Death of the 125 - what will be the last 125 year?

[osheen]

In the 125 class horsepower is of the utmost importance. More power is always a good thing in the tiddler class. So I believe the 250F is clearly at an advantage over the 125 despite being heavier. (Yeah, I know, peak numbers are about the same but the 250F is a lot easier to ride.) I think the lack of sales will kill the 125 before the EPA does.

In the 250 class not many people can really use any more power than a 250 2 stroke produces. So any increase that a 450F might have is negated because most guys don't even use the power they have. Especially in the lower amateur ranks. In the 250 class quality matters more than sheer quantity of power. It just depends on what you want and your riding style for which bike is best for you in this class. Look at the top national riders. A lot of guys are swapping back and forth which would indicate that as fast as they are, they don't even know for sure which is best. I don't think the 250 is going away anytime soon.

After owning many 250s and two 250Fs I bought a YZ450F and hated it. It had too much power and weight. I just couldn't come to terms with it for many reasons. I wanted a replacement for a 250 2 stroke and what I got was a replacement for a 500 2 stroke. I quickly returned to a YZ250 and love it. It just fits me. There is a big gap between a 250F and a 450F. I would just love to see a 350 4 stroke. That would be a replacement for a 250 ring ding.

One thing that is for sure, The thing that will kill all dirt bikes is NOISE. The NOISE of a 4 stroke is beyond ridiculous. I was riding at a local arena the other day and I couldn't even hear a 2 stroke right in front of my face over a 4 stroke clear over on the other side of the arena. I don't get it. the biggest thing the public hates about dirt bikes is NOISE and look what everyone has done. Here we are trying to figure out how to reduce exhaust emissions when our biggest problem is NOISE emissions. NOISE is our biggest killer. The sad part is, look how easy it is to make a bike quieter. All you have to do is put a bigger/heavier muffler on and they can be XR200 quiet. So what if everyone has to lose 5 HP and gain 5 lbs. It's better than not riding at all. Being a bike lover I don't mind a little NOISE but this is just pathetic. I just can't believe that the bike makers and aftermarkets continue to produce loud bikes. Don't they realize no place to ride = no bike sales= no aftermarket sales. Yet people are waiting in line to buy a $750 100+ decibel carbon fiber exhaust. I don't get it. (sorry for getting off on a tangent)

 

[DirtRyder03]

Originally posted by coleman
It seems like 250/450 is more fair as the four strokes are not quite double the size. 125/250 is a little unfair imo.

if it wasnt fair, than 2 stroke riders like stewart, and Rc wouldnt be still dominating the big 4 strokes.............and as far as sales most people dont know what there getting into wene they buy that brand new 450 that theve heard so much good about, and i know alot of people that ended up selling the 450 and buying a nice 250 with the money because ther lap times were getting slower................

 

[motometal]

Very well said regarding the noise issue.  The truth is, far too many people have troube even worrying about whether or not they will have a place to ride next month, let alone next year or 10, 50, 100 years from now. 

The four strokes have definitely brought out of the woodwork several folks with the "Harley" mentality, the big ego "hey look at me and my cool shiny stuff" mentality.  Also the "if my bike is loud, people will think i'm cool...and if they don't like it, they can f*^& off!" mentality.

Don't think for a minute that i'm even approaching trying to stereotype all four stroke riders, that would be idiotic.  But I think all of us see at least a few folks at the local riding areas fitting the description in the paragraph above.  The new bikes with the super loud slip-ons are just enabling these people to be idiots, giving us a bad rap and causing riding areas to disappear one by one.

 

[osheen]

thanks for the back up motometal.

 

[Okiewan]

Also the "if my bike is loud, people will think i'm cool...and if they don't like it, they can f*^& off!" mentality.

PLEASE! Don't tell me the same thing doesn't apply to the same people on 2-strokes! The "my bike is faster cause it louder" thing has been going on forever. The number of strokes makes NO difference, idiots are idiots.

Reading this thread is sad ... it seems the enviro nazis has successfully created a split in the community.

 

[DougRoost]

Originally posted by Okiewan

Reading this thread is sad ... it seems the enviro nazis has successfully created a split in the community.

Yes, I'm afraid they have through getting both the EPA and the AMA on board to support their agenda....by doing as an earlier poster said and moving the goalposts to achieve the desired result. 

Noise is a big, big reason people hate dirt bikes in park-type areas and they will do all sorts of things to rationalize their feelings to get their desired results (i.e- endangered species, erosion, safety, etc.) .  But in the end it's about politics, not logic, so if you truly care, join the AMA and fight back!

 

[motometal]

Okie, so true regarding the "split in the community".  And far too many of us are just giving in, not putting up any kind of a fight.  Just buying a four stroke is like placing a vote, which (using a slippery slope mentality) could eventually lead to more restrictions, fewer riding areas. 

FACT: The average four stroke mx bike, stock, is significantly louder than it's two stoke couterpart.  So when Jimbo decides to get an aftermarket pipe (to supposedly add 10 hp and mucho bling-bling factor), chances are it will be even louder yet!

FACT: Noise is one primary reasons we lose riding areas (if not #1).

Yes, the two strokes have their equivalent noise makers with the shorty silencers.  BUT, if your riding areas or tracks are anything like mine, you will have to admit that the overall noise level is much higher now than it was even 2 years ago.  I remember the first race I attended (years ago) with a YZ400 in the mix.  You could hear the YZ all the way around the track, and the other 15 bikes were faint in the background.

We can blame some of this on the aftermarket companies and the magazines.

 

[Rich Rohrich]

Originally posted by motometal

FACT: Noise is one primary reasons we lose riding areas (if not #1).

Do you have any actual data to support your facts on land closing or the audible components in the noise coming from different engines and how it compares to the threshold of human hearing? Or should we just assume it's a fact that you are pulling these facts out of your :moon: ?

Just another inquiring mind that owns lots of different motorcycles.

 

[muddy226]

It is a fact that four stroke mx bikes are percieved to be noisier than two strokes, and I think that most people attending or riding meets would agree. In addition, the frequency of the four strokes exhaust note carries further than a two stroke, and these two facts combine to create greater "nuisance".

For the most part I like the sound of both types, but sometimes when following a 450 with aftermarket "silencer" it almost hurts my ears, and that is through a crash hat. During last season some clubs actually put in the regulations that after market silencers on 4 strokes would not be allowed, lest they lose use of their facility, but of course it wasn't long before "clever" riders were presenting at scrutineering with legitimate silencer and then changing before the race. This practise has resulted in the fear that clubs will have to spend more on noise metering, and up go the costs again.

The best way forward is self regulation by manufacturers and others involved, which of course involves the application of concerted common sense.

In this country speedway bikes ( high compression 500 cc singles ) are scrupulously restricted to 98dba and have been for some years. Although IMO the spectacle is considerably reduced as a result, the speedway clubs are commercial organisations and won't risk closure. However, it is a level playing field, and so riders have no complaint at the loss of a little power through the exhaust restriction. I don't see the environmentalists who complain about the small amount of pollution from 2 strokes and seem to be winning the battle to make them extinct will take too kindly to their replacement with noise polluting 4 strokes.

 

[motometal]

Rich, I gotta ask, do you really disagree with my post, or are you just wanting to be argumentative?  Why question my statements and sources of information if you know they are true?  So the earth is flat and smoking will make us live longer?  Ok.

Here's my attempt at providing more support to my previous statements, but I suspect this is nothing more than repeating what most of us already know.

I have personally seen many riding areas come and go throughout my 23 years of riding.  Most of the areas were shut down due to noise, zoning, or liability issues.  In some cases, there were no lawsuits, but liability BECAME an issue when anti-dirt bike citizens were annoyed with the noise, and used liability or zoning as an excuse to shut down the track.  Not too many folks care what's going on at the neighbor's acreage if they can't hear it.  For what it's worth, most of these tracks and riding areas closed before new-generation four strokes were popular. 

Some folks don't want to face the fact that our latest generation of mx bikes are hurting our sport.  I'm just trying to open a few eyes to what's really going on the local level.  Maybe I live in an island, and things are totally different here than they are in RICHland.  Please let me know if this is the case. 

What's my solution?  On a personal level, make sure either your bike is reasonably quiet, or is only ridden in areas where you are sure no one is bothered.  If your bike is loud, this better be MILES, not blocks from the nearest houses.

Oh yeah, the sound level comparison issue.  I have seen a few magazine shootouts with the sound level listed.  Not surprisingly, the Japanese four strokes come out at least a few decibels higher than the two strokes, with stock exhaust.  Yes, there are many ways to measure this, with as many potential results.  Personal experience: at my local riding area, when sitting on top of a hill about a mile from the track, I can hear the four strokes riding the track on a regular basis, but rarely (if ever) can I hear a two stroke.  This may not be very scientific, Rich, but it's reality.

It's not fair to blame the equipment (our bikes and exhaust), it's the individuals making the choices that are in control of our sport's future.  Some of us (the people making, using, and condoning loud exhaust systems) are making  choices that will contribute to severe limitations to where and/or how we will be able to ride in the future.

Maybe eventually, we won't actually be able to ride, we can all just sit around and argue about what happened, and who is to blame. :|

Currently my garage houses "mixed company" as well...3 two strokes and 1 four stroke.

 

[motometal]

Stopped at one of our dealerships yesterday.  The STARTING PRICE on a new '03 YZ125 or CR125 is $3999!

 

[Rich Rohrich]

Originally posted by motometal
Rich, I gotta ask, do you really disagree with my post, or are you just wanting to be argumentative?  Why question my statements and sources of information if you know they are true? 

I get annoyed when smart people make generic unproven statements to support tenuous arguments.

I'll be the first to admit my personal knowledge of sound testing is fairly weak, I only did it for a short time as part of my work. In the time I spent testing it became apparent to me that it's a pretty misunderstood topic and most of what gets printed is misinformation at best. Four-strokes produce a different type (frequency as well as amplitude) of sound than two-strokes so the perception of NOISE isn't as cut and dried as some would have you believe. I won't debate the point that the aftermerket is filled with poorly designed exhaust systems that do more harm than good in the long run.

Whether or not noise is the reason riding areas get closed is unclear to me. Most of the tracks that I have seen close were a direct result of $$$. Housing developments, shopping centers and stripmines are far more profitable than charging a couple of hundred dirtbikers a few bucks to ride on your land. There are an awful lot of car tracks (oval and dragstrips) that sit in fairly populated areas that find a way to keep operating in spite of the noise they produce (which is substantial).

Regular people hated dirtbikes and tracks were closing long before the YZF and CRF came along, and all the db limits in the world won't change that. Being concious of your surroundings and how your riding effects others is just common sense for most of us and it's fairly clear that taunting the non-riding public will cost us all. Going out of your way to annoy them by running the local trails or power lines with some ear splitting exhaust system is pretty foolish , but save the weak-ass "four-strokes and the noise they make are the root cause of track closures" argument for your non-riding friends. I'm sure they'll be happy to swallow it whole. ;)

 

[motometal]

If you study my posts more closely, you will see that I didn't actually say four strokes were the root cause of track closures.  I said that it was the noise, and obviously four strokes, on the average, are making more of that.  If nothing changes, as time passes we will see the effects.  I believe Dick Burleson made similar comments regarding this issue at a recent interview.  Almost all of my friends ride, but most of those who do (several of whom own and ride four strokes) agree about the noise issue.  They run the stock exhaust.

Rich, I totally agree regarding the sound level tests.  My judgements are based on perceived noise levels...just listening to the bike.  I think part of the inconsistency issue with noise levels relates the the two stroke's power valve.  The two stroke engine is somewhat quieter if the sound level is measured at an engine speed below that which forces the power valve open. Consequently, a novice rider on a CR250, for example, will probably be relatively quiet, because he isn't revving it up much.  The same rider on a 450F will make more noise every time he twitches his throttle hand.  Conversely, comparing the sound level when a pro rider is on either bike would show less of a contrast. 

Also, many of the sound level tests are done in nuetral at a certain rpm.  So throttle opening is minimal.  What happens when the bike is running at the same rpm under a load at full throttle?  For one thing, there would be way more noise from the air box, and different bikes would behave differently one way or the other.  So some of these tests aren't representative or real-world riding conditions.

What's really sad, is that the new bikes aren't really all that emissions friendly.  There's no smog pump, no catalytic converter, no egr valve, no fuel injection with closed loop system, and it's open season on jetting.  If the modern four stroke mx bike was a car, it would be a '69 Camaro (and they may have even had some rudimentary emission controls).  Ever follow one of those old cars with your windows down?  And if they put all of that emission control crap on the bike, it would be so heavy it probably wouldn't be much fun to ride and the price would go way up.  Even in it's present state, is the modern four stroke still more emissions friendly?  Probably, depending how it's measured and how the subject 2 stroke was jetted.  But why go through all of this hassle of redevelopement, etc. if all we are doing is "marginally" reducing emissions on a vehicle that contributes a seemingly insignificant quantity of any emissions to the atmosphere in the first place?

I still don't know what tenuous means...better look that one up :laugh:

 

[Rich Rohrich]

Originally posted by motometal
If you study my posts more closely, you will see that I didn't actually say four strokes were the root cause of track closures. 

You are absolutely correct, but in the course of those posts you have gone out of your way to imply it. In this case I guess I'm as guilty as you as in terms of stretching the point. ;)

To be frank, I don't generally expect lucid arguments or even a shred of fact from the usual horde of mouth-breathing luddites that tend to jump on the bandwagon in these threads. In your case I guess my expectations are a bit higher. :thumb:

 

[DougRoost]

I've read all about how they sound test motorcycles, and have read results from the state of Michigan on the many bikes they've tested with stock and aftermarket exhausts (2 and 4 strokes). Still, I'm no expert. However, I know a lot more than the average joe (or sheila) who just concludes "those things are too damned loud" because they can hear them a mile away. There is no doubt the 4 stroke noise carries a lot further and some of these systems even hurt my ear when I've ridden a thumper (the PC4 on a YZF comes to mind). But we all need to monitor our own bikes since the frequency of the 2 stroke noise may be more annoying to your average neighbor.

 

[mxer842]

ok ladies lets stop bickering, we all know that the noise isn't the reasoning our riding areas are being shut down, its the excuse used for to shut them down. come on, our bikes could be quieter there is no denying that, but if they were we all know that the enviromentalists would complain about something else.

 

[motometal]

so, you ask that we stop "debating", yet you just add fuel to the fire.

The riding areas i'm referring to aren't being shut down by environmentalists!  I'm not talking about Yellowstone Park here, i'm talking about small motorcycle parks run by cities, acreages, abondoned railroad right-of-ways, etc.  It's ideal when these riding areas are out in the middle of nowhere, but unfortuately they tend to be within earshot of people who don't particularly like to hear droning engines when they sit in the front lawn on a summer say sipping lemonade.  And as much as I hate to say it, I might feel the same way.

Let me ask you this, if your neighbor had a stock car, what would bother you more, the fact that he had it, or the fact that he started it up late at night keeping you awake?

We've all hear the saying "out of sight out of mind".  I guess this is like "out of ear out of mind".

 

[super rat]

We have a track here in Colorado, Milliken, that is under attack by the srounding neighbors because of the noise.

 

[muddy226]

Well, I guess these noise issues are the same the world over, I know of a track where the owners fought a 4-5 year battle with the local authority in order to get permission to remain open, and the issue was mainly noise, the track is now surrounded by earth banks, tall trees etc., in order to get the noise to a level at which it ceases to be an issue which could be used as a reason for closure. This track is next to a stock car circuit, and directly under the flight path of the largest USAF base in Europe! ( Sometimes when going over the tabletop you are distracted by a Galaxy or similar taking off over your head ). Whilst this tale doesn't actually contain any scientific facts about noise, it does illustrate that noise is a major factor, and IMO is THE major factor for objectors ( understanably ) and it would behove all concerned to take note and reduce the noise to a more acceptable level. At this time the main noise culprits are high revving 4 stroke singles, and so it would seem obvious what needs to be done.

 

[mxer842]

muddy, you just proved my point. you guys have planes flying over and stock cars driving right next to you and the 4stroke noise is what they complain about? this is just the pot calling the kettle black.

motometal, yes it would bother me if that guy started that car up in the middle of the night, but we dont ride in the middle of the night anyways.

 

[DougRoost]

Okay, to put this thread back on topic, ya'll should go and read the CRF250R vs. CR125R comparison by Steve Lamson in the latest edition of DirtRider. Good comparo, some cool pics, and a logical conclusion.

At the end he raises a point on a new 2004 AMA rule on fuel consumption which is a further moving of the goalposts to achieve the desired result.

 

[XRpredator]

heh, get this if you don't think the deathknell of the two stroke is upon us:
http://www.racerxill.com/pages/news/news_122903.cfm

the part I'm talkin' about:

Last but certainly not least, will be a race whose time has come. The prolific development of the four stroke motocross machines spurred on by ever tightening environmental restrictions have unfortunately started the sun setting on the best days of two stroke motocrossers.

In their honor Vintage Iron we will host the inaugural TWO STROKE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS June 27th. The event will become a part of the VINTAGE IRON WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP weekend and will pay tribute to all mighty two stroke machines from their birth in the 60’s to today’s mechanical marvels, in a variety of classes

 

[Okiewan]

Reading this thread would make one wonder if 2-stroke noise has ever been a problem, lol. It didn't start with 4-strokes. If all MX bikes checked-in at 12 db, there would still be complaints, by the same people. Too much traffic, don't like the smell, too many people getting hurt, too many of those crazy dirtbikers hanging around, whatever, they'll always come-up with something. Meanwhile, Mr. Complainer hops in his dual'd Chevy pick-up for a grocery run and gets passed by some accountant who's playing lonewolf on his straight piped hog.

 

[super rat]

Come on guys!!! Your not saying that those things are not WAY louder that 2 strokes are you? I have missed shifts on the start because I can't hear my own bike. I never had that happen until 4strokes started becoming all the rage. I can remember when the first 250f came out around 00 or 01. My buddy got one and put a deposit down on one. I rode his with an after market pipe and the thing was stupid loud. You could hear him out pounding out laps and that thing was BOOMING, from the parking lot. If someone was doing laps on a 2 stroke you could hear a faint buzz from the parking lot. After I rode his 250f a few times I called my dealer and switched my money over to a 125. I felt like a jackass ridding around on that thing, it was WAY louder and no faster. If you guys like thumpers good but don't ignore the problems with them, Mx 842 get up to milliken this year because it may be the last year we will have that track. Have any of you guys been to a 4stroke national? Yeah they are no louder. HAHAHA

 

[Okiewan]

No one is saying they aren't louder. Are they?
Not sure who you are arguing with, but that's nothing new :laugh: