125s go, even if they have no plans to continue engine developement, why not just continue marketing the 125 as the same old engine in the latest 250F chassis?  I suppose the frame would have to be a bit different to fit the engine...

I always thought learning how to clutch and shift to keep the engine in the sweet spot was part of the fun and the skill of learning how to ride.  At the rate we're going, maybe not-bikes will be like snowmobiles (and certain quads), any idiot can gas it and go.

Combat767 · Nov 24, 2003

I think 2-strokes will be around until 2008 or later myself, depending on 4-stroke development. Pretty much everyone in the 125 class seems to be switching to a 250F, but I dont' see the same people grabbing 450F's just as quick. It seems indoors the bikes to have are a 250F in the 125 class and a 250 2-stroke for the 250 class. Until they knock a few more pounds off of a 450 and make the power a little more managable, the 250 2-strokes will probably be around awhile. The 125's days might be numbered. If you look at Arenacross, I see Demuth jumped back down from his 450 to a 250. Reed and Vuillemen are dropping back down to 250's for SX, and I still don't know what Ferry is riding, but I thought I had read somewhere he's moving to a 2-stroke indoors as well. I haven't been to an AX race yet, (Rockford is in a couple weeks), but it looks like a 4-stroke, 2-stroke combo is the indoor package to have right now.
I know 3 A riders in Northern Illinois that rode Honda 450F's at the outdoor local races for one year and now they're back on 2-strokes. I think one of them just wasn't comfortable riding the 4-stroke, and the other two just couldn't afford to rebuild a 4-stroke 450 every time they blew the motor up. It's their own fault for not keeping up the maintenance, but the racers I've seen are much more shoddy with maintenance. It's cheaper for them to maintain, race, and make some money on a 2-stroke. It'll be interesting to see how much 4-stroke bike development progresses in the next 5 - 7 years. I sure could see a specialty 4-stroke in the 250 class just for SX, but it may be more R&D than anyone wants to spend, but if someone wanted to build a 350ish 4-stroke that was as light and snappy as a 250 2-stroke, maybe there would be a market considering the indoor series seems to be growing faster than the outdoors, but that's a whole other thread to start. :laugh:

2smoke · Nov 24, 2003

Hey GWCRIM my first bike was a clapped out 74 model (with the green stripe ?)......I painted it red...from a spray can of course. But that underslung pipe with no silencer.........what a noise.........pure offensive noise. Revving up to take off (no reeds boys no low end) used to scare the sh#t out of me as a yound teenager.

mxer842 · Nov 25, 2003

i would actually say that the two are even, the four-stroke may have the two-stroke beat not in the power department but the power delivery department but at the same time the 2strokes are lighter and a litttle easier to turn versus the weight of a 4banger, at the end of a lap i would say the two are the same.

70 marlin · Nov 25, 2003

The writing is on the wall. I will keep one of my two smokes forever! There's just no felling like a crisply jetted two stroke hit. But my new bike is an RFS four stroke. And I am much faster! Not just because it’s a four stroke. But everything on it is better than the old bikes I've owned!

gwcrim · Nov 25, 2003

Originally posted by 2smoke
Revving up to take off (no reeds boys no low end) used to scare the sh#t out of me as a yound teenager.

I'll never forget my first ride on that bike. I was about 13 or 14 and I thought they'd strapped handlebars on a rocketship!

super rat · Nov 25, 2003

Thanks mxer 842. Thats all I'm trying to say. The day that I get beat by a guy on a thumper because he was on a thumper and not a better rider, you will be the first to know. Don't hold your breath though because I think it will be a long time before that happens.

nephron · Nov 25, 2003

It's amazing how much emotion this topic generates.

I would hope they both persist. For instance, how do we know this emissions issue won't become null and void like the energy crisis? 390hp bb vettes have now been replaced by 450 sb ones (ZO6). And if you want to go farther, you've got 750hp twin turbo vettes, etc. Back in the day (circa 72-76), no way in heck you'd see anything more radical than a Pacer.

Add the possibility that 2 strokes disappear, but only for a while, as around that time Rev! has their DFI2 stroke bikes out. This regenerates interest in the 2 cycle, as a lot of the old die hards have either ridden less or dropped out @ the disappearance of the 2 stroke, and you've got a comeback.

I hope they both do well. If I had a guess, I'd say 07 because I think the rest of the country will lag a year behind the upcoming 06 Kali emission specs.

DougRoost · Nov 25, 2003

Yes, Honda has said they have R&D plans for the next 10 years in 2 strokes. I'm not surprised Honda dealers aren't asking for 125 2strokes this year -- they're now getting the CRF250 and it's the hot new thing.

Ken Faught's story in the front of the latest Dirt Rider mag notes more and more people are returning from 4 strokes to 2 strokes. I think a good chunk of the 4 stroke popularity is due to manufacturer and magazine hype, though the dyno graphs do show the flat torque curve of the thumpers. However, the 125 and 250 class were all won by 2 strokes again this year, both in SX and outdoors. I agree it's not fair that the 4 strokes were given double the displacement of 2 strokes in the 125 class...maybe the AMA will alllow the 125 strokes to be bumped up to 150 or 175cc later.

kdxtodd · Nov 25, 2003

a yz 150 or 175 or yz275 or 300 would be absolutly amazing. But the ama would never allow that to happen. We would see the death of the four stroke motocrosser again if that happened. I hope the ama does raise the displacment limit for 2-strokes, just to even it out for the average consumer, not the factories, their 2-smokers are still faster anyways.

pyrofreak · Nov 26, 2003

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, you can't take away the 2-smokers, NEVER!!!!!!

pyrofreak · Nov 26, 2003

If the 125s do drop out then it looks like the jump from an 85/100 to a 250 will be a bit sudden(for kids with the diehard 2-stroke lover parents). I bet gear/helmet sales will have a significant increase when the 125s disappear.

BEEF706 · Nov 26, 2003

Of course in a couple of years they will be coming off of 150cc four strokes, so the jump may not be that huge :p

Jon K. · Nov 26, 2003

Originally posted by BEEF706
Of course in a couple of years they will be coming off of 150cc four strokes, so the jump may not be that huge :p

What's the hold up on that, anyway?

BEEF706 · Nov 26, 2003

May be having valve train problems at 20,000 rpm :o

DougRoost · Nov 26, 2003

Originally posted by BEEF706
May be having valve train problems at 20,000 rpm :o

Aw, c'mon.  They're already putting e-start on them and EFI and catalytic converters are next, so why not add a compressor while they're at it?  Then they can run the compressed-air-actuated valves like the CART and F1 guys do.  That will get them well over 16,000 RPM!

Serioously, everyone's been talking about how all the R&D is going into 4 stroke engines rather than 2 strokes.  However, that's only partially true.  What you're seeing by most manufacturers in 4 stroke dirt bikes is mostly them reusing their street bike technology on off-road bikes.  And this makes sense given the technology race and the R&D dollars (yen?) spent there.  That's where the ground-breaking 1998 YZM400 5-valve Yamaha engine came from and the other's designs are leaning heavily on their street bike programs, too (Honda's new Unicam is the exception).  That trend, coupled with the EPA's steady march, is why EFI and cats aren't far off.  So if you want to know what technology is in store for future dirt bikes, I suggest you keep an eye on the street bike/superbike scene.

BEEF706 · Nov 26, 2003

Yep there is a lot of crossover, and I can't wait to see what the manufacturers bring out next. Fought asked the question how much better can dirt bikes get? I will enjoy finding out. I might miss the 2 stroke, but I'll miss it alot less on a 200 lb 40 hp 300 cc 4 stroke. :thumb:

TrailDale · Nov 26, 2003

Imagine if Kawasuki took the soon-to-be-abandoned 125 MX platform and dropped the KDX motors in. One last Hurrah for the KDX - with a real MX frame-fork-shock and under 210 lbs. Heck, I'd buy a couple and have them around for the rest of my riding days. By that time, 2 stroke oil should be REALLY cheap. It would be a shame to just scrap a perfectly good 125 MX platform and not let it cross over to a trail bike - its a free technology upgrade.

mxer842 · Nov 27, 2003

yamaha has developed a 4stroke mini bike but is waiting for the AMA to finalize the displacement rules for the 80 class to release it since they dont want to waste R&D money on a bike and then have the AMA make some off the wall rule.

Death of the 125 - what will be the last 125 year?

When do you think the big 4 (CR, YZ, KX, RM) will produce their last 125cc 2-strokes?

2004

2005

2006

2007

2008 or later

The 125cc 2-stroke will stick around for at least 10 more years

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