lifting??
- Thread starter cr25096er
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Sure I'll take some! :moon: :)
It's true that there is no love lost between the WPPA(West Point Protective Association) and "Mustangs" but from my experiance prior enlisted that go the route of OCS or ROTC turn out to be the more popular officers. Granted its not a contest when command is considered but being prior enlisted certainly does give you some "people skills" that the various "Charm Schools" tend to over look. :thumb:
- Jun 26, 2001
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ok kids, i'm only on my first 64oz mug o coffee so i'm a lil' cranky.my bonfides speak for themselves,and if not, stand next to me sometime and i'll fill ya in. i am posting this on a motor-cycle board, therefore i must assume anyone asking about conditioning is doing so in that vane. if not,and i'm wrong. then, well, head on over to the fly fishing board and ask how to blast the whoops. everything okie said is correct...everything okie said is wrong.i wanted to max the push ups in the army pt test, as a young'in i would do push ups to faliure,every day. the amount would gradually increase and,presto, i maxed the test. later in my life i found this boring. i wanted some fireworks, big bang stuff. so i set my sites on benching 405 lbs. benching is the same movement as pushups, about the same muscle groups. so i trained very heavy with 3-5 reppatitions of that heavy weight finishing off with one rep max. bingo, i pushed 405lbs, also i maxed the push ups. method #1 high reps(which by the way did increase strength) #2 low reps(which by the way increased reps). the moralle of this storie is that there is more than one way to skin a cat. but if you want to make cat mittens you don't skin it with a stick of dynamite, and if you just want to eat some cat puree, you can skin with a sledge hammer.if this thread goes long enough some college kid is gonna come in and start talking about protien synthises, ideal muscular recuperation times, glucose levels,insilin levels, blah blah blah. look, the are all kinds of easy answers and no easy answers. now get, it's time for formation and i gotta go see the old man first.
- Jun 26, 2001
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and another thing, that whole push the face in the cake crap. your buddy is lucky he was dealling with the silent pros, or what ever they call something long hard and full of seemen, that woulda' got a much different, less pleasant response from even the cheeseiest of infantry butters.they might have called the nazi subs wolf packs, but a rifle platoon is the closest to a pack i've seen in humans. ya better have wits and brawn to be the alpha, and no alpha wanna be /newbie would allow himself to ba assaulted with out much battle. we had many a physical confrontation and not one ,because of or lack of results,left the platoon level. soory, nuthin personal.it's just that story rubbed me the wrong way.this comes from a troop who was jumped into the 82d. what starts out as a cherry belly ussually ends up as a brawl.we had one lad lay in wait in his room, in came the fellows for a nice lil' cherry belly, up pop pvt had'enough with his e-tool. he broke one troops' nose and gave the other a gash in his arm requiring about 100+/- stitches. no repurcusions. i like that troop. a lil skinny, a lil short, but crafty as hell. :thumb:
The cake thing would have gotten someone busted hard in my unit. Guaranteed Article 15 and maybe a month or so of IT for good measure. More than anything, my comment about newbie officers came from the fact that when I was in, there were still a lot of active NCO's that pulled tours in Vietnam. Usually E-7's and up. Most of the higher ranking CO's were also vets. Hardcore individuals. Been there, done that. It was always entertaining to see someone right out of the Point practicing his new-found forced respect, attempting to dress down a combat-hardened Master Sarge double his age. Didn’t take them long to figure it all out though.
Lesson number one for Mr. Butter Bars:
What happens amongst the crew stays with the crew.
ALL crew members get their initiation. The severity of the initiation is directly related to attitude. His was relatively easy, in fact it was cake. :cool: A ring knocker demanding respect prior to earning it was treated much differently and rather harshly. Proportional hazing if you will. Maybe not PC, but very effective when properly applied.
These lessons paid many dividends outside of the aircrew environment by fostering a “team first always” attitude.
What happens amongst the crew stays with the crew.
ALL crew members get their initiation. The severity of the initiation is directly related to attitude. His was relatively easy, in fact it was cake. :cool: A ring knocker demanding respect prior to earning it was treated much differently and rather harshly. Proportional hazing if you will. Maybe not PC, but very effective when properly applied.
These lessons paid many dividends outside of the aircrew environment by fostering a “team first always” attitude.
Um, hello, there's no excuse! Enlisted don't just haze officers to put them in their place! I would have burned him and everyone else in that "crew!" You all would have spent time in the brig! There's a hundred other ways to "put someone in their place:" assault isn't the best one of them.
It all comes down to earning respect... NCO's can be guilty of the same thing; thinking stripes automatically equal respect. My 2nd Lt. really had it goin' on. Relied on those with experience regardless of rank and lead by example. His repect came in short order.
Can't comment how it works in the other branches, but am reasonably sure that putting your hands on an CO or NCO will result in bad things :)
Can't comment how it works in the other branches, but am reasonably sure that putting your hands on an CO or NCO will result in bad things :)
Pssst...YOU are missing the point.
It just so happened that this was an officer, really didn’t matter though as initiations were something ALL new crewmembers went through. Rank mattered not. This was also just the first phase in seeing how someone reacts to pressure and ultimately if they are a team player.
Mr. Butter Bars was fine with his initiation in a matter of a few flights. Why? Because he quickly understood that his reaction would impact the respect the crew gave him in the future. BTW: He was and is a fine officer.
In an environment such as we were in, the crew was first always and the rank structure secondary. Everyone understood that the conditions changed once the main cabin door opened or closed. Camaraderie, teamwork and mutual respect were the end results. Guess you’d have to live it to understand it. :thumb:
This isn't unique...just take a look at the aircrews in WWII.
- Apr 17, 2002
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How he reacts under pressure? How is shoving his face in cake going to test THAT?
The respect goes to the rank, not the person... or did you miss that lesson in basic training?
Teamwork is all fine and dandy and that's great that the crew comes first, but guess what... you can't just throw rank structure out the window when ever you feel like it. It's there for a reason.
So if the aircrews had you hold a live grenade in your mouth for xx seconds to 'test how you react under pressure' the boys in your unit would be doing the same, right? :|
This does NOT sound like the military my father fought for, nor is it the military I served for. :|
And I don't see where ANY OF THIS has to do with weight lifting.
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I can understand some type of harmless initiation, but assault? Especially an officer! There's somethings that just aren't acceptable!
Probably because he had been assaulted once by his crew and his CO wouldn't do anything about it!
I'm not trying to argue that, but it wasn't because he had his face stuffed into a cake!
The crew IS always first! Those three things you named are extremely important....but, once again, there are better ways to accomplish that, without losing respect for your officers! It would be extremely hard for me as an enlisted NCO or otherwise to respect an officer that has been assaulted and failed to crush each and every one of you (physically and/or career-wise)! Now, charges would be a little extreme if it happened amongst the "crew" only, if he were to have beat at least one of you to near death and the only way to save that crewmembers life were to break both his arms in order to pry his fingers from said crewmembers skull! Otherwise, you can call it what you want -- I call it unsat!
I think YOU are missing the point! A lot has changed since WWII. I think you would fall pretty short if trying to compare yourself and the training you received, to the environment they were forced to live in!
That behavior doesn't fly! Listen to Okie...you might try that in the Navy and think you trained a JG, but I would dare someone to try that amidst the men and women I've served with! You and your guys were real cool! :thumb:
- Jun 26, 2001
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ok now god-@#$@-it. everyone into the bear pit.take it easy on scooter, he pointed out one moment...hopefully not the prodest. but hey..thingys all worked out ok, right? we beat the soviets. as far as respect the rank..ok, what ever. i know the drill. i kinda always looked at rank as the acsess pass, the talk stick. you got to speak first and last on any object, woh the object turned out was because of the respect given the man. yeh, the nam vets "ruined" me for good in the 82d. they put all kinds of crazey ideas in my head.ha! mission first people always.blah blah blah. the fact of the matter is, you will never succeed(damn spelling!) any mission if your men are not behind it 100% intimidation through rank never got that far. me personally, beat everyone till the moaning stopped!ha! i would like to express my attitude by use of a line (somewhat alterd) from hamburger hill, from ssg whatshisname to his new guys "listen, i'm gonna keep you alive and you're gonna keep me alive.(my part now) i'm going to train you how to fight hard and win, giving you the advantage, and you guys are going to save my sorry @$$ every time" NOW! like i said, all rank off, into the pit kiddies, ....let's have some fun" :aj:
Hey... I knew Officers that were really close to their men, something like the cake thing could be pulled-off without anyone losing respect, but man, noob officers sure have the gusto flowing!
There are also "traditions" in some units, unwritten rules, maybe this was one of 'em.
There are also "traditions" in some units, unwritten rules, maybe this was one of 'em.
A lot of those traditions, today, fall under "hazing." Which, now, is very bad juju if caught.
But, you're saying "Officers that were really close to their men..." Well, I suspect he was implying that the enlisted men were "testing the waters" so to speak with a new Lt and "putting him in his place." If the enlisted guys KNOW their Lt. good enough, they will know if they can get away with that or not. Most new (new to the fleet or new to the unit) would not let something like that fly. If they did, how could you respect that? You haven't had the opportunity to build that camraderie yet, to warrant that type of behavior.
But, you're saying "Officers that were really close to their men..." Well, I suspect he was implying that the enlisted men were "testing the waters" so to speak with a new Lt and "putting him in his place." If the enlisted guys KNOW their Lt. good enough, they will know if they can get away with that or not. Most new (new to the fleet or new to the unit) would not let something like that fly. If they did, how could you respect that? You haven't had the opportunity to build that camraderie yet, to warrant that type of behavior.
Hey….Sarge & Okie are onto to something here. :thumb:
No kidding, this was NOT about disrespect. I came back to post and see you guys have been getting some reps and sets in with the keyboard. ;) Here’s a little clarification.
dirty~d~/jboomer,
You folks are reading WAY too much into this. You guys seem to think I’m an advocate of disrespecting officers. You are way off base, but with a snap judgment based on a few posts taken without knowledge of the context of the event… I can see it happening.
First, this aircrew consists of 12 (5 Os, 7 Es). None of the events would have taken place except in the presence of these 12 crewmembers and only when the main cabin door was closed. Anywhere else would not have been tolerated. Yup, possibly Art. 15 or worse.
Secondly, two of the folks in the galley at the table aside from Mr. Butter Bars were Os (O3 and an O4). You assumed (correctly this time) that the individual that provided the initiation was enlisted. However, an officer would have just as likely done the same in the environment stated above. Again, you’d have to live it to understand it.
Operating in close knit environments under certain circumstances often require a departure from the normal military decorum. If you don’t understand it, it’s likely you never will until you are in the situation.
No kidding, this was NOT about disrespect. I came back to post and see you guys have been getting some reps and sets in with the keyboard. ;) Here’s a little clarification.
dirty~d~/jboomer,
You folks are reading WAY too much into this. You guys seem to think I’m an advocate of disrespecting officers. You are way off base, but with a snap judgment based on a few posts taken without knowledge of the context of the event… I can see it happening.
First, this aircrew consists of 12 (5 Os, 7 Es). None of the events would have taken place except in the presence of these 12 crewmembers and only when the main cabin door was closed. Anywhere else would not have been tolerated. Yup, possibly Art. 15 or worse.
Secondly, two of the folks in the galley at the table aside from Mr. Butter Bars were Os (O3 and an O4). You assumed (correctly this time) that the individual that provided the initiation was enlisted. However, an officer would have just as likely done the same in the environment stated above. Again, you’d have to live it to understand it.
Look at your reaction to reading this. Understand now?
So you are saying that the amount of respect an individual enjoys is limited to their rank? I think not.
Taken out of context you could assume assault in today’s military. Not the case though.
Again, our Mission Commander “welcomed” the Ensign aboard. Our CO never acknowledged the event publicly because being an aviator, he understood the purpose of crew cohesion and that of the event.
Agreed…. If the event took place anywhere other than where it did.
Operating in close knit environments under certain circumstances often require a departure from the normal military decorum. If you don’t understand it, it’s likely you never will until you are in the situation.
You didn't give us a whole lot of "context" to draw from!
Something I didn't add earlier that I should have....SUPERVISED jackassery is fair game! You told us he was a new ensign alone with the crew (never mentioned higher ranking officers) and led me to believe they were putting him in his place (so to speak). But, with your added wordage and my understanding that he wasn't the "new" ensign alone with his enlisted men, a belated....haha!
Something I didn't add earlier that I should have....SUPERVISED jackassery is fair game! You told us he was a new ensign alone with the crew (never mentioned higher ranking officers) and led me to believe they were putting him in his place (so to speak). But, with your added wordage and my understanding that he wasn't the "new" ensign alone with his enlisted men, a belated....haha!
You and others posted about "butter bars" and it brought back this memory. I posted what I thought was the funny portion. Damn...next thing I know I'm a shameful, officer hating, disrespectful vet that everyone shuns. Yee friggin haw! :yeehaw:
It’s all good….power of the internet baby! :thumb:
You should have seen his face when he opened his eyes. Like this>> :eek: except brown. :)
- Jun 26, 2001
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cr250, yes and NO! jeeze, i do know what you mean.did you work till muscle failure or trama? fly's are more of a refining,sculpting movement where'as benching is a combo move. look buddy, there's a big battle going on here, i'm trying to spare all innocent civvies any carnage. go read a book and find out the basics and quit asking every individual aspect. it is recomended for optimul muscle recoup after trama 5 days, for failure it can be dayly ...now! boomers' ready for a capntains' mast. i can read it in the posts.dang ole navy guys. dirty d, ease up a bit, just a smidge, just a lil' bit, from the book.sometimes newly graded leaders tend to go too hard on the respect thing so they can get the job done, but it comes off not so well. just a hint, not saying you are or are not, we can all agree we hate scooter. there! i feel better already. his back points are well taken as the tight nit group thing alot of the protocal is unnesessary.(damn spelling) but he got dragged over the coals, and to be honest, i always like when that happens to somebody other than me! yes! ok, i'm finished hateing scooter now. hey, anybets boomer is a active duty fleet comander?..i'm kidding, jeez. as to you mr okie..hmm, i'm coming up with a blamk on the wise cracks now. damn, coming up short. not soo good. i need a nap now.
