Beefydog - I don't think a whole showroom full of running 2 strokes make as much pollution as a parking lot full of 18 wheelers patiently idling while their owners tank up on chicken fried steak. Banning 2 stroke dirt bikes will be intrusive and useless in cleaning up the environment - there aren't enough of them out there, they have small engines that pollute a lot per cc but dont have many cc's, and they aren't ridden enough to make any difference. My CR500AF gets really bad fuel economy, but I still don't go through more than 10 gallons of gas a month. How much pollution could be in that?
Defending the 2-strokes
- Thread starter FlyinHawaiin
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FlyinHawaiin
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- Nov 15, 2003
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originally these environmental freaks were protesting 2-stroke jet skis cause they polluted alot they said cause it actually lets a little gas out in the water here and there. Then they decided to play the political role and attack 2-strokes in all vechicles. wouldnt be surprised if these *******s tried getting rid of dirtbikes all together. Isnt there something else they could be doing to help the environment like I dunno mod CARS SINCE THERE SO MANY MORE OF THOSE THAN DIRT BIKES! you know something to that effect. Man maybe I should go to the rant board oh well felt good.
yes, my biggest concern, is that instead of focusing more efforts on fighting "the man", the mfgs. and many of us consumers are just bending over and taking it. The new four strokes are just good enough to give riders a decent bike to ride, and distract from the REAL issue: they are taking away our rights! Yes, next it will be the noise, tougher emissions laws, tire tread regulations, etc.
Let's face it, everyone likes the idea of something new. Nothing really new and exciting had come along in the dirt bike world since the Roost Boost.
And as far as which is better, we can bicker about that all day long. There's no arguing that the four stroke offers another option to those who don't like to do much shifting and/or clutching. Some folks thrive on the burst of power a two stroke has when it comes on the pipe, yet others dislike it and want smooth power. To each his own.
I know if I spent $6000 on ANYTHING I wouldn't want to admit it even if I didn't like it. $$$ wise, it appears that unless something changes, the two strokes aren't going to be worth much used, but I guess those of us that like them can use it to our advantage. I know i'd be hesistant to get into a well-used high revving four stroke...consider that the Honda 450 has only been out for two years...no one really knows yet what happens after extended run hours. I can't say i'm very impressed when folks rant and rave about how "reliable" their bike is when it only has a season or two on it.
Let's face it, everyone likes the idea of something new. Nothing really new and exciting had come along in the dirt bike world since the Roost Boost.
And as far as which is better, we can bicker about that all day long. There's no arguing that the four stroke offers another option to those who don't like to do much shifting and/or clutching. Some folks thrive on the burst of power a two stroke has when it comes on the pipe, yet others dislike it and want smooth power. To each his own.
I know if I spent $6000 on ANYTHING I wouldn't want to admit it even if I didn't like it. $$$ wise, it appears that unless something changes, the two strokes aren't going to be worth much used, but I guess those of us that like them can use it to our advantage. I know i'd be hesistant to get into a well-used high revving four stroke...consider that the Honda 450 has only been out for two years...no one really knows yet what happens after extended run hours. I can't say i'm very impressed when folks rant and rave about how "reliable" their bike is when it only has a season or two on it.
ever since the days of the "bad boys hells angels"bs, motorcycles have had a bad rep. and 4strokes and 2 strokes make about the same hp, the four-stroke just makes that power over a broader spread so i think that they are fair. until we get a president that races we will be forever fighting the politicians. the amount of polution a 2strokes makes is minimal in comparison to a car or truck. motorcycles aren't politically correct(ala hells angel steretypes) so until they portrey(sp?) a politically corecct image the government will take as many shots as they want to win public support. 2strokes will die, not because they are slower than 4strokes but at the governments hand.
CC per CC 2 strokes make MORE power then a 4stroke.Theres no way that can be logically disputed.Yes the distribution is different as well.
Efforts to increase hp on 4strokes have led to shorter crank strokes, and pusing the engineering to the limits.(lightening up the valve train leading to weaknesses etc) Sure the ones coming out today are getting more reliable but I know a guy who jumped on the YZ400F when it first rolled out, and we were all impressed and amazed. Until after about 15 hours, his lower end was SHOT.
I absolutley love 2 strokes. I read an article a few years ago about the impending doom of the 2stroke motor. There are some stray efforts to improve emmissions, using s type of variable porting configuration, similar to power valves. But the manufacturers are not supporting this, they are pouring everything into the 4 strokes.
There again i agree with alot of you: How much of a percentage of total engine emmissions can us horrible biker people be accounting for? I mean come on. THey already phased out the 2 stroke street bike years ago.
You want to pee yourself sometime? Hop on an H2 (750cc 2stroke triple) and nail it on a straigt line. Nothing like it. No, you wont make a tight turn on an H2 but it kills me wondering what would happen if you took today's handling technology and applied it to a 2 stroke motor for the street.
Im in a poor position to really argue about the 4 strokes to be honest. The most modern bike I own is a 1993 KX250 which I got as a basket case, and took from the ground up last year. THe general feeling Ive always got from this board is that you dont keep a bike more than a year or so. UNfortunately Im not in a position to be able to do this. THat and I only get to ride about 12 times a year, including my vintage schedule.
At least, even if they BAN 2 strokes, I wont notice until 10 years after since I am damned to owning 10 years-or-older bikes. Then again, maybe I should start stock piling pistons and rings for my KX! There'll be a black market for 2 stroke parts! Im waiting for them to say I cant renew the tags on my Triple!
As it is, I own three bikes, all Kaws, and all 2strokes. 1972 F9 350, 1972 S2 350, and 1993 KX 250. I think Ill start using sperm whale oil in my Triple! (THat was what it was back in the day!)
No more smokeless oil for me, Im gonna smoke it up while I can!
Efforts to increase hp on 4strokes have led to shorter crank strokes, and pusing the engineering to the limits.(lightening up the valve train leading to weaknesses etc) Sure the ones coming out today are getting more reliable but I know a guy who jumped on the YZ400F when it first rolled out, and we were all impressed and amazed. Until after about 15 hours, his lower end was SHOT.
I absolutley love 2 strokes. I read an article a few years ago about the impending doom of the 2stroke motor. There are some stray efforts to improve emmissions, using s type of variable porting configuration, similar to power valves. But the manufacturers are not supporting this, they are pouring everything into the 4 strokes.
There again i agree with alot of you: How much of a percentage of total engine emmissions can us horrible biker people be accounting for? I mean come on. THey already phased out the 2 stroke street bike years ago.
You want to pee yourself sometime? Hop on an H2 (750cc 2stroke triple) and nail it on a straigt line. Nothing like it. No, you wont make a tight turn on an H2 but it kills me wondering what would happen if you took today's handling technology and applied it to a 2 stroke motor for the street.
Im in a poor position to really argue about the 4 strokes to be honest. The most modern bike I own is a 1993 KX250 which I got as a basket case, and took from the ground up last year. THe general feeling Ive always got from this board is that you dont keep a bike more than a year or so. UNfortunately Im not in a position to be able to do this. THat and I only get to ride about 12 times a year, including my vintage schedule.
At least, even if they BAN 2 strokes, I wont notice until 10 years after since I am damned to owning 10 years-or-older bikes. Then again, maybe I should start stock piling pistons and rings for my KX! There'll be a black market for 2 stroke parts! Im waiting for them to say I cant renew the tags on my Triple!
As it is, I own three bikes, all Kaws, and all 2strokes. 1972 F9 350, 1972 S2 350, and 1993 KX 250. I think Ill start using sperm whale oil in my Triple! (THat was what it was back in the day!)
No more smokeless oil for me, Im gonna smoke it up while I can!
kdxtodd
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- Nov 14, 2001
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The EPA came out with a report some years back that said that all OHVs, including 4-strokes accounts for 13% of all emissions produced in the US. This is the report that they based their 2006 ban on "Non-complying" engines. (2-strokes). I read in a dirt bike magazine a few months ago that had an article that said that the EPA had redone the measurment and overeggagerated its 13% emissions statement. They said that the percentage was only about 6-7%!!!!!! What percent do think a 2-stroke dirtbike makes? Jack S***!! Hopfulley manufactures have a plan to deal with this, but damage has already been done.
FlyinHawaiin
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- Nov 15, 2003
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yup, I hate the EPA with every fiber of my being, you know what it is its the fact that those people want to keep their jobs so they are always harassing everything that even looks like it pollutes. My first bike was a Suzuki 75' that thing was pretty heavy for a small bike. the 32 inch tall seight was cool too.ah good times
extrememoto
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- Oct 22, 2003
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We have rights? Against the Law to Ride in My Backyard....They are taking away our rights one by one....they will attack the Noise of the 4-strokes next...and if someone was riding a 4-stroke in my backyard...I would be pissed too...
FlyinHawaiin
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- Nov 15, 2003
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sucks your area is so against your track extrememoto, just got to fight the jerks. You should invite a bunch of riders to make a big comotion like you mentioned. Ha invite me man I'll show em a good time with what a CR250 2-stroke can do.
TheJunkMan
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- Jul 9, 2003
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Hell the punk kid filling the tank on your boat at the boat dock pumps/spills more into the water than that jet ski or 2 stroke outboard could ever emit.
robbaker450
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- Jun 29, 2003
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I read in a magazine today that KTM isnt to worried about 4 strokes because they believe that a revival of the 2 stroke is pretty close once people start to realise the down side to a 4 stroke.Water crossing accidents mean water in engine oil.Harder to start if dropped.The high cost of crank rebuilds every 80 to 100 hours.When these bikes are ridden hard they need new rings at 40 hours and new piston at 80 hours as well.I have to pay a mechanic in case i miss a fault that could turn nasty.Having owned 4 late model 4 stokes my joy for riding is nearly gone because i always worry about the engine and maintenance.My 4 stroke is for sale and bring on the 2 stroke....
I dont know. I find it hard to swallow the EPA estimates. 6-7 percent even sounds high to me. How many OHVs versus street cars are there? I suppose the point is cars have emissions regulations and dirt bikes dont, but a small efficient engine like a modern 250 is not gonna be belching out tons of hydro carbs.
Im next to tractor trailers all day long that puke out tons of black crap every time they pull off from a light. MTA busses make me gag when Im behind them.
Hmmm well at the rate those electric scooters are going, we'll all have some super-dee-duper electric-motored mx bikes in a few years. Then the EPA weeds will be trying to outlaw baked beans due to the resultant methane emissions.
Its funny about the evolution of the 4 stroke. My Brother is 12 years older than I am, and I grew up watching him race in the early '70s. WHen I was a kid, he used to tell me " 2 stroke is power, 4 stroke is reliability"
Funny, now 4 strokes are not exactly known for reliability anymore, while 2 strokes are more powerful than ever.
Seriously if I had the money to buy a new bike now, I would get the KX500. Outdated? you could say that it hasnt changed in like 10 years but what more do you need? For the kind of riding I do, it would be great, and it would last me a good long time because Id put like 10 hours a year on it!
That leads me to the only ting that I like about the 4 stroke movement. At least we are seeing some leaps in technology. ITs fun to see the changes happen, you know. The big 4 or now 3 are always trying to give you a reason to buy next year's bike. IN years before the 4 stroke revolution, things sort of werent really changing that much year to year in the 2 stroke arena. Sadly, however, I think the 4 stroke movement is gonna completely halt further advances with the 2 stroke.
Im next to tractor trailers all day long that puke out tons of black crap every time they pull off from a light. MTA busses make me gag when Im behind them.
Hmmm well at the rate those electric scooters are going, we'll all have some super-dee-duper electric-motored mx bikes in a few years. Then the EPA weeds will be trying to outlaw baked beans due to the resultant methane emissions.
Its funny about the evolution of the 4 stroke. My Brother is 12 years older than I am, and I grew up watching him race in the early '70s. WHen I was a kid, he used to tell me " 2 stroke is power, 4 stroke is reliability"
Funny, now 4 strokes are not exactly known for reliability anymore, while 2 strokes are more powerful than ever.
Seriously if I had the money to buy a new bike now, I would get the KX500. Outdated? you could say that it hasnt changed in like 10 years but what more do you need? For the kind of riding I do, it would be great, and it would last me a good long time because Id put like 10 hours a year on it!
That leads me to the only ting that I like about the 4 stroke movement. At least we are seeing some leaps in technology. ITs fun to see the changes happen, you know. The big 4 or now 3 are always trying to give you a reason to buy next year's bike. IN years before the 4 stroke revolution, things sort of werent really changing that much year to year in the 2 stroke arena. Sadly, however, I think the 4 stroke movement is gonna completely halt further advances with the 2 stroke.
the average two stroke rider has his jetting so horribly rich, no doubt there are more emissions are coming out than necessary. Rich carb tuning may not change the volume of all emissions, not sure. Do I really think it contributes significantly to the Earth's pollution? No.
The modern four strokes aren't emissions friendly at all, either. Compare a '69 Camaro to a new 4 cyl. Honda Accord. Your 450F is the Camaro! No catalytic converter, no egr, no smog pump, and open season on jetting.
The "Honda Accord" (ULEV) of the mx world hasn't been created yet (at least not on a production basis), and i'm afraid you wouldn't want to ride it anyway, it would be way too heavy. Not to mention the fact that the "I like loud bikes" crowd would hate it because it would be very quiet.
Be warned...some of the same folks out there currently supporting the four stroke trend will be the same ones complaining when we are FORCED to ride (and pay for) the heavy, clumbsy bike with all of the mandatory emissions equipment.
The modern four strokes aren't emissions friendly at all, either. Compare a '69 Camaro to a new 4 cyl. Honda Accord. Your 450F is the Camaro! No catalytic converter, no egr, no smog pump, and open season on jetting.
The "Honda Accord" (ULEV) of the mx world hasn't been created yet (at least not on a production basis), and i'm afraid you wouldn't want to ride it anyway, it would be way too heavy. Not to mention the fact that the "I like loud bikes" crowd would hate it because it would be very quiet.
Be warned...some of the same folks out there currently supporting the four stroke trend will be the same ones complaining when we are FORCED to ride (and pay for) the heavy, clumbsy bike with all of the mandatory emissions equipment.
jmics19067
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- Jan 22, 2002
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It seems a shame that all of the vehicles manufactured doesn't warrant some more R&D. clean burn technology should be easily enough shared between the jet ski,snowmobile,quad,bike, and lawn equipment engines offerred by the manufactures.
I have heard that when new regulations are passed for highway vehicles some government agency deemed a certain dollar amount was acceptable and not to be exceeded for each model year.IE the new regulations cost an average of 5000$ per vehicle with a maximum of 1000$ a year increase in cost to the consumer so the plan takes 5 years to implement.
The biggest money makers for the manufactures is not the YZ's and Cr's where new technology is expected and wanted. It is the Blaster,PW 50 and weed whackers. Nobody is going to be paying 1200$ for an environmentally friendly weed whacker. It is apparantly easier for the manufactures to make a profit going to four strokes and still have a product that they can legally sell.
I have heard that when new regulations are passed for highway vehicles some government agency deemed a certain dollar amount was acceptable and not to be exceeded for each model year.IE the new regulations cost an average of 5000$ per vehicle with a maximum of 1000$ a year increase in cost to the consumer so the plan takes 5 years to implement.
The biggest money makers for the manufactures is not the YZ's and Cr's where new technology is expected and wanted. It is the Blaster,PW 50 and weed whackers. Nobody is going to be paying 1200$ for an environmentally friendly weed whacker. It is apparantly easier for the manufactures to make a profit going to four strokes and still have a product that they can legally sell.
Senior KX Rider
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- Nov 9, 1999
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My wife bought me one of the 4 stroke weed hackers a couple years ago. Enviro friendly??????Hardly. Only because the public has been conned into thinking so. BTW.....I never use that GUTLESS POS, it hangs in the garage catching dust. I whack my weeds with a full on race MR2 fueled two stroke weed weapon :thumb:
FlyinHawaiin
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- Nov 15, 2003
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2-Stroke Whack weeds.....DEAD, I find it kinda weird that the EPA isnt noticing the huge smoke clouds from diesel fueled vechicles thats a good point not like you cant miss them!
Red Rider 53
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- Jan 16, 2003
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I think the whole idea of banning the two-strokes is crazy. Sure the new four strokes are cool and have a lot of power, but for god sake they run at twice the cc's of the two-strokes! The four-strokes have come a long ways since the days of the TT500, but if it still takes double the cc's to make a two and four-stroke competative I find that unfair. It is like getting a bouncer to match off with a second grader. ( The second grader would have to be unusually strong) but I think you get what I'm trying to say. Until the four-strokes can be competative at a smaller displacement I think the two-stroke are the King's of the jungle, hands down.
jmics19067
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I didnt say a four stroke weed whacker I said an environmental friendly weed whacker for 1200$ like if honda used their radical active chamber 2 stroke engine on it. But you are right in the fact that two strokes get a lot of bad publicity because of over rich jetting and the false alarm of "OH MY GOODNESS YOU ARE ACTUALLY BURNING THE OIL" thought. Heck have to give up half the heaters in houses to satisfy that thought logically.
Diesel trucks are having it done to them too with the impossible regulation of zero emissions on the EPA's table. A few states<New Jersey definately> do have an annual emission test for in state registered vehicles and spot checks for trucks passing thru. As far as I know it is against federal law to tamper with any emission related component of any road vehicle but States cannot enforce a federal law.They can only enforce their own laws.
I definately don't have any answer to the problem but nothing is going to be solved by pointing fingers at 2strokes,diesels,home heating oil etc etc. The Government appeases the eco lobyists to think they are trying to save us by attacking "easy " targets. As far as I am concerned nothing is going to save us from us ,eventually the earth will get sick of humans and shake us off just like the dinosaur. All the greenies are doing is prolonging the inevetible with their self rightous ignorance of humanity's mortality.
Diesel trucks are having it done to them too with the impossible regulation of zero emissions on the EPA's table. A few states<New Jersey definately> do have an annual emission test for in state registered vehicles and spot checks for trucks passing thru. As far as I know it is against federal law to tamper with any emission related component of any road vehicle but States cannot enforce a federal law.They can only enforce their own laws.
I definately don't have any answer to the problem but nothing is going to be solved by pointing fingers at 2strokes,diesels,home heating oil etc etc. The Government appeases the eco lobyists to think they are trying to save us by attacking "easy " targets. As far as I am concerned nothing is going to save us from us ,eventually the earth will get sick of humans and shake us off just like the dinosaur. All the greenies are doing is prolonging the inevetible with their self rightous ignorance of humanity's mortality.
HomeMadeSin
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- Nov 20, 2001
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Bottom line is 2-strokes are more efficient (energy out to energy in). There's nothing worse than an uneducated greenie, which seems to be the norm these days....
Misinformed dirtbikers can be just as troubling. :p
Sorry but that's not even CLOSE to being true. Brake Specific Fuel Consumption (BSFC) numbers of a typical MX two-stroke are in the .0.90 to 0.70 lbs/HP range. While engines like the YZF and CRF are closer to the 0.50 to 0.40 lbs/HP range. For those not familiar with the term, BSFC is a measure of engine efficiency.
I love two-strokes I just hate inaccurate info. :thumb:
FlyinHawaiin
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- Nov 15, 2003
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well I dont think anyone is pointing the finger, just using examples. Basically EVERY DAMM THING pollutes and change can be good but I think certain things will be used for a long time. Take the whole new idea of electric cars some of them still need gas to operate and the ones that are all electric are not too realiable as of yet so gas is still the main deal. Kinda the same with 4 and 2-strokes if you see what I am saying, its not time for the end of the 2-stroke which also leads me to agree with red riders statement 100% couldnt said it better. I just love the whole dirt bike scene and I refuse to ever see it die in my lifetime. Oh yeah and junk you should fire that gas boy!
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