bedell99

~SPONSOR~
May 3, 2000
788
0
Has anyone actually wondered how they get so much power out those factory engines? I was watching the glen helen race on tv this weekend and seeing those 125's pull up that huge hill was simply amazing. So I started thinking to my self. Do they use special gas, is there porting that much different, does that extra 2 oz. they knocked off by using titanium make them go so much faster? I'm a firm believer that the reason why they don't show any internals to mags when they test those bikes is I think they would come up short a couple of millimeters if someone measured the bore of there bike. I just got my engine bored and ported to 144cc and can honestly tell you that no matter how fast you think your legal 125 is, there is no way you will beat me a drag race. (Maybe in the corners, but not in a straight line) I truely think that "most" of the factory teams are cheating. I know this is a bold statement, but till the the AMA tells me otherwise and starts checking cylinders that is the only way those 125's will be competitive in the pro class. I'm not saying they are running 167's, but I really think that 134's and 144's are in most of there bikes. I know that a 134cc engine is legal in the "amatuer" ranks but not in the pro class. Just some food for thought.

Erik
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dirt bike dave

Sponsoring Member
May 3, 2000
5,349
3
I would be VERY surprised if the factories are running illegal displacement at the nationals.  It is so easy to pull a 2 stroke apart, and they would get tons of negative publicity and have to forfeit points if they got caught.

So your 144cc is about 15% bigger and maybe makes 10% more power than a 'regular' 125.  You don't think that the factory mechanics can coax at least that much power out of their bikes?  

I think you are really underestimating the factories and the top tuners.  Remember, their engines only have to survive one race at a time, so they can build them to the extremes.  
 

bedell99

~SPONSOR~
May 3, 2000
788
0
All I have to say is when was the last time you had access to the pits and "watched" as they ripped down an engine. Have you ever seen an AMA offical with a caliper in one hand and cylinder in the other and as for the tuners of factory teams are you saying they are "so" much better than a guy like Eric Gorr. There is to much money on the line for an AMA offical to go checking each of the bikes, I really believe they just turn the other cheek, but then again I'm a just a regular guy with an opinion.

Erik
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JG

Super Power AssClown
Aug 17, 1999
23
0
with the porting, compression, and fuel those bikes are using it wouldn't suprise me if the horse power was in the low 40 range...almost a stock 250<p align=right>06-01-2000 :Edited
 

BigBore

Member
Jun 16, 1999
693
0
Yup...40hp and 0 ft/lbs of torque!  A few years back at Glen Helen (when they still ran the racers up the really steep part of Mt. St. Helen), some 125 riders had to try twice to make it up it.  And still, watching this year's Glen Helen race, the 125's couldn't start out on a hill.  

------------------
Kevin  #28K
'99 XR600R
Its better to be a racer for a moment than a spectator for life.


<p align=right>06-01-2000 :Edited
 

Ol'89r

LIFETIME SPONSOR
Jan 27, 2000
6,961
45
The first three finishers of each class are torn down and checked at a national.&nbsp;&nbsp;(Or at least they used to be.)&nbsp;&nbsp;The factorys use many little tricks in their engines but none that are illegal. The first thing the AMA checks is the bore and stroke.
"Old age and treachery, sumthin, sumthin, can't remember the rest."
Ol'89r
 

bedell99

~SPONSOR~
May 3, 2000
788
0
I really don't care how your good your porting, how high your compression and special your race gas is. There is absolutly no way you can coax out nearly 40 horsepower out of a 125cc motor. Think about what you guyz are saying. The main reason why people use race gas in a single with high compression is to stop detonation. Yes race gas does have special properties to maybe at most give you an extra pony, but that's it and if they are using special gas with additives thats not allowed under AMA rules wouldn't that be cheating. I would love to hear from an professional engine tuner on how exactly you can pump out nearly 40 horse power out of 125, because I know what his/hers answer would be. I'm going to the southwick national in 2 weeks and I'm going to ask an AMA offical the rules of how bikes are checked and when they are checked and how often. Like most of the things that fans want to know from the AMA, I will pobably just be ignored.

Erik
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JG

Super Power AssClown
Aug 17, 1999
23
0
now that I think about it, 40 may be just a little high
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. I would say that they're pushing very close to it though<p align=right>06-01-2000 :Edited
 

SUnruh

Member
Aug 24, 1999
49
0
bedell99,
here is an idea for ya.

pony up the bucks to the AMA and file a protest against Talon Vollands bike.&nbsp;&nbsp;tell them you want the fuel checked and the displacement checked.
 

AJ Waggoner

Crash Test Dummy
Nov 5, 1999
4,368
34
Erik,

The Pros are checked in the same way as the riders are on the AMA amateur level.
ANYTIME someone( has to be a rider entered in that class that day)&nbsp;&nbsp;officially protests and puts the money up.
It does happen,and they also tear down a few top finishes randomly thru the season.Yes, I have seen them( Duke,etc) with calipers,but the rider or mechanic is required to tear down the bike.
There is NO overbore limit allowed in Pro competition..not even the usual .080 allowed in amateur.
A 125cc bike cannot be anything over 125cc.period.

That said;
I feel there a few 125 big bores out there and mostly not protested with a "gentlemans agreement" between the riders.I mean if you protest someone isnt someone else going to protest you?

However, I SERIOUSLY DOUBT that the factories are running this way..
Their riders are very likely to finish up front and get tore down at random anyway.Also much more likely to be protested.

Also keep in mind there still is a "claiming rule" on parts and bike.
If you are entered and feel a guy has something way beyond the limits post the cash and the bike or parts are yours.
I'm surprised we dont see more of that happening.

Amateur:
Also I'm not sure that a 134cc bike is legal in AMA 125cc Amateur racing..it really depends on the original OEM size of the bore and stroke.( Thats different for every manufactuer)
You are allowed .080 over OEM bore&nbsp;&nbsp;in 125 class.On some bikes that would be a 135cc ? on some it would be a 129cc ? depends on the bore verses stroke configuration.( long rod or short rod style motor)

The big bore 125's&nbsp;&nbsp;are popular in the VET classes for sure.

AJ Waggoner
AMA Congressman
 

AJ Waggoner

Crash Test Dummy
Nov 5, 1999
4,368
34
Sunruh! lol good idea!

but you have to be entered in that class to file the official protest or a claiming rule.

I have thought of doing it myself in the 250cc class just to become
"in-famous" for a day or week.
frown2.gif

Maybe at red bud or troy this year.
xsmile.gif
hmm How would it be to have Tortellis bike for a week?
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Rich Rohrich

Moderator / BioHazard
LIFETIME SPONSOR
Jul 27, 1999
22,820
16,889
Chicago
Do any of you guys remember when someone paid the claiming fee and bought a Honda Works bike? It was a big deal and they tore it completely down in Cycle or Cycle World.&nbsp;&nbsp;I think the rider who claimed the bike was eventually found in the trunk of a Civic, but that's unconfirmed
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SUnruh

Member
Aug 24, 1999
49
0
AJ,
merely details man, merely details.

get a no-name rider (say 20th place or so) to do it FOR you.
give him the cash for the protest and have them do it.

bingo, valid protest and then all the bovine feces hits the rotating Nitrogen/Oxygen/Carbon Dioxide mixture displacer.
 

bedell99

~SPONSOR~
May 3, 2000
788
0
This is why I love this site so much. I get such great responses. How much money do you think I have to put up to claim a bike and have it ripped down. If it is reasonable, why not do it. I might just have a factory bike in my garage for a couple of day's. About the 134cc bike, you are absolutly right, the AMA rule allows a bikes cylinder to be bores at .080 over. My bike has 54mm bore, which if bored 2mm over would give it a 134cc engine. I never thought about if the bike came with a smaller bore and longer stroke, but getting back to the factory bikes. How do they make such unbelievable power from a "legal" 125cc engine. Please don't respond that the use race gas or they up the compression. There has to be a trick maybe in the porting or exhaust valves. Next topic I wouldn't mind discussing is why don't they mimic the setting's they use in the race bike, tone it down so the cylinder can use pump gas and not detonate and throw it into nect years stock bike.

Erik
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BruceKLX

Member
May 20, 2000
12
0
You can't put up the money to protest a bike unless you are racing. It would be nice if you could just enter the 250 class for the day. First you have to qaulify. The AMA puts the top few bikes in an impound area immediately following the race. I have seen it at every Southwick National I have attended. I would assume there is a certain amount of time allowed for the protest as the bikes don't sit there very long. Also you don't claim the bike for a few days, the teardown would be done immediately so they could make a decision whether or not the bike is legal. I am going to Southwick with a friend who qaulifies every year. I get a pit pass as a mechanic, I will ask around or get a copy of the rule and post it here after the race. I have never seen em tear one down but I'm sure it does happen.

------------------
BruceKLX
Thumpin on em
 

bigwillyd

Member
May 24, 2000
2
0
Just on the race gas thing,&nbsp;&nbsp;I may be crazy or it may be some odd coincidence but my friend had to run race gas in his CR250 and when he sold it he gave me like 3-4 gallons.&nbsp;&nbsp;The bike would bring out crazy power at odd moments.&nbsp;&nbsp;It sent my bike flyin through the air off a whoop one time.&nbsp;&nbsp;I think it must do something more than a pony or two.&nbsp;&nbsp;
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bedell99

~SPONSOR~
May 3, 2000
788
0
Thats almost my entire argument. Who has saw them tear them down?

Erik
kx 144

PS Why was this post moved Ivan???
 

AJ Waggoner

Crash Test Dummy
Nov 5, 1999
4,368
34
Erik,
In AMA Pro competition.
It is $100 to protest a riders engine.(tech)
You have to be entered in that class that day ( so at a national you would have to make it thru the qualifiers )
and you have to specify ,in writing, what rule the engine in question is aledgedly not in compliance with.
This has to be done within 30 minutes of the posted "finish" results.
Pretty simple,same as the AMA Amateur rules.

On the "claiming rule" I could find nothing in National MX , maybe they got rid of that?

It is still in Superbike and other forms of AMA Pro comp though?
So my guess is it still exists but possibly as a supplemental rule.

In superbike or super sport Road Racing the amount is $1500 OVER the machines suggested retail to claim it.
IE: If your protesting a CBR 600F3 and it retails for $8,000 you have to put up $9500.

This was basically how the old MX rule worked that used to be in place..I'll ask around and see if it still is.
 

Honda2

Member
Oct 14, 1999
4
0
1500$ over retail uh ?&nbsp;&nbsp;I read in a article that the Honda Factory bikes were around 80,000$..&nbsp;&nbsp;All I have to do is find someone to qualify and file a protest and that 1500$ over retail is looking pretty good.&nbsp;&nbsp;
 

bedell99

~SPONSOR~
May 3, 2000
788
0
I think that 80,000 is the cost of the bike with all the R&D goodies that goes along with it, which cost a hell of alot of money. My hunch is you can claim it for around $7500.(~6000 + 1500)The thing is I wouldn't claim a 250, I would claim a 125cc. The reason is power. Any 250 can be competitive due to the fact of the higher power output stock. All you 250 guyz know this. In the 125cc class, a rider of the same skill, riding an inferior bike is at a tremendous disadvantage. All you 125cc guyz know this, but since I'm not qualifing at any national, unless I secretly poison all the riders, I can never find out. The thing is I would "never" claim or accuse a person at an amateur level race, unless it was some smuck that rides the 125C class with a hopped up 167cc that should be riding in the expert class. It would be fun teaching him a lesson. As for racing amateur races all I want to do is have fun and hope the guy/girl next to me wants the same. I really don't care if your bike is a bit overbored, as long as your not trying to make a living out of racing and all you are looking for is a good time racing with your buddies. I think most of the people here would be on the same page as me.

Erik
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James980

Member
Dec 29, 1999
282
0
Here's the info on claiming from the AMA *amateur* rule book. I don't know what goes for the pros:

"E. Claiming
1. All sanctioned dirt track, short track, scrambles, motocross, road race, hillclimb, and youth meets are claiming meets. The claiming price shall be 30% over manufacturers suggested retail price using the Kelly Blue Book or NADA appraisal guide and include the complete motorcycle or minicycle.
Dirt track, short track, and scrambles claims will be for the engine including electronics, carburetion, and exhaust. Claiming prices for dirt track, short track, and scrambles are established in the following schedule:
0-250cc-$2,000
251-504cc-$4,000
505-Up (single)-$6,000
750cc Multi-cylinder-$17,500
Vintage class equipment will be excluded from the claiming rule.

2. Any rider (claimant) may enter a claim for a motorcycle (or minicycle) ridden in an event in which the claimant has competed. A claim must be entered with the referee after the meet has been completed, but no later than 30 minutes afterward. The referee then notifies the owner of the claimed motorcycle and may take possession of it.
3. A claim must be accompanied by cash, certified check or bank draft. The owner of the claimed machine must immediately deliver it intact, along with a clear title or bill of sale.
4. If more than one claim is received for the same motorcycle, a drawing will be held to determine the successful claimant.
5. If a rider whose motorcycle is claimed refuses to comply, he must forfeit his trophy, is disqualified from the meet and will be suspended for one year.
6. A rider may not enter a claim on his own equipment."

AJ, when's the last time this happened in D-17?

James
00CR250
 

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