DirtRider Mag, Racer X, MXA & Transworld

[Okiewan]

Yeah... I'm guilty of singling-out TWMX... but hey, yours was the mag I was reading just before I posted, so you got quoted. Now if "Internet Bandit" is a term of endearment then I'm just a bad, bad man for using it as an example and apparently not in the lingo loop :laugh:

 

[Green Horn]

I think the long-term is in favor of places like DRN. Anything and everything has gone the way of the internet. I would bet that mag sales have already suffered slightly due the 'net being a viable source to use for all kinds of info. As time goes by, it's only going to become more common practice. Dirt Rider mag and the likes will have problems paying over-blown salaried editors if all that's being "utlilized" is a website.

 

[Okiewan]

An example of the bad side of the web; cut from racerhead on the RacerX website:

Team Yamaha’s David Vuillemin took a whipping online this week over at Mototalk because he politely went in and asked if anyone had a photo of him whipped on the big tabletop at Unadilla. It was an unfortunate, ugly affair. (He deserved better, guys.)

 

[truespode]

Originally posted by swapmoto
Unfortunately, we don't have the time or the man power to moderate our message boards. In fact, I am trying to get it torn off the TWMX web site.

I like web forums and would hate to see any of them go away. Moderating websites is hard but I know that a few sites could get together and hire a moderatorship of sorts.

Imagine a full time staff that is compensated from multiple magazine or manufacturer sources who will surf the web on dirtbikes, contribute and keep things clean. That is sorta the Ombudsman thing to do.

The only way for it to be cost effective for you guys though would be if it was a group of mags, bbs owners and such that wanted to hire a staff. Otherwise the pay would probably not be worth it to the Ombudsman and you would end up with some power hungry freaks (like me :) ).

Seriously though, you could get some really good guys who know about bikes to work in their spare time (at night for those that work first shift, during the day for those that work nights) and have them help out. The Internet opens you up to a great resource of true enthusiasts.

DRN is fortunate to have the mods we have. We do it for the love of the sport and gladly give our time. There are more out there who want to do the same. Just b/c your staff doesn't have the manpower to moderate doesn't mean it is an unattainable task to have moderatorship.

I still maintain if the manufacturers and those owning Internet boards took a more serious look at the positive outcome then it would be very beneficial. You could even charge for certain aspects (ala DRN) or for complete access (ala MT).

Ivan

 

[swapmoto]

Green Horn - While the internet is great, I don't think it will ever completely replace print magazines. Sure, there are converts out there who download novels onto their PDAs and guy who have stopped buying moto mags in favor of web sites like this, but believe me - there will always be a demand for a magazine that you can hold in your hands, take to the crapper with you, rip pages out of and stick on your walls.
If the web was "killing" print mags already, there would be no way that - in three years - TransWorld Motocross could have already gained nearly 30K subscribers and an overall circulation of nearly 80K.
I do believe that the manufacturers are starting to better ecognize the value of the web. This year, we've seen several web masters invited to join us on new bike test days, most notably Dirck Edge from MCDaily.

Over-blown salaries? Sheesh! I don't know about Jody and Ken, but I am in this biz because I love to ride dirt bikes, not to get rich.

By the way, does anyone know of a good nightime watch winder? I hate it when one of my Rolex watches goes dead when I wear the other one for a few days...


Kidding, of course.

 

[Okiewan]

By the way, does anyone know of a good nightime watch winder? I hate it when one of my Rolex watches goes dead when I wear the other one for a few days...

Don't feel too bad man, I've been accused of the same thing. "look at all the ads DRN has, he's got to be rich" :silly: If they only knew.

 

[Patman]

Ya' know swap I've seen a few interesting things in your posts and maybe I'm not seeing the whole picture but...

If your trying to take the TWMX forums off your site what's wrong with hooking up with DRN?

And...

If your hooking up with some web masters for bike reviews again what's wrong with hooking up with DRN?

We run a tight ship and have a pretty vast active membership (i.e. real riders of all levels and riding types) might be something that's useful to a magazine there huh?

Just a thought from my The world revolves around DRN mind :)

 

[truespode]

Originally posted by swapmoto
I don't think it will ever completely replace print magazines.

It won't completely replace but it will significantly reduce the need for print. The object of the web boards and web information is NOT to replace print but to provide a competive market that will IMPROVE content.

Neither will ever go away. Neither will ever be more important to the other but the importance of the mags is going down while the importance of the Internet is going up. It is like a pendulum and it will start to stop eventually and when that happy medium comes the changes should be beneficial on both sides. Much change will occur in the meantime and I think the print industry is more apprehensive about that than the Internet crowd.

there will always be a demand for a magazine that you can hold in your hands, take to the crapper with you, rip pages out of and stick on your walls.

Wireless notebooks like I have, wireless PDA's and color printers make those things easier. Add to that the ease of putting up a personal web page for someone with little skill and you can post pictures of your riding, your trips to the races and share them with hundreds of friends instead of trying to remember the print pics next time you go to so and so's for dinner.

If the web was "killing" print mags already, there would be no way that - in three years - TransWorld Motocross could have already gained nearly 30K subscribers and an overall circulation of nearly 80K.

You have a damn good mag that targets a particular demographic. Your value is in its quality.

Having said that... the only reason I began subscribing to TWMX is b/c of your input on the web (never even heard of your mag until I saw your website). Same with DC and RX. The web was what has attracted me to those magazines in the first place and TWMX and RX websites are places I hit daily.

I am in this biz because I love to ride dirt bikes, not to get rich.

That is another reason your magazine does well. The enthusiasts see that in every issue.

Ivan

 

[swapmoto]

I'd like to get rid of the message boards on our web site because we don't have time to moderate them, and they get dominated by 10-year-old kids who have nothing better to do than tell everyone that Ricky sucks big weiner and Chad eats kangaroo poo.

As far as "hooking" up with web masters, I think you misunderstood.... we've seen some invited out to the new bike intros, but we don't work in conjunction with them. We've got our own web site, and we post our own first impression tests on the same day we first throw a leg over the bikes.

I've got a question... I always hear the term "real riders" when it comes to people volunteering to test bikes. What makes everyone think that I don't have a staff of test riders that are "real riders?" Believe it or not, test riders are carefully selected for our magazine, and a day of testing is a lot more than showing up, snapping some photos and eating free food. At the moment, we've got two pros (Rich Taylor and Michael Young), one intermediate (Josh Stice), one novice (Brian Minter) and one vet (Kyle Puerner). Additionally, our staff members, for the mostpart all ride and race regularly. Garth Milan and Ryan Cooley are fast enough to be competitive in the intermediate class, I do pretty well in vet intermediate, and GuyB and Luis my art director are good to gain beginner impressions from. I think we're all "real riders." :-)

 

[bhiner]

When I started considering getting back into dirt biking(after a 15year absence). I neede info., the technology had changed so much that I had no idea what bikes to purchase for myself and my two sons. I bought every Mag out there and was disapointed in the lack of real, credible, everyday user reviews that I could trust. I stumbled on DRN while searching the web for info.
!!!WOW!!!
I could not believe the amount of info available here, not only on bikes, but also the vast amount of fodder for anything related to motorcycling.

Long story short.... Bought two brand new Kawi's. & attended DW '02!
Already signed up for DW '03

Hey Kawasaki, you owe a commission(i.e. advertising) to DRN.

 

[truespode]

Originally posted by swapmoto
I do pretty well in vet intermediate, and GuyB and Luis my art director are good to gain beginner impressions from. I think we're all "real riders." :-)

I think most of us fit in the GuyB/Luis beginner impression in comparison to the rest of the guys that you listed :)

When we say real riders I think part of that is there is still a bias against magazines from the Internet crowd due to the SoCal local (hey I rhymed :) ). I hear about how the tires hooked up at Glen Helen and how the jetting seemed fine and I always ask myself how would that change at a track in Colorado? (I do realize you are limited by what the manufacturer and finances will allow).

Your magazine does a good job of not focusing so much on the bike as much as your impression of the bike under the circumstances you rode. However, other magazines have come across as if their riding area, their riding style, the jetting for that particular day and the tire choice for that riding area is where the majority of consumers will ride.

However, most of the riders I know don't just ride MX and most don't race. Therefore there are some assumptions by the reading public that the magazines do not care about them. At least on the Internet there can be a more personal touch. Even if there are a lot of instances where there is bad advice given (another part of the pendulum swinging).

Don't get me wrong... I love the reviews. My all time hero is Karl Kramer and I never met the guy but as a kid HE was the guy I wanted to grow up to be (sheesh, you can tell I must have had a ****ty childhood ;) ). Seriously, I respected his opinion and looked for everything he ever said whenever I opened my magazine. I respected the riding tips from Bob Hannah and Terry Cunningham but when they did a test on a bike I was interested in all I cared about was Karl's impression... much like how many people care about Rich's impression of an engine design more than they would Jody!

Ivan

 

[Okiewan]

I don't think your def. of a "real rider" is what Patman intended. My opinion of a "real rider" isn't necessarily a racer at all. What do the numbers look like? How many of the MX / OffRoad bikes sold are ever entered in an race? Most are in the garages of weekend riders; that's fact.

Some of the mags (cough MXA cough) have lost touch entirely with everyone but wealthy (you have to be to afford the stuff they say you just have to have to make a bike usable) posers and hardcore socal racers (and of course their target; pubescent boys).

A lot of folks would like to see some (alternative) reviews by average Joe; the one that rides with wife and kids, rides on the weekends with buds, doesn't race, etc. Rather than "This product will make you faster. Buy it" reviews that we see year in and year out.

I've understand the reason for glossed-over, generalized, detail lacking reviews is a lack of space... simple solution; if you can't do it right, don't do it. Yes, I know it's enough to please the fore mentioned pubescent boy, but...

It's seems like swap is taking the brunt here... but actually TWMX is IMHO one of the two good mags out there. He's just the only one that will show up to respond for the rest of 'em; thanks for taking the time Donn. :p

Now all you need to do is show-up at DirtWeek for a day or two to see what we're talking about when we say "real riders" or "this is what it's supposed to be like" or what the family side of the sport looks like. That DOES NOT mean "family" as in mini-dad's pushing Jr. onto the track either. I think the best single sentence I've heard to describe it was by Guy Cooper last year; "I've never seen anything like this, it's like a huge family reunion on bikes"

I'm not saying our idea "of how it should be" is the only way, or the right way for that matter, I think what a lot of us are just looking for is more variety in the articles. Someone mentioned REV, this is the very reason folks will buy it.

 

[Patman]

I'm not trying to say TWMX (which does do a better job than most BTW) doesn't have "real riders" but by and large most all of the printed sources use pro's or some other popular name to do their tests be it a tire, suspension, or bike test. Sure the skills might help give good insight in to certian areas but Joe Average knows he's never going to be a Rich Taylor so how does Joe Average relate? Maybe Joe Average races a little MX and also trail rides with his kid how does the bike work in that type of environment? Sure that's not TWMX's issue but then Joe Average has to go find a magazine that covers the bike as used in a trail or HS type situation. I'm not prompting for a format change to TWMX or any of the others either just trying to point out some flaws from the Joe Average side of the fence. So I guess in my mind the term "Real riders" might comprise:
-Wide cross section of abilities.
-My ride both MX and trail or HS or .....
-Work on their bikes themselves (how come nobody ever told me doing whatever was a PITA on this bike?)
-Keep their bikes more than a season.

I guess some names I might throw out as "real riders" that have shown up in the printed media are Mark Taylor & Steve Cardwell. These guys were invited to come test some bikes and provide feedback for the writeups from their perspective. Do ya' think they compared the bikes they tested to their usual ride, at least in the back of their head? You bet. Did they think it was cool? You bet. Would I listen to what either of them had to say about a bike they rode? You bet. All because I can relate to them. Having the same names show up all the time makes Joe Average view the review with an eye towards the "This guy get's paid to do this why would he say something bad." slant vs. taking something a buddy might tell you about the bike.

Ivan and Okie pretty much hit the nail on the head as far as what I was trying to call "real riders".

 

[Timr]

I too think that Swap is taking the brunt of our frustration because he was the only editor brave enough to venture in here.  I've read a half dozen issues of TWMX and don't find them to be as guilty as DR and DB.

Any of the older members of this forum know that I've been one who has loved to rail on the decline of the dirt bike print media.  I posted a letter in the Flame forum that I sent to Ken Faught.  Of course, no part of my letter got printed nor was it ever replied to.

This gist of my complaint was that the entire magazine was now picture and caption driven.  The actual amount of printed article type content had dwindled to almost nothing.  There was only on editorial column, that was Ken's, and it was as useless as everyting that has ever been written (or ghost written) for Roland Hinz.

The problem with the magazines was they had altered their content based on the resonpes that they got from those annual surveys.  Well, that told them to target a younger demographic.  Of course, you going to get a survey bias from any printed survey where you get entered to win a free bike if you fill it out.  Every 12 year old out there is going to fill it out and hope to win the bike.

How short sighted do you have to be to go with more pics, less print in order to appeal to the sub 18 year old group that has no money to spend on bikes and parts?

In contract to the picture based catalogs loaded with Advertorial bike tests, you have a place like DRN.  What you notice is, for the most part, it's all text based.  So, there are actual dirt bikers out there who can still read, and have the patience to read a lot of text in one sitting.

When you can read the entire magazine cover to cover in the amount of time that it takes to check out in the 20 items or less line at the grocery, you know there's a problem.  My favorite is the infamous "insert aftermarket company" bike test, where you take a brand new bike, and throw $4000 worth of aftermarket parts at it.  And, there's no real conclusions drawn about what actually worked better and what didn't.

Are you saying that this type of article is not done as a kickback based on the number of pages purchased by said aftermarket company?

10 years ago, this kind of stuff didn't happen, as much.  There was still a definate line between the editorial department and advertising sales.  I have a Dirt Bike magazine in the floor next to my bed that has a CR250 test done in conjuction with Pro Circuit.  Rick Johnson was the rider and do you know what they did to the stock CR250?  They put on a PC pipe and silencer.  That's it.  No other changes.  Then, they wrote a 3 page article about what that did to the bike and why it was worth it and how it compaired to stock and so forth.  You don't see that anymore.

Nor do you see those magazines venturing out to test bike at races outside of SoCAL.  If you do, it's not done the way that it was in the past.  The magazines are not taking their test bike from California to Texas or Florida or Ohio and racing them.  They are mooching a bike from the race team and then testing that.

One magazine got a bike from Team Suzuki FMF off road team.  They of course rode in the shorter morning race because that's where the "industry" class is and it allowed them to take pics of the big boys that afternoon.  Then they wrote an article that did little to convey what happened in the race, or how well the bike worked.

Here again, what you get here is a thread from a number of different people who write about their own experiences at the exact same race.  Readers then ask questions about the race and/or bike performance in that particular race condition.

Eric Gorr and I have discussed this at length.  After living abroad for a year, I asked him why he thought the european magazines, (including the ones that ran monthly columns written by Eric) do such a better job than the ones here in the states.  His response was that they write all of their articles from the perspective of "trying to convey they riding experience to the reader" 

That makes a lot of sense.  Why do we read magazines in the first place?  Obviously for information and entertainment.  But, the underlying reason is to get a feel for the hobby that we love.  Everyone would rather ride than read, but you can't ride all the time so pic up a magazine and read about riding.  Nobody wants to read a picture book or a catalog.

All of my magazine subscriptions have expired.  Things seem to be changing a little in the right direction, so I might subscribe to one or two next year.

 

[Patman]

Timr that was AWESOME! Dude you can make fun of me any time after that post, it hits the nail square on the head and drives it home.

When I was a kid I bought magazines with my hard earned money from delivering papers because the information there was "real" it was something I could sink my teeth in to for more than 30 minutes, stuff I would read and reread. It covered how this one piece might effect your bike or how it was to ride this race, etc... it had Eric Gorr for Pete's sake! (just ask how I could hardly talk to the guy at DW'01, you'd have thought I was sitting next to McGrath!). Now we have jobs and Internet access and we see how the line that was sharp is now fuzzy and it makes us think something fishy is going on because magazines previously were very much editorial info and then sales garbage and now it's sort all all mushed together.

I currently have 2 subscriptions one is for Trials Competition and the other is for REV. I had a subscription to TWMX & RX but I let them lapse. I do find myself picking up TWMX on a regular basis from the newstand so I guess I should just do it :think: .

So I guess Donn try not to take all of this as being directed at TWMX because you do have one of the better publications available on our sport but also don't go thinking that the Internet is all about 10 year olds talking about kangaroo wieners. :)


BTW I am available for testing reguardless what Timr and Green Horn might lead you to believe. :thumb:

 

[Okiewan]

BTW I am available for testing reguardless what Timr and Green Horn might lead you to believe.

They probably would prefer people that actually ride.

 

[Patman]

Originally posted by Okiewan
They probably would prefer people that actually ride.

:laugh: So the list is longer than I stated. OK time to dog pile, Farmer John, Mr.Luckey...? Anybody else before the station is full?

 

[Green Horn]

Originally posted by Timr
I too think that Swap is taking the brunt of our frustration because he was the only editor brave enough to venture in here.

Yeah, I wanna see Ken F. or someone of the likes on here. ;)


Swap, Don't take my comments personal. Not knowing what your actual "salary" is, I am not directing my comments right at you. Hell, I don't know anyones salary in "the industry", but there's gotta be a handful of them bankin' pretty good for their years of write-ups. I agree that the mags will never go away. However, the web really is a much easier tool to use when searching for information...including dirtbikes (and cheaper too). The fact that your sales for subscriptions of TWMX went up is great. I certainly don't wish death to magazines either. :thumb: I had a couple of subscriptions at one point and both of which were used to look at all the pretty pics while on the crapper. :) As for finding info about my bike or riding areas close by, the mags aren't of much help. Anywho...Don't take this as a slam about TWMX. I honestly haven't had the chance to read your mag as of yet. Most of my worthless opinion is formulated from other mags. :confused:

 

[MrLuckey]

I wouldn't be so quick to say the mags will be around forever. I am waiting for the DRN streaming video library so I can watch Eric, Rich and Jeremy step me through a valve adjustment or seal change. Kiwi will soon be posting high res video ride reports. Everyone in the chat room will have web cams (full audio and video). Technology will continue to rapidly evolve, we're all going to have high speed color laser prints, 1 gig wireless internet connections and terabytes of storage. The upside and future of internet websites is boundless. I can't imagine how magazines are going to compete and I'd be worried if I was a magazine without an internet plan.

What about other media outlets? Television coverage? I am still in shock that someone isn't already streaming free SX/MX live to all of us.

 

[Timr]

Yeah Eddie, technology changes and advances everything.  Now, if only Okie would run a mirror text only version of DRN, I could read and reply on my Blackberry.  That's as portable as an actual magazine.  I actually read a lot of websites on my Blackberry.  Yeah, conection spead can be kinda slow sometime, but when I'm sitting on an airplane or delayed in an airport, I can find out sports scores, read USA Today, and search for things that I'm curious about.  These sites have good PDA/Blackberry formats:  USA Today, ESPN.com, Mapquest, Google, and many more.

 

[dirty~d~]

Just wait until the enviromentalists decide to push to make all printed mags and newspapers ILLEGAL. Don't say it'll never happen cause we all know not to put it past them to do such a thing to save the trees.

Sooner or later printed reading and reference materials will be a thing of the past anyway. Bill Gates is going to see to it. :cool:

 

[dirt bike dave]

Sorry to say, but by the time the enviros make magazines illegal, they will have long since closed our riding areas.  

 

[MDA]

Well, I for one am impressed that Swap took the time to clarify/debate the issue here on DRN. I buy two magazines regularly, Transworld and REV. I enjoy Transworld's sense of humour and coverage (despite the Freestyle articles). I also enjoy the posters (both sides). I also find that TMX has great photography (eye candy... and not just the ladies.).

I regularly ride at a track and I appreciate the skill it takes to race and I enjoy reading about it. With that being said, I don't race MX. That is why I like REV. I'm a trail rider. I ride rutty, muddy, rooty, nasty Eastern Canadian trails and I like it. I clog my KDX with mud and do my best submarine impressions by submerging my green mule until the lights are under water.

Dirt Rider and Dirt Bike do some coverage of off-road racing events, which is cool, but I find the magazines lacking.


Where am I going with all this you ask. If I could only have one source of dirt bike info, I'd pick DRN over all the mags.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know what you are thinking. Don't ride me over the subscription thing. I fully intend to do it. I've just not gotten around to it.

-Mark-

 

[HomeMadeSin]

I agree on the decline of dirtbike media.  It turns my stomach to read the DB subscription that my father got me for Xmas.  It WILL NOT be renewed.  The reviews are weak, content is even weaker.  The buyer's guides outsuck a black hole.

Anyway, I had access to the publication figures back in 2000.  Here's the 1st half of 2000: magazine:subscriptions-% change since last year with negative in parenthesis/single copy sales-%change last year with negative changes in ()

Dirt Bike: 33,544-(8%)/59,504-(3.3%)

Dirt Rider: 164,541-24.2%/44,712-2.0%

Dirt Wheels: 39,863-12.6%/75,380-14.9%

Motocross Action: 26,687-(7.0%)/64,841-(0.2%)

Motorcyclist: 191,741-3.7%/65,462-1.6%

for reference:

Motor Trend: 1,106,518-(1.7%)/157,207-2.6%

Playboy: 2,540,639-(1.2%)/474,173-(30.3%) :thumb:

 

[RJ-KDX]

I totally agree with you guys on the "Do as we say, not as we do attitude" that most magazines have. I buy them purely for the entertainment value, at least that's what I tell my wife.

My list would be:
Dirtrider- more woods articles(what I do mostly)
TWMX- some good how to's; great chick shots; mainly mx
RacerX- again same thing
MXA- same here; too censored though
And some others I can't think of right now.

Magazines are the same as people you meet on the net. Some people are helpful, while others are "I know everything so don't even bother with writing a reply".

Both magazines and the net are powerful information tools, but they need to be taken with a grain of salt.