Defending the 2-strokes

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jmics19067

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everything does pollute especially mankind, a lot of greenies will point at anything they don't want in their backyard. take for instance trash to steam plants or dumps for that matter. A necessary evil if you will that is perfectly fine to have and detrimental to public health if you don't. As long as it isn't affecting their immediate neighborhood. Since econuts dont enjoy dirtbikes it will not directly bother them if they are wiped off the face of the earth.

I tend to believe most of the do gooder voting environmentalist are affluent people with too much time on thier hands. Since they are of the more money than brains club they feel they are saving the world. Electric cars in their minds are perfectly environmentally friendly and yet making electricity is one of the biggest polluting industries there is.
 

Red Rider 53

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I'm just sort of throwing this idea out there, but what if we started a little project. Anybody from DRN that wants to sign can. We can make some sort of petition stating the fact that we are against the banning of the 2-strokes and send it to an important government branch. Now this can either go well, be a bomb, or just not worth trying. That why I need you guys to help me figure that out. :thumb:
 

jmics19067

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Count me up for signing but I believe they are not banning two strokes as that statement sounds .what they did is implement an emision recquirement that the current crop of two strokes won't be able to comply with. The real problem is that the regulation is stricter than what the manufactures can produce profitably for the average consumer.

Cars have seen this problem in 1974 where performance and sales where lackluster compared to the muscle car era of the 60's. the motorcycle manufactures have 30 years of automotive history to look at what works and what doesn't for the four stroke.It is easier for them to go four stroke,comply with the regs and still be able to sell the bikes at a profit.

We as consumers have to prove that the two stroke is worth saving by buying every one of them and demanding more. Even the lousy ones so the manufactures will still believe they can dump R&D into them and still turn out profitable. this is strictly an open the wallet and let the monies do the talking thing

Also we as the voting American public have to prove to the Federal government that recreational use of 2strokes impact on the environment is grossly exaggerated . That and the imposed regulations are too strict with out any positive influence on the environment. This is where we would need extremely knowledgeable people that knows the truth,sift thru their BS ,embelish our own statements and know how to play the political game.
 

HomeMadeSin

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mmmmmmm... crow tastes good. Sorry for the ignorant statement - I must've misread something. That's what I get for flying off the handle.

I remembered something I searched early. My ol' man used to race outboard boats and it was my 1st intro to 2-stroke engines. If you've never hit a 200 Merc w/shaved heads and strictly for racing, you haven't lived. I was only about 17 and didn't dare hit the nitrous or trim the unit out to max. Anyway, the latest 2-strokes (boats) use DFI injection that have greatly improved the 2-stroke efficiency. I did a search a while back and learned that Chrysler was planning on developing a 2-stroke engine for the Neon, but lack of consumer demand for that level of product put on the shelf. Check it out here: 2-stroke Neon?

I am NO match for Rich, and shouldn't have spouted off w/o some background. Dirtbikes may favor the 4-stroke, but has the technology been squeezed out of the 2-stroke to the extent of the YZF and CRF? I don't know.
 
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Red Rider 53

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Well if this petition is going to happen I'm going to need some help writing it. So if anybody that wants to help can PM me or e-mail me that would be great!
 

Rich Rohrich

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Originally posted by HomeMadeSin
Dirtbikes may favor the 4-stroke, but has the technology been squeezed out of the 2-stroke to the extent of the YZF and CRF? I don't know.

Dirtbikes haven't really tapped all the available resources for either two-stroke OR four-strokes. The current crop of MX four-strokes work really well but are pretty simplistic compared to the state of the art. Looking at the advances in the two-stroke marine industry it's clear the same can be said for two-stroke dirt bikes.

Okie pretty much summed it up. As much as we might love two-strokes, money will be the deciding factor. As long as new bike buyers vote for four-strokes with their dollars it will become increasingly difficult for engineering groups to get funding to develop two-strokes. Without R&D dollars it will be tougher to move new models off the showroom floor. Once the sales numbers drop models tend to go quietly into the night. The demise of the CR500 was a good example of this.

Hopefully guys like Doc and his innovative DFI two-stroke design can change the fate of two-strokes.
 

FlyinHawaiin

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Nov 15, 2003
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Hell yeah I'll oppose whoever wants to bring down 2-strokes as far as a little help here is the AMA's statement going against house bill 1909 that could ban 2-strokes here in Massachusettes (doubt it will happen). It will give you the idea of this political mumbo jumbo. Not letting us use our 2-strokes goes against our rights as a consumer! anyways here is the statement:

As an off-highway vehicle enthusiast I am strongly opposed to this legislation. Not only will this bill unfairly limit my choice as a consumer, but it will also circumvent emissions standards, recently revised by the federal Environmental Protection Agency, for recreational vehicles. The new emissions standards are designed to reduce the overall emissions from off-highway vehicles while still allowing for consumer choice and the continued, although limited, use of two-stroke powered machines.

A statewide ban on the sale of two-stroke powered recreational vehicles would be unfair and is not justified in light of EPA regulations. I respectfully request that you oppose House Bill 1909.
 

HomeMadeSin

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My main issue is that it seems somewhat political and something winds up being tagged the bad guy (in this case the 2-stroke). It has benefits that make it ideal for motorcycles, weedwackers and boats. I just wonder if the industry threw the towel in for ? reasons.

Anyway, check this out:

The Wartsila-Sulzer RTA96-C turbocharged two-stroke diesel engine is the most powerful and most efficient prime-mover in the world today. The Aioi Works of Japan's Diesel United, Ltd built the first engines and is where some of these pictures were taken.
It is available in 6 through 14 cylinder versions, all are inline engines. These engines were designed primarily for very large container ships. Ship owners like a single engine/single propeller design and the new generation of larger container ships needed a bigger engine to propel them.

The cylinder bore is just under 38" and the stroke is just over 98". Each cylinder displaces 111,143 cubic inches (1820 liters) and produces 7780 horsepower. Total displacement comes out to 1,556,002 cubic inches (25,480 liters) for the fourteen cylinder version.

Some facts on the 14 cylinder version:
Total engine weight: 2300 tons (The crankshaft alone weighs 300 tons.)
Length: 89 feet
Height: 44 feet
Maximum power: 108,920 hp at 102 rpm
Maximum torque: 5,608,312 lb/ft at 102rpm

Fuel consumption at maximum power is 0.278 lbs per hp per hour (Brake Specific Fuel Consumption). Fuel consumption at maximum economy is 0.260 lbs/hp/hour. At maximum economy the engine exceeds 50% thermal efficiency. That is, more than 50% of the energy in the fuel in converted to motion.
For comparison, most automotive and small aircraft engines have BSFC figures in the 0.40-0.60 lbs/hp/hr range and 25-30% thermal efficiency range.

Even at it's most efficient power setting, the big 14 consumes 1,660 gallons of heavy fuel oil per hour.

You can see the monster at: http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ccsshb/12cyl/
 

FlyinHawaiin

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Nov 15, 2003
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Funny in the general discussion area people are talking about the death of the 125 2-stroke and how dominant the 250F's are. How come 4 people riding 250F's (one honda one kawi and 2 yamahas) got smoked by my childhood buddy riding his 125 suz 2 days ago. I tell ya you shouldnt flaunt it unless you can back it up. Hell even a 12 yr old on a 125 suz kicked their arses!!! ah good times
 

Rich Rohrich

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Originally posted by FlyinHawaiin
How come 4 people riding 250F's (one honda one kawi and 2 yamahas) got smoked by my childhood buddy riding his 125 suz 2 days ago.

For the same reason Kevin Windam on a four-stroke regularly beat the best pros in the country and their two-strokes. It's always smart to bet on a great rider over a great bike. ;)
 

FlyinHawaiin

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Nov 15, 2003
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yup it is the rider more than the bike deffintly my buddy was kinda doing suckie that day though, think his right wrist was acting up again since he broke it. Kept crashing on the same tight right turn but still won. It was deffintly endurance that won him that race it was just funny how no one was praising their 250F's anymore and grouping around them after the race. Not to mention the bragging they were doing after the first race they won against some other people. It was just me, my bud and the 12 year old kid drinking victory OJ. (I forgot the kids name DOH)
 

wayneg

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The other organisation thats trying to change things is the FIM - mainly to stay ahead of the politicians in Europe, or at least keep them happy. Europe is still a significant market for the manufacturers, so even if you beat the EPa in the US you might find that the marnufacturers end up being hamstrung by other pollution laws in other parts of the world :(

I don't like the idea of anyone banning 2 strokes because its starting to affect even minority sports like Observed Trials - the FIM is trying to change the rules at World Championship level in 2005, effectivly forcing a change to four strokes AND imposing a minimum weight rule.

To me the simplest logic dictates that its more about volume of pollutants, and they would get the biggest benefit by concentrating on cars and trucks before worring about weed whackers or motorbikes.....
 

afunk

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Oct 27, 2003
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The tree huggers have to have something to complain about. As soon or if they get there way with 2 strokes they will be trying to get rid of dirt bikes period. They live in houses mage of wood with fireplaces in them, and drive cars that pollute so why get on our cases.... Long live 2 strokes and dirt bikes period.
 

FlyinHawaiin

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Nov 15, 2003
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I went on motorcycle usa today and if you go into forums and into the dirt bike section someone brings up the subject of 2-strokes and there are two eco-freaks in that forum that really need to back down.
 

drk98

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Mar 30, 2002
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Originally posted by FlyinHawaiin
2-Stroke Whack weeds.....DEAD, I find it kinda weird that the EPA isnt noticing the huge smoke clouds from diesel fueled vechicles thats a good point not like you cant miss them!

Exactly, blame it on the 2 stroke motorcycle. All this was origanaly caused by cars. Take the SUV or now the need for everyone to have a desil, crew cab, long bed, V10 truck. Why doesn't everyone ride motorcycles on the road. They did back in the 70's. Heck 50's could be street legal. Now the only stock 2 stroke DS is the KE100. It sucks that its preventing production of new bikes. I was hoping to see a KDX125 or 150. I wish they still made the 175 enduro's. Thats why I like KTM because they make a wide selection of 2 strokes(EXC/MXC 125, 200, 250, 300, 380 + the SX125 and 250). I don't think they(EPA) can do it. They may stop the production but they can't stop me from riding one in my yard. Besides everyone will try to sell theirs and no one will buy it. It will cause more land pollution in junk yards than to the ozone. I sure hope we have a good president when this happens.
 

FlyinHawaiin

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Nov 15, 2003
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I dont care what crap they give me in 2006 or 2010 or 2020 I'm riding two stroke till I die they are light and powerful, everything I want.
 

truespode

Moderator / Wheelie King
Jun 30, 1999
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Originally posted by prvt.pyle
the 2 strokes did pretty darn good in the mud at seville

I agree. I wonder if any of the 4-strokes even finished?

I ride a 4-stroke but I think that mud race really showed some of the strength of the 2-stroke line.

Ivan
 

drk98

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Mar 30, 2002
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I would have figured the 4 strokes would have the right power but I bet every one of then overheated. Anyone of us could have went out there and won. It was all a matter of luck. That must of been hell for SX riders who have never seen mud. But the 2 stroke did it and that proves which is better(like I didn't already know). Top 5 were RM250 and they say they don't have any riders. Get that guy from New Zealand over here.
 

wayneg

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While mud is a great leveler as far as the power vs weight argument goes I think it is more about having the mud riding skills - not many people are used to riding fast in mud. I think that carrying around an extra 40lbs of mud on the bike may make the difference in weight between a 2 stroke and 4 stroke 'feel' a lot more. Over here a high proportion of our muddiest Enduros are won outright by good riders on smaller four strokes, until recently XR250s and more recently DRZ400s. This is because the riders have the skills to ride in mud - whenever theres a very muddy World Championship MX or Enduro the riders from Finland and Sweden dominate because they are really great riders in mud, and everyone else is more used to riding in drier conditions. As far as reliablility goes anything thats air cooled usually is better in mud because there are no blocked radiators......most water cooled bikes will overheat if you jam enough mud in their radiatiors :flame:

On the other hand I think that sandy conditions where there are more whoops definitely favour 2 strokes.....by a huge margin. :yeehaw:

One other point about the whole polution debate is about the length of time the vehicle is used. Having your large V8 or V10 running for 2-3 hours each day for five days a week (usually sitting in a traffic jam on the way to work), compared to your 250cc MX bike which may run for 2 hours every sunday seems to be a fairly good arument to me. How much fuel do you use each week in your car or SUV compared to the amount of fuel used in your MX bike - probably a ratio of 50 gallons to 1 gallon....
 
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drk98

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Mar 30, 2002
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Originally posted by MrLuckey


Which is it? lol

Dang, I was wondering that too. Considering the name of the thread, my board name, my bike(a 2 stroke), previous posts, and the color of my hair I figured the 2 stroke but you never know.:think:

Weyneg:
Yes you would mainly have to have balance to move fast in mud and ruts as well as good throttle and clutch control.

I don't have a car yet but even a 4 person car that gets 20mpg versus 4 people on 4 bikes getting 80mpg is even. Do the math. It would take that car 4 gal. to go 80 mile w/ 4 people. It would take each of the 4 bikes a gal. to go 80 miles. But just think of all the trucks that get 10mpg and only one or two people are driving/riding.
 

jmics19067

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I don't have a car yet but even a 4 person car that gets 20mpg versus 4 people on 4 bikes getting 80mpg is even. Do the math. It would take that car 4 gal. to go 80 mile w/ 4 people. It would take each of the 4 bikes a gal. to go 80 miles. But just think of all the trucks that get 10mpg and only one or two people are driving/riding.

back to the emisions problem,


the problem is not really how much fuel the vehicle consumes the regulation is about how much unburnt fuel/polutants comes out the tail pipe. That should be kinda self explanatory to anybody who lives in a state with emission testing. Fuel consumption is a different problem that auto manufactures have to deal with not directly being applied to other engines. At this point of the game the regulations don't really care how much fuel it will cost you for fun just as long only water and carbon dioxide come out the pipe.
 
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