PT Cruiser...I don't get it
- Thread starter motopuffs
- Start date
the PT Cruiser is at least more distinctive than the "New Beetle". Let's face it, both of these are image cars (as are the Viper and Prowler). But the New Beetle is the real disgrace. It's a reskinned, front drive Golf that weighs an additional 400 lbs while giving up cargo capacity/internal volume, and still uses the same Golf engine, so it is slower than a Golf! Talk about all go and no show, that's the one to rag on. Further, it shares nothing mechanically with the rear-drive, rear engine, air cooled Beetle. Porsche managed to evolve the 911 to air cooled status and completely redesign the rear suspension and it's a huge hit, while VW just reskins a Golf. Yet they too have been selling like hotcakes are are responsible for VW's turnaround. Give it some styling and a good stereo and they sell - so apparently that's all a large segment of the market cares about.
I would never buy a PT Cruiser since it is front drive and indeed based on a Neon. But hand it to Chrysler: when is the last time anyone lined up to buy an economy car? Good design and some risk taking paid big here. Not only that, but it's TWO FEET SHORTER than a Neon yet can swallow an 8' 2x4 whole, with the doors shut. It really is more like a mini-minivan, but isn't that a lot more useful than the New Beetle or any other economy car for that matter? And the aftermarket response has been huge, with the Bruiser and many other concepts built off it.
BTW, in case you didn't know it GM recently snagged the Chrysler designer responsible for this cutting edge styling and he's now responsible for Chevy styling. This is great news for all of us Chevy enthusiasts since they build great vehicles but have been pretty stodgy and evolutionary, vs. truly new styling.
The one car I was sad Chrysler didn't get to build due to their acquisition by Benz was the Pronto Spyder. This was a hot little mid-engined, rear drive, supercharged convertible that Chrysler promised to bring out for less than $20K. It looked more like a Porsche Spyder than the Boxster did and I would have lined up to buy one in a heartbeat (no pun intended Chevrolet!).
I would never buy a PT Cruiser since it is front drive and indeed based on a Neon. But hand it to Chrysler: when is the last time anyone lined up to buy an economy car? Good design and some risk taking paid big here. Not only that, but it's TWO FEET SHORTER than a Neon yet can swallow an 8' 2x4 whole, with the doors shut. It really is more like a mini-minivan, but isn't that a lot more useful than the New Beetle or any other economy car for that matter? And the aftermarket response has been huge, with the Bruiser and many other concepts built off it.
BTW, in case you didn't know it GM recently snagged the Chrysler designer responsible for this cutting edge styling and he's now responsible for Chevy styling. This is great news for all of us Chevy enthusiasts since they build great vehicles but have been pretty stodgy and evolutionary, vs. truly new styling.
The one car I was sad Chrysler didn't get to build due to their acquisition by Benz was the Pronto Spyder. This was a hot little mid-engined, rear drive, supercharged convertible that Chrysler promised to bring out for less than $20K. It looked more like a Porsche Spyder than the Boxster did and I would have lined up to buy one in a heartbeat (no pun intended Chevrolet!).
BTW, regarding Chrysler's V10, it was actually the other way around. It was originally designed as a truck engine. When the Viper concept came along in the early 90's they needed a real engine and unfortuately the 426 Hemi wouldn't work for lots of reasons, from emissions to packaging.
So they looked at the engine line-up and decided to modify the truck V10 for the concept, casting it in aluminum and of course changing cams and such. That's why it sounds like a UPS truck. The most popular Viper mod is to swap the exhaust with something like a Borla system that really makes it sound more muscular.
Also, Mopar has brought the 426 street hemi back as a crate engine. Could be fun for taking an old 318 Mopar and making it special. Not only that, they even have a hot rod kit with all the parts and instructions to put it in a Dakota! It's their attempt to bring the street rodding thing to Chrysler products and a broader audience, by making it a pretested bolt on affair. They point out a used Dakota can be had pretty cheap and is strong enough to support the torque, once you swap the driveline components per Chrysler's instructions.
Meanwhile Chevy is casting all aluminum big blocks again. Not a bad time to be a hot rodder -- who would have guessed after what happened in the early '70s that we'd ever see these great offerings again. Geez, we can even add roller cams and fuel injection to make them idle smoothly and put out more power than ever before!
So they looked at the engine line-up and decided to modify the truck V10 for the concept, casting it in aluminum and of course changing cams and such. That's why it sounds like a UPS truck. The most popular Viper mod is to swap the exhaust with something like a Borla system that really makes it sound more muscular.
Also, Mopar has brought the 426 street hemi back as a crate engine. Could be fun for taking an old 318 Mopar and making it special. Not only that, they even have a hot rod kit with all the parts and instructions to put it in a Dakota! It's their attempt to bring the street rodding thing to Chrysler products and a broader audience, by making it a pretested bolt on affair. They point out a used Dakota can be had pretty cheap and is strong enough to support the torque, once you swap the driveline components per Chrysler's instructions.
Meanwhile Chevy is casting all aluminum big blocks again. Not a bad time to be a hot rodder -- who would have guessed after what happened in the early '70s that we'd ever see these great offerings again. Geez, we can even add roller cams and fuel injection to make them idle smoothly and put out more power than ever before!
- Thread starter
- #29
Yes, agreed that the New Beetles are pretty lame.
Please explain more on the air cooled 911 thing.
Uh, last time I checked there were a few emissions related laws preventing us from putting a 426 Hemi in a Dakota. Or is this part of the kit...sounds expensive!
Please explain more on the air cooled 911 thing.
Uh, last time I checked there were a few emissions related laws preventing us from putting a 426 Hemi in a Dakota. Or is this part of the kit...sounds expensive!
Re: Porsche 911 air cooled evolving
Through some excellent engineering, Porsche managed to keep the air cooled engines going all through the emissions sensitive '70s, '80s, and well into the '90s. Finally, I believe with the 996 model, they went to liquid cooling. But even then they went to great lengths to keep the design legacy alive, still using a flat 6 boxer layout and even ensuring the exhuaust note was true to the air cooled engine. Despite not having that big fan, the liquid cooled 911 sounds the same as the air cooled and they remained true to the original.
Thus, my point was Porsche proved it could be done and stuck to the concept, unlike the New Beetle. And prices stayed pretty much the same throughout it all. VW has no excuse; they simply repackaged a Golf in an inferior manner (heavier, less cargo capacity, less stable at high speeds, etc.) and put together one heck of an ad campaign to sell it.
Through some excellent engineering, Porsche managed to keep the air cooled engines going all through the emissions sensitive '70s, '80s, and well into the '90s. Finally, I believe with the 996 model, they went to liquid cooling. But even then they went to great lengths to keep the design legacy alive, still using a flat 6 boxer layout and even ensuring the exhuaust note was true to the air cooled engine. Despite not having that big fan, the liquid cooled 911 sounds the same as the air cooled and they remained true to the original.
Thus, my point was Porsche proved it could be done and stuck to the concept, unlike the New Beetle. And prices stayed pretty much the same throughout it all. VW has no excuse; they simply repackaged a Golf in an inferior manner (heavier, less cargo capacity, less stable at high speeds, etc.) and put together one heck of an ad campaign to sell it.
HiG4s
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- Mar 7, 2001
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One of the hottest cars in SCCA Solo II (auto cross) is the dodge Neon, so basing the PT Cruiser on it is not a whimpy decision. Personally I think the new T-bird is Bu** Ugly and the PT Crusier looks like a mini version of the old Chevy panel vans which I always liked.
And emissions makes it hard to put V8s in cars? GM seems to be meeting standards fine in the 'Vette, Z28, and Trans AM. All based on the same CFI small block as my Silverado and they produce a minimum of 305hp (up to 380 on the new 'Vette) and get 27mpg on the highway, over 20 in town.
And Doug, the Truck V10 and the Viper V10 are not the same engine. The first test Viper after the orginal show only prototype in 1989 had a V8, the second a cast iron V10 from the Dodge Ram, and finally they ended up with a aluminimum V10 based on Italian formula 1 engines as the aluminimum Viper V10 was engineered in Italy.
And emissions makes it hard to put V8s in cars? GM seems to be meeting standards fine in the 'Vette, Z28, and Trans AM. All based on the same CFI small block as my Silverado and they produce a minimum of 305hp (up to 380 on the new 'Vette) and get 27mpg on the highway, over 20 in town.
And Doug, the Truck V10 and the Viper V10 are not the same engine. The first test Viper after the orginal show only prototype in 1989 had a V8, the second a cast iron V10 from the Dodge Ram, and finally they ended up with a aluminimum V10 based on Italian formula 1 engines as the aluminimum Viper V10 was engineered in Italy.
- Thread starter
- #33
I wasn't suggesting that an emissions friendly v-8 wasn't practical, heck, I own one!
But the Hemi is a very different animal from the v-8s you describe. Much higher cfm! I'm sure it could be done, but I was just wondering if the cats/smog pump/eec was part of the package or what?
There is a big difference between a vehicle coming stock with all the needed equipment, and stuffing a crate motor into a vehicle not designed for it.
But the Hemi is a very different animal from the v-8s you describe. Much higher cfm! I'm sure it could be done, but I was just wondering if the cats/smog pump/eec was part of the package or what?
There is a big difference between a vehicle coming stock with all the needed equipment, and stuffing a crate motor into a vehicle not designed for it.
xrsforever
Member
- Nov 2, 2000
- 249
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I wouldn't buy one,but I'll tell you who would.A 50 + year old guy or gal who does not really care about the fastest speed,but wants unique styling. The guy who helped design the new VW bug and Audi TT designed the PT. It has been a best seller.
- Aug 2, 2000
- 13,510
- 19
Re: Cool looking cheap transportion!
Kids should have to buy their own rigs (but that's another flame altogether!):confused:
Why can't kids have a first rig like me? I had to go out and get it myself, tow it home, and get it running (a '58 Chevy pickup for $100). Your first rig is supposed to be a doghumper. Makes you appreciate your next rig more!
Kids should have to buy their own rigs (but that's another flame altogether!):confused:
- Nov 22, 2000
- 4,392
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Bob Lutz
Can he "save" GM? I hope so. He did a spectacular job with Chrysler. I have my hands (and sometimes my feet) deep in these car's build quality, and Chrysler has come a long way since the K car.
Iacocca spent that K car money wisely, too. Chrysler purchased Lamborghini and used that company's F1 V-10 technology to design and build the Viper engine. That purchase has paid big dividends. Now that VW owns Lambo, expect some unusual offerings from them in the future. A W-16? How the hell is that gonna work? They're planning a big move into the high-end market, with the Bugatti and Bentley names. Did anyone notice VW/Audi's total domination at LeMans? Keep an eye on 'em.
If they build a new Karmann Ghia, I'll be ALL OVER it. I'll put a blower on the thing if it's a slug....
Can he "save" GM? I hope so. He did a spectacular job with Chrysler. I have my hands (and sometimes my feet) deep in these car's build quality, and Chrysler has come a long way since the K car.
Iacocca spent that K car money wisely, too. Chrysler purchased Lamborghini and used that company's F1 V-10 technology to design and build the Viper engine. That purchase has paid big dividends. Now that VW owns Lambo, expect some unusual offerings from them in the future. A W-16? How the hell is that gonna work? They're planning a big move into the high-end market, with the Bugatti and Bentley names. Did anyone notice VW/Audi's total domination at LeMans? Keep an eye on 'em.
If they build a new Karmann Ghia, I'll be ALL OVER it. I'll put a blower on the thing if it's a slug....
Re: Viper V10
I did know the early Viper prototype had the cast iron V10. And I'd have sworn from the car mags I read and Chrysler's own engine display at a car show that the iron truck and aluminum Viper V10 were based on the same design. I recall time being a factor and that being the decision. I could be wrong on this and you do sound like you've got the facts if that Viper engine was indeed done in Italy. It could also be that they decided on a V10 based on F1 but found it cheaper to base it on the existing truck engine. I'll have to go back and dig into this a little more since you've got me wondering now...
I did know the early Viper prototype had the cast iron V10. And I'd have sworn from the car mags I read and Chrysler's own engine display at a car show that the iron truck and aluminum Viper V10 were based on the same design. I recall time being a factor and that being the decision. I could be wrong on this and you do sound like you've got the facts if that Viper engine was indeed done in Italy. It could also be that they decided on a V10 based on F1 but found it cheaper to base it on the existing truck engine. I'll have to go back and dig into this a little more since you've got me wondering now...
- Nov 22, 2000
- 4,392
- 0
Re: Re: Karmann Ghia
Got a pic?
I'll drive a new Ghia. I don't care if it's a front driver or not. I have considered building a rotary-powered Bus. Do you have a lead on a 21 window Deluxe?
I think the Viper motor WAS derived from the truck motor design, which was developed from the Lambo V-12. Lambo never built a V-10.
Cool, Doug! I've had a plethora of air-cooled cars. A couple of 'em even made the mags. My daily driver was in VW Trends, and my best friend's car (that I built) was featured in Hot VW's. I stuck with the resto-custom theme. Never did anything really wild, but I beat a whole bunch of trailer queens with my drivers.
Got a pic?
I'll drive a new Ghia. I don't care if it's a front driver or not. I have considered building a rotary-powered Bus. Do you have a lead on a 21 window Deluxe?
I think the Viper motor WAS derived from the truck motor design, which was developed from the Lambo V-12. Lambo never built a V-10.
1- The Thunderbird was downsized in 1980 from 4,000 lbs to about3,200 lbs.
(3,000lbs is not a heavy car, sorry)
2- Ford 5.0 v8 Bhp rating were: 1982=157, 1983 & '84=175, 1985=210, 1986=200, 1987 & up=225. (my modified '84 was approx. 250 +)
3- The Ford "Fox" platform was a light roomy good handling design, used by Ford on many nameplates. (Mustang,Capri,Cougar,Thunderbird,LTD,Lincoln LSC and others)
4- An Accord??????? Please. They are fine competent driving machines for sure, but up against a GT??? (Mustang OR T-bird) I dont think so.:think
(3,000lbs is not a heavy car, sorry)
2- Ford 5.0 v8 Bhp rating were: 1982=157, 1983 & '84=175, 1985=210, 1986=200, 1987 & up=225. (my modified '84 was approx. 250 +)
3- The Ford "Fox" platform was a light roomy good handling design, used by Ford on many nameplates. (Mustang,Capri,Cougar,Thunderbird,LTD,Lincoln LSC and others)
4- An Accord??????? Please. They are fine competent driving machines for sure, but up against a GT??? (Mustang OR T-bird) I dont think so.:think
There were a few exceptions, and yes, I have driven a GNX. What I am saying is that there was a time when cars like the T-Bird were special, they were unlike anything else in the brand's lineup, and they were the state-of-the-art for there respective market. In the '70s and '80s, all this changed, and American cars all turned into fat, bloated, unreliable and unexciting clones. It took the Japanese gaining a huge portion of the total market to snap the American car makers out of their rut and start to build exciting quality products again.
And personally, I like the PT Cruiser. Economy cars have a neccessary place in the market, and Diamler Chrysler has hit on the right combination of looks, content, acceptable performance (remember, it's intended to be an economy car), in the intended target market to produce an economy car that people actually want to buy. No, it's not for everyone, but neither is a Honda Civic or Toyota Corrola. I for one applaud Them for taking styling chances, rather than staying with the stodgy, evolutionary tactics that GM and Ford prefer. Look at what happens when GM decides to take a chance, they produce something hideous like the Aztec, then wonder why no one buys their cars.
And personally, I like the PT Cruiser. Economy cars have a neccessary place in the market, and Diamler Chrysler has hit on the right combination of looks, content, acceptable performance (remember, it's intended to be an economy car), in the intended target market to produce an economy car that people actually want to buy. No, it's not for everyone, but neither is a Honda Civic or Toyota Corrola. I for one applaud Them for taking styling chances, rather than staying with the stodgy, evolutionary tactics that GM and Ford prefer. Look at what happens when GM decides to take a chance, they produce something hideous like the Aztec, then wonder why no one buys their cars.
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When you consider all the features the car comes with standard, I think the price is reasonable. Yes, the price is on the high end of the intended market, but so is the equipment. You can easily exceed the $20K price of the PT on a Honda Civic or Toyota Corrola.
So, you think the PT looks cheezy...
Have you looked at the new Chev Z71? They took the cheep plastic look of the aztec, and stuck it onto their trucks...
I was going to upgrade this year, but one look at the Z71, and I think not. I can't believe they did that to their trucks. I drive a lot of rental vehicles. So far as trucks are concerned, I prefer Chev because they fit me. I can't afford the milage of a dodge, and I don't like the feel of the fords, and now the chev's are ugly....where do you turn (and don't bother saying Yoda...).
Have you looked at the new Chev Z71? They took the cheep plastic look of the aztec, and stuck it onto their trucks...
I was going to upgrade this year, but one look at the Z71, and I think not. I can't believe they did that to their trucks. I drive a lot of rental vehicles. So far as trucks are concerned, I prefer Chev because they fit me. I can't afford the milage of a dodge, and I don't like the feel of the fords, and now the chev's are ugly....where do you turn (and don't bother saying Yoda...).
