Defending the 2-strokes

[kelsorat]

I have to agree with Rcannon. By 2006 R&D on the 2smokes will probably stop. The manufacturers know they can still sell the bikes without the R&D investment. Unfortunately, with new fuel rules and OHV national issues, the 2 stroke will just be a memory but the next decade.

 

[nephron]

Wartsila-Sulzer RTA96-C turbocharged two-stroke diesel engine is

Comparing a direct injected (by def.), turbocharged diesel engine to a reed-valved loop-scavenged/carb'ed, gas dirtbike engine? VE/BSFC are obviously not traditional strengths of the simple 2 stroke motor. I don't know how high a VE has gone on one of our motors, but I think an off the floor number is around 60-70%, compared to a well-designed CRF450 motor that I believe runs around 100%. Probably 110-120 after Rich has left the garage at the end of the day. 2 strokes make a lot of power relative to size due to combustion frequency over time, amongst others--but they're easily the LEAST efficient motors around.

The motor mentioned above benefits from direct fuel injection (eliminating the need to use/waste incoming charge in order to move exhaust), turbochargers (which increase VE/BSFC....MARKEDLY), and probably more.

I remember reading somewhere last year that Kali's goal is to have 100% of their new vehicle purchases by 2010 be electrical. Not hybrid, but electrical. They're already screwing with dirtbike companies on the green sticker (eg, Yamaha), and since we all typically follow Kali, it doesn't seem good for us.

 

[tedkxkdx]

I recently bought an icat spark shape-changer and duration-lengthener. This device was not intended for motorsport but reducing emissions with industrial use engines. In two strokes the power gain is more than 5 hp on a YZ250 stock. It burns that fuel that otherwise gets pushed through the exhaust. So I called the company and said that they should really test a 2-stroke for emissions and publish the results so we die-hard moto fans can use this to our advantage. The company said they had already known about California and were looking to this aspect of their product. Hopefully this product will really help us out in our fight.

 

[Rich Rohrich]

Originally posted by tedkxkdx
I recently bought an icat spark shape-changer and duration-lengthener.
<snip optimistic HP claims>

It burns that fuel that otherwise gets pushed through the exhaust. s In two

Assuming for the sake of arguement that this device does provide an increase in combustion efficiency it won't be enough to overcome the basic design problems that come with loop scavenged carburated two-strokes.

Unless the basic laws of physics are repealed when you send them your $200, you can't completely eliminate the unburned hydrocarbon problems of existing two-stroke designs with a bolt-on spark device even if it does work better than stock.

 

[CJG]

Here's a link to a possible ray of hope for the two-stroke:
dwolsten.tripod.com/articles/jan97.html
This is an older article, and apparently Honda began working on this technology by at least '95. For all I know this program could have been scrapped since the article, so if anyone has anything more recent please share it. Thanks.

 

[drk98]

Sorry, maybe I should restate. Any of use could have went out there and won by luck but the if you were on a two stroke I think you had a higher chance.

Originally posted by kelsorat
I have to agree with Rcannon. By 2006 R&D on the 2smokes will probably stop. The manufacturers know they can still sell the bikes without the R&D investment. Unfortunately, with new fuel rules and OHV national issues, the 2 stroke will just be a memory but the next decade.

Yeah but I was figuring on a 3.5 liter engine on a 4 door car putting out more fumes than a .4 liter(400cc) motorcycle. I see what your saying. Cars have more stuff put on them to keep the emisions down. Still I say band the snowmobiles. A bike is more fun than riding a atleast 400lb pig of a thing with crappy handling and no wheels. Heck the riding season is only 3 months long and you wouldn't loose to many fans or customers.

 

[Bill Hibbs]

I love two strokes as much as the next guy (currently ride one), but if you can have a 4-stroke of the same weight and power delivery who needs a two stroke? They're close now, especially with these killer 250 4 strokes coming out now.

As for the Snowmobiles, if you get one thing banned, it just makes it easier for them to ban motorcycles. We're all together on this one. It seems most of the snowmobiles are switching to 4-stroke technology as well.

 

[kdxtodd]

2-stroke to 4-stroke in Snowmobiles! No way. 2-strokes are alive and well, lots of new models this year. Artic cat has a new batteryless EFI system for 2-strokes. Check them out at off-road.com

 

[Zsolt67]

Originally posted by WhKnuckle
If you're a Vet, go out immediately and buy a CR500AF - and laugh at anyone who calls a 2 stroke "outdated".

I let a guy who has a YZ450F ride my 500 and he came back babbling like a kid. "So much power, so easy to ride, so light, so flickable, so SWEEEEEET". I think he'd have swapped his bike for mine and thrown his truck in so I could haul it.

They'll be working on 4 strokes for a LOOOOONG time before they build one that light, that powerful, that reliable with that low of a CG. There's nothing wrong with 4 strokes except they are about 10 years behind that bike.

I hate to argue, but have you ridden a new 4-stroke lately? I could never ride a 500 2 stroke as fast as I ride a 450 4 stroke. Even the guys I know that rode 500's for years and years say they would never go back. But each his own. And everybody should have a choice.

 

[FlyinHawaiin]

I just rode a CRF450 before the snow nailed us and I didnt really like how it was harder to handle. Wasnt a hassel or anything but I could feel the difference and couldnt take my turns as tight as I always do half the time. Its only about 12 or 15 lbs heavier than my 2-stroke but I'll stick with my 2-stroker. Handles better and plus its my ride of choice for freestyle.

 

[kdxtodd]

the new thumpers are way better than the old 500s as far as handeling and ease of riding go. But you can't compare the old kx500 or the cr500 to the CR500AF. Its a whole diferent animal.

 

[Yz250FinAZ]

well guys i totally understand you about defending the 2 strokes. I have rode my CR80(110 big bore kit) for about 5 yrs now. I outgrew it. About 1 month ago my dad and i(im only 14) went to some dealers, checked out a ocuple of ads for some 125s, and a YZ250F. My opinion i wanted a CR125 or even a Yz125(there cheaper). My dad took me to look at a 250f and he really liked it since he has a XR600. He likes 4strokes. i was iffy on the bike not saying no becuz i just want a bigger bike that gos faster and can jump bigger with. well my dad decided to get me a 250f and i was ok becuz i rode it and its got a lot of power. but i will always miss that powerband and the stupid neighbors yelling at me for starting and riding my bike up and down the road. so even tho i prolly wont get another 2stroke for a while im all with defending them.

 

[380EXCman]

There is the crux of the matter, the Big 5 don't sell nearly enough off-road bikes to justify making 2 lines.

Clearly KTM falls into the "big 5" but as of right now they pretty much only sell off road bikes..... I think thats why KTM has done so well. They have justified making 2 lines (4 and 2 strokes).

One of the reasons I could never figure out why guys put so much stock in to a bike that a company makes that has equal priority on the development, sale, and design on their bikes as they do their drums, key boards, generators, lawn equipment, cars, forklifts and heavy equipment...... :p

As for the bikes, 2 or 4? Im as screwed up, or maybe as versed as anyone could be. My last 5 bikes in 5 years, oldest to newest. 4 stroke, 2-stroke, 4-stroke, 2-stroke and now a 4-stroke..... All have been my favorite at one point or another. Each one did something better than the other....

Hopefully technology in this industry can stay ahead of the enemy. Because all the current bikes are as good as they have ever been and heaven forbid the government ever becomes so green that bikes are not alowed to be produced simply because its a 2-stroke and smokes or is a 4-stroke and is loud....

 

[kiwi_925]

4-strokes are too loud, you see guys out there with after market pipes and stuff which is fine, but how loud they are just doesnt fly. You get any of the european made enduro 4-stroke bikes and you notice straight away how quite they are, sure it doesnt have that some grunty sound, but the peformance is just as good. At the last round of a regional champs where i live, the top class had only 2 2-strokes out there, 10-12 bikes in the class, and it was the same throughout most of the other classes. But the thing that surprised me was that the only 2 strokes out there were the ones out front...that was the surprising part for me, and you couldnt here them over the 4 strokes running around the place.

 

[kdxtodd]

Its the same way at my track, only a little more 2-strokes. all the slow guys are on 4-strokes cause they cant ride a 2-stroke.

 

[FlyinHawaiin]

new thumpers prob do handle better than the old 500's but im talking bout my CR250's handling. I never rode a 500

 

[FlyinHawaiin]

I wonder when the 05 line of bikes will be out

 

[kiwi_925]

I just did a teams race in the weekend, and im amazed at how everyone is going on about these new thumpers, what about the new '04 KTM 125SX!!! That thing rip's!! I was amazed with the way it handles, brakes, the clutch which is just amazing, and the power it has from down low to up top. Im a guy thats way too big for this bike but ive never had soooo much fun on a bike before. Anyone who hasnt ridden one get out there at ride it if you can, and do it now, dont wait!! After jumping back on my YZ 250, i noticed the best thing about the bike was the clutch. It just makes the riding so much easier and faster. The ergo's on the 125, i felt were more to my liking, i felt like i had more room on that bike than i do on my own. Cant wait to have a go on a KTM 250 SX. We were beating and hanging with 400's and 450's, we ended up 3rd overall, a 400 and 450 we ahead of us, but only after my partner fell off while leading, but the bike was a blast.

 

[FlyinHawaiin]

I have been wanting to try out a KTM for awhile now but I will only see a couple here and there, usually see more yam's than anything else.

 

[Mike McGlade]

Funny, in the old days they had to compete with the same displacement as two strokes and a few guys were always competitive (John Banks, Bengt Aberg) against some stiff competition (DeCoster, Mikkola,etc.). I guess Ricky showed everyone this year at the MXDN when he whupped the world on his 250 two stroke (had to come from behind to eventually pass the great Stefan Everts on his factory Yamaha 450). We can thank overzealous environmentalists, the UN, the EPA and a un-informed, ill-prepared (for the fight the green extremist groups are fighting against us) riding population for the demise of the two-stroke as well as the elimination of riding areas. Do yourselves a favor and go to www.sharetrails.org for information on preserving access to riding. It is the only way we are going to have a serious voice in Washington where the environmentalists have the upper hand because of the previous administrations close ties and socialistic views.

 

[HobRoff]

Good post Mike, as I write I am in the process of pulling the head and cylinder off of my '02 kx 250 for Eric's 2mm overbore/porting. At Washougal the four strokes eat me up on "Horsepower Hill", part of it is my gearing which I am troubleshooting to. I am also looking at picking up an 04 YZ 250 later this year. Also I have a problem on the environmental aspect as well - a properly tuned 2 stroke runs pretty clean, my bike is not a smoker, and then what is the overall impact of all the two-strokes in existance - pretty minor if you ask me and I am directly supported by cutting down trees - best saws? Stihl and Huskys!!!

 

[FlyinHawaiin]

well most of the battle in a race is the rider and ricky is just too damm good. I'm pretty sure he could make anything look fast when hes on it, but your right I dont think there is any motocross bike that is just the best. Sure the 450's can compete but cant flat out beat a fine tuned 250 2-stroke on any given day.

 

[FlyinHawaiin]

Oh yeah and before I forget I called my local honda dealership and it seems they are sure that 2-strokes will be "grandfathered" as the term goes which basically means we will be able to ride after 2006 be it trails or race. So I'm satisfied cause in my view nobody has the right to just stop you in the woods and tell you to get off the bike and the rep at honda agreed there would be a huge riot if we couldnt ride our bikes. Think I will buy a 03 CR250 while I'm at it.

 

[Rich Rohrich]

Originally posted by FlyinHawaiin
Sure the 450's can compete but cant flat out beat a fine tuned 250 2-stroke on any given day.

I think Mr.Windham might disagree. LOL :confused:

 

[FlyinHawaiin]

that proves my point right there COMPETITION it was totally back and forth between carmicheal and windham towards the end of the season. Deff two great riders vellenium is good too.