Midwest Enduro Classes for '08

Smit-Dog · Aug 14, 2007

There's some discussion going on with a bunch of the midwest districts (14, 15, 16, 17, 22) on trying to align our classes beginning with the 2008 season. Depending on the outcome of that effort, a proposal may also be submitted to the AMA for some class structure changes at the National enduro level. I'm bringing this up now because any AMA proposal for next year needs to be reviewed in August.

I'm looking to get some feedback on what riders think of the current class structure in D-14, class structures in other districts, and the national classes.

How can we bring all these different class structures more in-line with each other? What classes can / should be dropped? Merged? Create any new / replacement class(es) based on age rather than displacement?

Some class stats to help provide some background info for the discussion...

'07 class rider counts to-date for D-14 enduro events:
http://www.d14enduro.org/results/2007/2007_d-14_ama_series_stats.pdf

Current class structure for 5 midwest districts:
http://www.d14enduro.org/rule_proposals/d14-15-16-17-22_class_structure.pdf

We have 21 different classes between the 5 Midwest districts, yet we only have 6 of them that are common between us.

'07 National Class Counts To-Date:
http://www.d14enduro.org/rule_proposals/2007_national_class_counts.pdf

(Sorted 2 ways - By class and by popularity)

fatherandson · Aug 14, 2007

I think there needs to be a AA class and a C class. I like the way we have the C class split in D14. I think the Super Senior class needs to be split between A and B - too many really fast guys have turned 50 - Mastin, Kirkwood, Mahnke and Fredette next year.
Two suggestions....maybe our AA class is too big with the number of dual district events. We tried to reduce the size in the past and it did not pass. # 2) Maybe we should combine the 200 and 250 classes in both A and B.
The districts should be consistent on the age breaks on the Vet, Senior, Super Senior and Masters classes. Again, I think the D14 method is simple and makes sense.
At this time I am not in favor of removing all displacement classes to be replaced with only age based classes.

Fred T · Aug 14, 2007

-I pretty much agree with Mike. Although I don't know about dropping the A 200 class but the 4 stroke class is dead. The enduro population is aging so the older classes are getting more saturated and competative.

I like the D 14 set up and I think the AMA should look at it.

I don't think it should be grouped into just ages either.

Smit-Dog · Aug 15, 2007

Thanks for the feedback...

I really like the D-14 classes this year as well, but the challenge is that not all districts have the rider base to support all the classes we do.

We have the largest number of classes... Some of them like SS A/B and C Jr/Sr work well and I think could be adopted in other districts successfully (along with SS A/B nationally), but the other less popular classes like A/B 200 could be combined into some other category. This would reduce the number of classes we have (helping to align midwest districts), while still maintaining practical class counts in less populated districts. Instead of an A/B 200, A/B 250, and A/B Open, I was thinking an A/B 0-250 (lites class? :whoa: ) and A/B Open.

Given the class counts and the general trend, splitting SS into A/B like we do in D14 makes sense for other districts and at the national level.

fatherandson said:
... maybe our AA class is too big with the number of dual district events. We tried to reduce the size in the past and it did not pass.

How did we try to reduce the size? Top X instead of Top XX? Why didn't it pass? Do you think it's still too large? Seems to be about the same size as the C-JR class at most events.

And agreed... At the very least use the same age cut-offs for classes.

Fred T · Aug 15, 2007

I think Mike means to just take like the top 8-10 each year for AA, all others remain A riders.

I suppose a 0-250 and 251-open would work. HP is not much of an issue at an enduro.
So then we have:
AA
0-250 A-B
251-Open A-B
Vet A-B
Sen A-B
SS--A-B
Masters
C Jr
C Sr
Womens

15 classes

INCA · Aug 15, 2007

What are the other districts objections, if any, to the D-14 structure? Combining 200 & 250 should not be a problem.

Young Ted

Smit-Dog · Aug 15, 2007

INCA said:
What are the other districts objections, if any, to the D-14 structure?

They don't have enough riders to support all our classes.

Fred T · Aug 15, 2007

Smit-Dog said:
They don't have enough riders to support all our classes.

The AMA has 16 classes and no "C" class so the above would be 1 less class and include a full "C" class.

bbarel · Aug 15, 2007

Would like to see better alignment across districts and nationals. I think it is good to break out A,B SS and C Jr Sr. No need for 200 class. Don't see the need for any disp classes except alignment with other districts and nationals.

Smit-Dog · Aug 15, 2007

Fred T said:
Smit-Dog said:

They don't have enough riders to support all our classes.

Click to expand...

The AMA has 16 classes and no "C" class so the above would be 1 less class and include a full "C" class.

:think: ... Not sure why I'm quoted as part of that response...

Smit-Dog · Aug 15, 2007

So let's hear it from the 200 class guys.... Some vet and senior guys run this class as well as the young guns. Where would they go, and would there be any whining?

UP Magoo · Aug 15, 2007

I like the idea of "Lites" and "Open" -> get rid of 200 class, Open class, and the 4 stroke class.

Lites should be 0-200cc (both 2 & 4 stroke) and Open should be 201cc+ (both 2 and 4 stroke).

I don't have a problem with SS-A, I think it should be added at the National level...maybe drop the age to 50-57 like in D-16.

Lots of early 50's guys are still VERY competitive! :cool:

Smit-Dog · Aug 15, 2007

bbarel said:
Don't see the need for any disp classes except alignment with other districts and nationals.

Doesn't mean it's a true "need", other than to just maintain the status quo.

Shagy100 · Aug 15, 2007

wel being that ive raced B200 and probably racing A200 next yearI think its a bad idea to get rid of those classes. I dont agree with what fred said earlier in this thread that an enduro isnt about horespower, mainly because ive raced bothe 250 and 125 and theres things i can do on a 250 that i cant do on a 125. I think if your gonna make combined classes you could do like A "B lights" wich would be 125s 200s and 250 four-stroke And a "B open" wick would be 250 two stroke and up. i think that might make it more fair and bring your class size up maybe

Fred T · Aug 15, 2007

Smit-Dog said:
:think: ... Not sure why I'm quoted as part of that response...

Because the other districts "think" they cant fill up 16 classes and my suggestion had 1 less class in it yet a full break down of age classes including C class. Not directed at "you" but at "them" being the other districts.

Smit-Dog · Aug 15, 2007

Shagy100 said:
I dont agree with what fred said earlier in this thread that an enduro isnt about horespower, mainly because ive raced bothe 250 and 125 and theres things i can do on a 250 that i cant do on a 125.

Are you implying that you'd be faster on 250? If so, you'd have that choice in a 0-250 "lites" class.

Would Burleson be faster on a 125 2st or 250 4st? Or a 250 4st?

Would Paul Bucher be faster on a 250 2st compared to the 125 he now rides?

Would Lafferty be faster on a 250 2st compared to the 400/450?

I don't think horsepower, engine type, or displacement matter all that much in enduro competition. What's far more important is rider skill and mating that skill to the proper bike for that rider - whether that's a 125, 450, or anything in between.

Smit-Dog · Aug 15, 2007

Fred T said:
Because the other districts "think" they cant fill up 16 classes and my suggestion had 1 less class in it yet a full break down of age classes including C class. Not directed at "you" but at "them" being the other districts.

Yes, reducing the number will help get us closer to the other districts with fewer classes. The thing is that some can't even justify AA or Vet classes... and even without these (as an example), the A200 class may only have 3 riders.

Hopefully we've bottomed out as far as enduro attendance and will see an upward swing to fill these classes in other districts.

We may not be able to get 100% alignment in '08, but getting closer will help.

TCTrailrider · Aug 15, 2007

Super Senior C sounds good to me. A bunch of old guys with no pride.

KTM Mike · Aug 15, 2007

This is a bit off topic from where this thread has gone so far....but that hasnt stopped me before...

Somewhere I recall F&S asking for some input on getting more riders from FES events into the "adult" enduros. Here is an idea - what about what is essentially a "FES Transfer Class" 16 or older, must have raced at least 1 FES event within past X years, can ride in FES Transfer for a maximum of X (?) events or X years. If a rider does not meet that "eligibility" criteria, they must enter a "regular" D-14 class. Make the FES transfer class available at a limited specified number of events each year, where maybe they run a shorter course, or one with cut offs for them. Have their series have fewer events in it than the regular classes/series. ie - like this year we have 10/7, run the FES Transfer class at say 6 of those 10, with 2 drops. Otherwise, treat this class just like any other class in D-14. Same speed average etc.

Just a thought....I am pretty sure such a class would see my son Mitch in it next year. You could promote it at the FES events. My guess is you would likely see a number of the adult riders doing only FES events step up to these. The adult classes often have the largest number of entries in the FES events (some of which, but not all, is a result of them riding with a kid...but it seems to me there are a number of "solo" adult riders in these events.)

Smit-Dog · Aug 15, 2007

We are fortunately starting to see some FES graduates try some AMA enduros! I think what you're suggesting Mike has positive intentions, but my feeling is that the C-JR class is already in place for FES graduates. It doesn't mean that once you try an AMA enduro that's all you can or should do. I suspect that FES graduates will begin to ride in select AMA enduros, while still competing in the FES events. At some point the cross-over will be complete.

As far as the large number of adults who ride the FES for points, I don't see as many of these guys graduating to the AMA enduros as much as the younger riders will (like Mitch). Younger riders tend to be on a progression path as far as skill and endurance goes (the benefits of youth!), whereas some of the more "seasoned" FES riders are comfortable competing at the FES level and don't have any desire or interest to take it to a different level.

As far as FES adult riders who compete for points in both FES and AMA enduros... :think:

FlyinRyan · Aug 15, 2007

This is great feedback and I'd like to that Bill for taking the lead on this. This is something that I've wanted to see happen for some time and hope we can get 90% close this year.

I've also posted this on my forums page in hopes that other district riders will post up their thoughts as well.

bbarel · Aug 15, 2007

I bet Shaggy wants a "young guys on 125 Kaws" class.

Smit-Dog said:
my feeling is that the C-JR class is already in place for FES graduates.

I agree.

Smit-Dog said:
As far as FES adult riders who compete for points in both FES and AMA enduros... :think:

I don't have any issue with guys competing in both series for points, but I think they better be C riders. This would let them transition to Sunday racing at their own pace (in the spirit of Mike's sugestion), BUT If you have been promoted to B or higher for Sunday then NO WAY you should be chasing FES points.

Shagy100 · Aug 15, 2007

Smit-Dog said:
Are you implying that you'd be faster on 250? If so, you'd have that choice in a 0-250 "lites" class.

Would Burleson be faster on a 125 2st or 250 4st? Or a 250 4st?

Would Paul Bucher be faster on a 250 2st compared to the 125 he now rides?

Would Lafferty be faster on a 250 2st compared to the 400/450?

I don't think horsepower, engine type, or displacement matter all that much in enduro competition. What's far more important is rider skill and mating that skill to the proper bike for that rider - whether that's a 125, 450, or anything in between.

O k but if you want to do a lites style class go with the motocross style class designation in this in stance where you can ride 125 200 or 250F but the 250 ts would be excluded for the 250 and up class

Fred T · Aug 15, 2007

Dustin Gibson was on a 250 F at Harrison and he was flying through the woods. HP is not much of an issue unless there are monster sand washes, huge climbs or lots of open stuff.
Gault won the Jack Pine on a 250 F, beat Bersano on a 450 F.

I think 2 displacement classes will work, because at that point a "C" rider has accumulated enough skill to make the bike choice best for them when they graduate to the "B" class. Some guys do bette ron a 200 than a 250 and some do better on a 250 F than any thing.

Wolverine423 · Aug 15, 2007

bbarel said:
BUT If you have been promoted to B or higher for Sunday then NO WAY you should be chasing FES points.

True story!

If you’re a B or above rider and want to ride with friends or family on Saturday I say ride X or P. This should be enforced ASAP without question.

Midwest Enduro Classes for '08

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