Death of the 125 - what will be the last 125 year?

[motometal]

I think it was a bad call to put the displacement limit where it is.  It should have been more like 200cc.  I really don't think the 4 stroke has a real power advantage right now (at least not significant), but after a few more years of developement...

in the case of the 125/250F, consider that this is supposed to be the "beginner" class, then you move up to a 250/450F.  These bikes used to have around 25 hp back in the day, that was probably more appropriate.  Now the 125 class bikes have enough power to go just as fast as a big bike, depending on the track.  To me, this defeats the purpose of the class...the bike should be more power limited so the rider can focus more on learning skills, not riding over his/her head because the engine propels the bike faster than they can control it.

Of course we couldn't ever move the 2 stroke number back to 110, etc. because all older bikes would be obsolete, but they had their opportunity to set the four stroke limit lower, and goofed it up.:|

 

[motometal]

as far as 125s, if you like 'em, this is a good time to enjoy 'em!  The used/barely used late model bikes will be a real bargain for the next few years, as these get gobbled up, there will be many extra new holdovers at the dealers (as there probably is already).  With this going on, you can't blame the mfgs for considering stopping production.

 

[Jon K.]

Originally posted by BEEF706
Faught asked the question how much better can dirt bikes get?

I remember asking the same thing upon taking delivery of my 1972 400 Maico!

 

[linusb]

2 stroke, 4 stroke, it don't matter. I figure it's just a matter of time before internal combustion engines are extinct. Just think about the backlash when the first electric motocrosser is produced! Better increase bandwidth to support the flameboard! :p

 

[mxer842]

the AMA intentially set the 4stroke displacement to give the 4strokes an "advantage" over the 2strokes because they wanted to encourage 4stroke development due to the EPA crackdown on 2strokes they knew that 4strokes needed to be developed and this "advantage" was allowed to stimulate the mfg's into developing them.

 

[muddy226]

Spot on

 

[flyfishdoc]

its good to be back, but i find it unforunate that the first reply i post is to SUCH a depressing thread. All I've ever ridden is two-strokes, and the bike that i've loved the most is my 2 stroke 125 so i think im with everyone in this forum in saying that the phaze-out really SUCKS. I think it highlights two problems facing us as dirtriders, 1) We're facing more pressure from enviromental groups to 'clean up' emissions and 'get out' of forrests, (these same groups have little, or at least much less to say to boating, off road (and on road) trucking, jet sking, or any other major motorized recreational activities). 2) It seems to me that many riders have sacrificed the bike that they esteem (obviously many of you love 125s) in order to have a better chance to be competitive against the (over powereful for its class) 250fs or 450fs, the bikes which are being pushed hard by the bike companies, this tells me that its up to the AMA to do something to keep 125s alive. If the 2 stroke goes away I don't know if I'll ever ride a new bike again

 

[nephron]

What? There's another hyperemotional whitecoat in the house? God help us. ;)

I agree that the 2 stroke is way on its way out, unless Rev! can ward off this trend for a few years or even decades. This simply is the day and age of hybrid cars and biodiesel (oleic, linoleic, linolenic, stearic acids...sound familiar? Heart smart butta'? :think: ). When you've got John Deere's running on $1/gal. margarine, you really can't expect premix with dino oil to make it too much longer. This would be an ideal time to buy a new 500, crate it and save it for the Guggenheim in 2030.

 

[gwcrim]

This would be an ideal time to buy a new 500...

...and ride it until you're too old to start it. Ta heck with the museum piece! It's always a good time to buy a big bore. :thumb:

 

[tailwhip]

its just a matter of time before the 250 2 strokes are gone but i guess thats another topic

 

[Okiewan]

What is in it for the AMA to keep 125's alive?

I'm not sure that it's anything more than "that's the way it was and we liked it" that is the point here? Emotions are getting the better of some of you :p

The 4-Stroke Motocrosser was here first sooo... nah! Problem is, most of us are too young to remember it. AS the next generation of riders come-up, they'll be on 4-Strokes. The writing is on the wall.

Last point, it really doesn't matter what the pro's ride, what matters is what the public buys. The CRF450 SPANKED the CR250 in sales.. THAT is what concerns Honda.... and the other mfg's are watching very closely.

The 2-Stroke MX'er's are (as they say) a "dead man walking".

 

[mxer842]

perfectly said okie

 

[DougRoost]

Okie is right about sales are all that matter in the end. After all, that's their concern with the EPA banning them in the first place.

However, it's a bit too early to talk about the CRF450 spanking the CR250 in sales. This is even more important when it comes to the CRF250 vs. CR125, KXF250 vs. KX125, etc, since they are just coming out. The bottom line is everyone wants the new thing at first -- it's just human nature. If it's been hyped by the press and advertising then all the moreso. In the case of dirt bikes, the hope it make them faster will draw them to it. This was what I pointed out way earlier in this thread.

We'll see if it really pans out that way. When average racing families who are accustomed to $100 top end kits start paying $1000-$2000 for heads, valves, and other 4 stroke engine work, they may rethink things (after paying more for the 4 stroke bikes in the first place). As an engineer, it really concerns me to see the steps the factories are going to ligthening them to make them closer to the weight of 2 strokes -- it WILL affect reliability. There is no disputing the calculus of the area under the 4 stroke torque curve being bigger than that of the 2 stroke curves, but at the mass purchasing level of bikes the economics will become important as the newness wears off.

 

[super rat]

I like this Doug guy.

 

[Y2Z]

agreed, doug brings up some awsome points.

 

[2smoke]

Doug does make some good points. Funny thing though is that I note a certain weariness amongst my 4stroke friends if they are considering updating their bike and its second hand one they are considering buying. They are always very concerned about being lumbered with big dollar engine rebuild. But time will reveal all.

 

[BunduBasher]

The day the big guns stop making 125cc two strokes is the day a Euro company will bring out a direct injection or wankel type clean two stroke - which in turn will spank the 4 stroke for years to come. That is if 2 strokes are not outlawed altogether regardless if they are clean burning or confirm to EPA standards. :p

 

[motometal]

There are checks and balances in the system.  Around here, you can buy a very nice 250 2 stroke for $2500-$3000!  There will come a point where, regardless of how bad joe consumer wants a trendy four stroke, the two stroke is just too cheap to pass up.  I don't think this time has quite come yet, though...my garage is the evidence.  Maybe next season we will see more folks switching back to two strokes??

 

[mxer842]

motometal has a good point. where i live one of my friends has been trying to sell his 03kx125 for 3k and it isn't even broken in and no one has even called.

 

[coleman]

It seems like 250/450 is more fair as the four strokes are not quite double the size. 125/250 is a little unfair imo.

 

[Can Can Kev]

after a couple years those people that are buying all these 4 strokes will hit the harsh reality of motor work, its not fun job, yes i know matenance oon a 4 stroke is less and far between but unless you are very mechanically inclined you wont know what the heak you are doing, ive helped a friend do it on his 426 and it was the biggest pain in the ass known to man, i would have rather done 5 2 stroke rebuilds, while yes this doesnt matter i nthe pros because they have mechanics, in the consumer point of view most kids are gonna have to shell out big buckeroos to take it to the dealer to have done, now im not saying that most peopel can the motor work but im saying the kid who picked up his first dirtbike and doesnt know jimmy squat about it, anybody can do a top end on a 2 stroke it is very easy..... i ride a 125 and i will admit the 4s have there advantages but so do the 2s, now going into 250 2 strokes in the whole freestyle revolution that has come upon us good luck prying the CR 250s out of the hands of the freestyle guys, the 2s are lighter and most are die hard 2 stroke fans.......

just my 2cents

 

[70 marlin]

Originally posted by Can Can Kev
i know matenance oon a 4 stroke is less and far between
just my 2cents

I guess you never seen the maintenance schedule for my Husaberg :eek: , I could longer between inspection with the old KDX!

 

[mxer842]

i hope the manufacturers start to see that many of the ppl who jumped on the 4s bandwagon quickly and are now going back to 2s, maybe this well spur more R&D dollars going that way. but in the end it willn't matter how much we love the 2s if they are illegal.

 

[DougRoost]

I think it's a bit odd how they want to outlaw 2 stroke dirtbikes, while in the meantime 2 stroke leaf blowers, edgers, etc. are getting more and more widespread. And talk about noise -- and in everyone's back yard!

There is simply no denying the lighter weight of a 2 stroke as there are obviously less moving parts and no oil sump, which also means more compact packaging. Imagine the day when people are using 4 stroke chain saws, edgers, etc. Of course that won't happen since the eco-natzis will go after the manufacturers of those next and force them to make only electric appliances!

 

[Tony Williams]

I've seen four stroke weed eaters in Home Depot in California...