Reminder- Riverside Ohv Hearing Tommorrow

[CRF_Tom]

This last round of posts can easily tell how sensitive this issue is. There are some good points and great debate items in them. What we need to do is get them organized. Once organized into a more positive way. We can go to the next hearing sounding more like what we are talking about. I believe we all gree on the fact that this ordinance is wrong or misleading. I concur with Markott. There is nothing like a good arguement. If we are willing to give and take from the issues and points made in each of our comments. Let's not let this issue cause tension or harsh feeling towards one another. We are all on the same page. Just different paragraphs.

 

[TemeculaTim]

Yee Haww--Great to finally see some good debate going on. I hate to throw gas on the fire, but the plain fact is, like it or not, we all can share the blame for allowing this to happen in some sort of fashion. The big question is what can we do about it. We can beat this topic into the dirt and not solve a thing. Anyone have any information on similar issues in other parts of the country and how they were resolved?

 

[JPIVEY]

Let's not let this issue cause tension or harsh feeling towards one another

Will never Happen

We are all on the same page. Just different paragraphs.

I could not agree more and when this novel is done we're ride'n

 

[TemeculaTim]

We are all on the same page. Just different paragraphs.

Well put Tom...........

 

[S_Markott]

Well, I re-read my posts last night. Making an attempt to be more objective. My intention was not to create animosity within a group, but I did want to grab people by the shoulders and shake real hard. It might seem to some that I’m anti-motocross. Admittedly, I have never been interested in MX. All of my riding from day one has been trail riding. Where you go for 2 to 3 hours in one ride an never see the same bush twice. Can’t do that on 20 acres or 200.

The popularity of MX has gone through the roof. And I can certainly can understand why. It’s lots of fun and you can easily pitch the bike into the truck and be in Perris or Elsinore real quick. No packing for a weekend trip, etc. And it can be done in a relatively small area. Hence the problem we’re having. 20 acres can host a pretty decent, balls out track. 5 acres can satisfy a younger crowd.

I have a friend who has a track on his property, 18 something acres. He manages to keep the neighborhood off his back because he uses it sparingly and doesn’t invite a crowd over (well, on very rare occasions). Doesn’t ride early or late. He knows if he doesn’t keep his neighbors somewhat pacified that he’s a goner. It’s not too difficult to do but you have to take responsibility for what’s going across your property line (noise and dust). And then there is the likely chance in the near future with all the new homes being built that someone will move in next to him who just flat out hates bikes. I have a retired neighbor who moved in about 3 years ago. They moved from a half acre in Elsinore where they had dealt with after school riding by the adjoining neighbors kids going up and down the fence line until dark. A half acre! They had a real tough job selling their house. Needless to say, they hate bikes. Myself and one other neighbor that lets their grand kids ride on their property a couple of times a year have worked it out with them and they trust us not to over due it. And we don’t.

People are moving out of the city in flocks, it’s incredible the rate of new homes going up in the rural areas. Most of these people are buying 2 to 5 acre parcels and they mistakenly think these lots are “big” and think “wow, I can do anything here”. Lots of people want to ride on these size parcels and it’s really creating a lot of anger towards the off-roaders.

The bigger (and more dangerous) picture here, is that every time one of these inconsiderate nitwits gets out of hand, we turn what once was, just a nice neighbor who never had any objections to bikes, into someone who will now whip out their checkbook in a heartbeat to support any number of “save the planet” organizations in the hopes of banishing all bikes.

I am not a fan of this “extreme” backyard riding. I will not support this kind of use in what is predominantly residential property. I have and will continue to receive a lot of flack for my position but there is no doubt in my mind that the County will overwhelmingly support the homeowners who just want to live on their property and recreation of this type will take a back seat. In my opinion these loud obnoxious tracks need to go.

Incase you haven’t heard the news, we now have the AMA’s Mr. Moreland and his “high profile clients” to thank for the County now drafting a separate noise ordinance right along with the new OHV ordinance! Careful what you ask for, you just might get it. I think it’s time for the AMA to bow out.

Will I run out and get an OHV permit after this? No. Will my grand kids have to stop riding? I doubt it. Unless I pi** one of my neighbors I don’t see a big change for me. Until that tract neighborhood moves in next door, which I never thought I’d see.

OK I’m done, my fingers are sore.

 

[ellandoh]

my parents bought a 6 acre farmhouse in Mi. the previous owners had a dozen cows there for 35 years . my parents kept the cows about 2 yrs before a new tenant didnt want the smell to reck their pool/housewarming party and found out they could challenge the rights because they werent grandfathered into cattle owning rights when ownership changed hands. parents didnt even bother to fight them on it , too much hassle / money. these people never come out of their house, the pool is gone and so is my stepdads hobby for their one day event :bang:

i moved in next door to my parents , and i take particular enjoyment pushing the limits of neighborly rights with them- and it will be good riddance when their house sells, i cant help it the guy works midnights and i love to fire up a chainsaw at 9am or the banshee or cr or weedwacker or the nephews minibike. cherry bombs , bottle rockets are fun too . the 6' x 40' bud light racing banner on the garage that is only visible to their back yard is an added bonus :rotfl: funniest thing ever is having them scowl at me while doing plug chop tests on the cr 3feet on my side of the property line .

i say if theirs a capitol of the world for mx and you move there you should not even consider getting a breath of anything other than premix and if you dont like it .........kick rocks. try moving to sturgis and trying to stop bike week dirtbikers are gonna be a bunch of pansies though i can already tell nobody is going to organize anything big enough to do squat. we are losing little by little every day. it wont surprise me when there is a toll to ride the trails we already pay for multiple ways and we all say at least i can ride

not the best attitude as a matter of fact nothing positive at all but im sick of people and their causes that limit the freedom of others

rant over , sorry

 

[TemeculaTim]

i say if theirs a capitol of the world for mx and you move there you should not even consider getting a breath of anything other than premix and if you dont like it .........kick rocks. try moving to sturgis and trying to stop bike week dirtbikers are gonna be a bunch of pansies though i can already tell nobody is going to organize anything big enough to do squat. we are losing little by little every day. it wont surprise me when there is a toll to ride the trails we already pay for multiple ways and we all say at least i can ride

not the best attitude as a matter of fact nothing positive at all but im sick of people and their causes that limit the freedom of others

rant over , sorry

:coocoo:

 

[DancesWithDirt]

Recommondations for Riverside Residents

I got a call from my Brother Organization based in Kern County. Kern County is starting up the same thing that we have here. A couple of bad apples are spoiling the cart up there. (We set him up with our tool bag, and made some Sound Advice for those residents.) Luckily, He is very Pro-OHV and the man in charge of the new circus.

Hopefully he can avoid the pitfalls that had the Riverside County Planning Commissioners disband our AD-HOC Committee of 23 experts. (I was one of two moderators.) Because of lack of ability to handle opposition, and refusal to compromise. Two extream Greens, and two "fringy" Oranges had such a marked propencity for drama and phony exhibitionism that they could not get off their own personal agenda's and get back to the table to work. FOR THE SAKE OF THE END USERS! All 48,000 of us in this County. (Ya, they had their hearts in the right place, they just wern't beating for us.)

"Life is full of marvelous options." I do not have the marvelous option to go ride at a factory owned practice track, nor would I even qualify to be on the track. But, the option that I do know is that, "Some people have that marvelous option!"

Other little things that happened behind closed doors:
1. State OHMVR Directors came to each meeting to add credibility to the "science" that we were trying to get the CPC to adhere to. (Not, allowing them to reinvent a lousy wheel.)
2. Representatives from San Bernardino County, LA County, and San Diego County were there to rest their laurels on whatever product that Riverside County could produce without having anybody on their Commission that is an expert in motorized recreation. But heck, they where going to pretend to be experts!
3. Other agencies were being discussed without any representative from several agencies. And, not the County, but the Volunteers for this AD-HOC Committee were scheduling appointments for proper agency representation to be at future meetings.
4. Everybody was discussing the ROVE without ever understanding the nature of their Grants, nor speaking on behalf of their Grant Application before the State OHMVR Commission. (Oh, Ya, like they have enough money to operate in an effective means.)
5. A Director a the State level put out an ultimatum to RCPC. "What is wrong with Riverside County? Why are you waiting on the State to provide YOUR citizens with OHV opportunities? Cause if you are, it's going to take a LONG TIME! You need to provide those opportunities for THEM."
6. The AMA wasn't informed that there once was an AD-HOC Committee till it was almost too late. (Smoke and Mirrors! 'I've got a problem, and now everybody else can go pound sand!')

I don't think that we are dealing with a straight, accurate, or trustworthy group of individuals. (This is the criteria for representing yourself to polititions.) However, the criteria has been delivered to this Commission, "That they need to adhere to the T.E.A. Party. T = Transperance, E = Effeicency, and A = Accountability! Or, you're overboard!" They can't even meet the first criteria, Transperancy.

SO, WHO WANTS TO KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON RIGHT NOW?
We have been advised to form a Charter. Committees are meant to make things go away. A Charter (with a set Collaborative Policy) have specific objectives, goals, and deadlines. Truly, a highly supervised "working group" with professional mediators, not amature moderators volunteering their time and money with high expectations for good results.
EDUCATION VS. ENFORECEMENT: (really it should be education hand in hand with enforecement.) Though the Charter we should be able to convince the CPC (as advised to them from Sacramento) that they need to "participate". It has been recommended that the County set aside allocations for a department of the Riverside County Sheriff's Dept. for an OHV expert with a high level of public relations skills to be hired as an OHV Prevention Tech. And, that brocures such as Right Rider, and other educational materials approved by other agencies hosting OHV Areas be mailed to every residence in Riverside County. (Just to make things clear, "We do police our own!" Trust me, your bail is based on your attitude!) We are not proposing that the Prevention Tech have any ability to write tickets. However, they will have the number for Dispatch and can call out the proper department.

ALSO, We have been advised to work with representives from the following polititions:
1. Senator Hollingsworth
2. Congressman Calvert
3. Assemblyman Haynes
4. County Supervisor Buster
5. County Supervisor Stone

More Recommondations: Start a positive PRO-EDUCATION Petition in support of the County working with it's residents, and not against them.

The entire Western United States is watching us! Everyone in Washington D. C. has been informed of this situation last week at the Summit.

We are going to need some extremely Pro-active people for this Charter with a clean record and commitment for working together as a team. If you are interested you may email me for more information.

If we are going to have to deal with the everyother day riding, It's been suggested that someone propose that every surf museum on Pacific Coast Highway be closed every other day as well! (Funny!)

Now who wants me to post the speach we prepared for the RCPC that was rudely cut short on 7/6/05.

C. J. "Sparkplug" Stewart
E. D., The Caring Trail Users, CTU, a division of the California Trail Users Coalition
Caring for YOUR receational interests for Riverside, Orange and North San Diego County (501 c 3)
Tread Lightly Master Trainer

 

[JPIVEY]

Now who wants me to post the speach we prepared for the RCPC that was rudely cut short on 7/6/05.

Post it

 

[DancesWithDirt]

7/6/05 Speech

Greetings, I have to compliment you folks on the candid perpectives, and overall good nature of behavior on this thread. It's no wonder that a Proponent for Ord. # 348 suggested that I checked out your concerns.

There is still work that needs to be done. In saying so, please do not DNF on this issue.

BELOW IS THE FULL SPEECH WE PREPARED FOR THE 7/6/05 RIVERSIDE COUNTY PLANNING COMMISSION. (Portions of it were not delivered due to time constraints.)



From the Desk of Ms. C. J. Stewart,
E. D., Caring Trail Users, CTU, A division of the California Trail Users, CTUC.
www.trailusers.org

DRAFT

PARTICIPATION IS A PERCEPTION: (1. To understand. 2. To become aware of (through) the senses.) Some may offer that, PARTICIPATION IS A PERSPECTIVE. (a sense of proportion) a measure of balance and symmetry. Either which may be true.
I apologize in advance if some think I am being blunt on the core issues
Allow us to participate!

BENJAMIN JOWETT:
We cannot seek or attain health, wealth, learning, justice or kindness in general. Action is always specific, concrete, individualized, unique.

Q: From the perspective of the Commissioners, did the demonstrations and actions enacted (on either of the two) SAE J 1287 demonstrations appear to be overly complicated, or above the ability, or trainability of the current paid, County staff?
Q: If not, what comments do you want to suggest>?


EPICTETUS:
It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows.
Point: Feathers vs. Gold?
It is a common human process to address issues without being knowledgeable or understanding the measures. When an agency needs a biologist, a botanist, a soil scientist, it hires the appropriate person for that position. However, when it comes to a highly specialized form of recreation that consists of multiple, dynamic social and cultural factors. The atmosphere flourishes best when ran by a “Public Relations” expert that can interpret rules and regulations in a friendly, informative, and non-penalizing manner.
Q: Is there anybody on this commission that is an OHV’er?
Q: Is there ½ or even 2/3rds of you that have an inventory to the entire realm of OHV?
Q: How many of you are an expert on weights and measures?
MOHANDAS K. GANDHI:
Non-cooperation is a measure of discipline and sacrifice, and it demands respect for the opposite views.
Reference: “Sound Advice, Organization of this Document” by Ed Moreland. (Paragraph #3)
Through the course of discussion during the National Summit on Motorcycle Sound, as well as meeting of the Motorcycle Sound Working Group, a central theme of recognition (and in some cases denial) of stakeholder’s culpability became apparent. Thus the final document is structured around various stakeholders to emphasize the fact that they all have some contributing role in addressing the issue of excessive motorcycle sound.
Q: DOES THIS BEFORE MENTIONED QUOTE SEEM FAMILIAR TO OUR PRESENT SCENARIO? I LIKEN THIS REINVENTING THE WHEEL (FOR A CART) VS. HAVING ALCOA’S AREADY SITTING IN THE GARAGE.)
MOSHE DAYAN:
If you want to make peace, you don’t talk to your friends. You talk to your enemies.







LADY MARY WORTLEY MONTAGU:
While conscience is our friend, all is at peace; however once it is offended, farewell to a tranquil mind.
Q: MANY IN THE ”INFORMED” OHV COMMUNITY ARE SINCERLEYLY SYMPATHITHIC TOWARDS THE CONCERNS OF THE PROPONENTS OF ORD. # 348. THE EVIDENCE SUBMITTED/PUBLICALLY VIEWED (FROM THE ACTIONS OF A SMALL MINORITY) OFFENDED MANY OF US AS WELL! THE MANDATES IN THIS PROPOSED ORDINANCE ARE THE STRICKTEST IN THE UNITED STATES. (BY WAY OF MANDATES THAT HAVE NEVER EXHISTED IN REFFERENCENCES TO “GOOD POLICY”.)

LET’S FIGURE OUT A WAY TO WORK WITH THE CURRENT ORDINACE, (WHICH ARE PERCIEVED BY THE COMMUNITY TO BE UNINFORCEABLE.)
DOUGLAS ADAMS:
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
Q: What is wrong with the County providing OHV opportunities?

Q: Why is the County waiting on the State to initiate an OHV area for THE RESIDENTS and future residents of Riverside County?

Q: Remember Eric Elrod, the business initiator of the Riverside MX Park Project? I own his business plan for the park! His observation to me was this, “Every time I went before the county, they would look at their paperwork and say, “Well, what did we say last time? Hmmmm? We said, NO!” In Mr. Elrod’s comments to me, it appeared that the County rested its laurels on precedence. We have seen evidence of this from previous hearings.

FYI: The State OHMVR Commission is held to the scrutiny of the T. E. A. Party. “T’ FOR TRANSPERANCEY, “E” FOR EFFICIENCY, “A” FOR ACCOUNTABILITY.

MORAL:
DOROTHY THOMPSON:
Peace has to be created, in order to be maintained. It is the product of Faith, Strength, Energy, Will, Sympathy, Justice, Imagination, and the triumph of principle. It will never be achieved by passivity and quietism.
Q: DO ANY OF THESE VOLUNTEERS APPEAR TO BE PASSIVE?

ERIC HOFFER:
In times of change, learners inherit the Earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists.
Q: AT THE 1/24/05 MEETING, MR. JOHNSON ADDRESSED THE AD-HOC COMMITTEE WITH A TRANQUIL ALTIMATUM, “YOU GUYS ARE GOING TO HAVE TO COMPROMISE! IF YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DO SO, I WILL DISBAND THIS COMMITTEE AND WE WILL GO BACK TO THE PUBLIC PROCESS! AND, TRUST ME, THIS WILL NOT BE PRETTY!” PAUSE, WHILE ASKING EACH INDIVIDUAL PARTICIPATING, “ARE YOU WILLING TO COMPROMISE? WILL THIS WORK FOR YOU?” MR. JOHNSON’S NEXT STATEMENT LEAD TO AN INDICATION THAT AN UNSET “COLLABORATIVE POLICY AND PROCEDURE” FOR THE PRODUCTIVITY OF THE (MORE THAN 2/3 PARTICIPANTS) AD-HOC COMMITTEE AND COUNTY, FROM A MANAGEMENT STANDPOINT WAS AN INEVIDABLE ABORTION. “WHO IS GOING TO TAKE PUBLIC RESPONSIBILITY FOR A DISBANDMANSHIP?” BOB JOHNSON.

GEORGE SANTAYANA:
Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
WE NEED SUSTAINABLE RESOLUTIONS INTENDED FOR THE LONGTERM! INTERESTED IN WORKING WITH THE COUNTY WITH A GOOD OUTCOME FOR THE CITIZENS. WE NEEED TO BE TASK OREINETED, AND WITH CLEAR GOALS AND DEADLINES. (NOT A LONGTERM PROCESS)

Lisa Beutler, Associate Director, center For Collaborative Policy has extended her services from the Cal. State Sacramento, McGeorge School of Law, University of the Pacific, has offered several hours of her time to direct a charter on behalf of the University.


WILL DURANT:
Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.
Q: WHAT ORGANIZATIONS OR AGENCIES HAVE NOT BEEN DISCOVERED TO LEND LEADERSHIP, AND COMMUNITY VALUES?
JOHN POWELL:
The only real mistake is the one from which we learn nothing.
RESPONSE: We need to discover as a community reasonable means to enforce the current ordinances while utilizing the MARVELOUS OPTION TO INCREASE THE PUBLICS KNOWLEDGE “that they may be violating their own rights to recreate in a motorized means.”

CARL ROGERS:
If we value independence, if we are disturbed by the growing conformity of knowledge, of values, of attitudes, which our present system induces, then we may wish to set up conditions of learning which make for uniqueness, for self-direction, and for self-initiated learning.
It has been suggested for me to convey, that mandates will not BE SUPPORTED. So, upon sincere INPUT we will no longer BE pursuing a “Permit process” as discussed during the AD-HOC meetings.

HENRY STEELE COMMAGER:
Change does not necessarily assure progress, but progress implacably requires change. Education is essential to change, for education creates both new wants and the ability to satisfy them.




JOHN DEWEY:
I believe that education is the fundamental method of social progress and reform. All reforms which rest simply upon the law, or the threatening of certain penalties, or upon changes in mechanical or outward arrangements, are transitory and futile.... But through education society can formulate its own purposes, can organize its own means and resources, and thus shape itself with definiteness and economy in the direction in which it wishes to move.... Education thus conceived marks the most perfect and intimate union of science and art conceivable in human experience.
My Pedagogic Creed, 1897

Therefore I have been advised to suggest that the County (and other county agencies) are invited to participate to develop a Charter.

Q: How would other agencies rate the performance of the RCPC in regards to utilizing existing resources, man hours previously invested for the growth of our ever-evolving community?

Agencies are being introduced at a concurring rate, vastly due to the current interests



ARIEL AND WILL DURANT:
Education is the transmission of civilization.



GEORGE PEABODY:
Education: a debt due from present to future generations.



ALVIN TOFFLER:
The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn.
Q: Can the Citizens learn, unlearn, and relearn? Q: Can the County?
(NOTE: If they hesitate, agree that there may be some reservation & reasonability for a collaborative policy)





PEYTON CONWAY MARCH:
There is a wonderful mythical law of nature that the three things we crave most in life—happiness, freedom, and peace of mind—are always attained by giving them to someone else.
ARISTOTLE:
All who have meditated on the art of governing mankind have been convinced that the fate of empires depends on the education of youth.


Q: IS MANAGED RECREATION BETTER THAN NON-MANAGED RECREATION?

CONCLUTION:
REFERENCE PAGE 71 PARAGRAPH ON “SOUND ADVICE”

THOMAS JEFFERSON:
Whenever the people are well-informed, they can be trusted with thier own government." END~

 

[TemeculaTim]

There is still work that needs to be done. In saying so, please do not DNF on this issue.

I believe that there are a lot of people who have been following this topic and want to get involved. What is your organization(California Trail Users) doing to prepare for the next round? Are there any meetings planned by the pro-OHV side to discuss strategy? What about the other organized groups that were in attendance such as ORBA, and the AMA? Any dialog going on between these groups? Keep in mind that some of us are willing to invest the time and effort to help out.

 

[DancesWithDirt]

That's the spirit!

Background: We had a fantastic working group until the county got fed up with the drama.

Since I live in this county and also represent the volunteers for the US Forest Service, (And by including those volunteers for the Elsinore GP) and a few other local projects. Ed Waldheim, the President of CTUC, CORVA Man, State Commissioner, etc, specifically put me on this project to report on everything.

CTUC is a site specific group of volunteers from the Sequoia, Los Padres, Angeles, San Bernardino, Cleveland NF, Ca. State Parks, and BLM. We have to follow our Mission Statement www.trailusers.org Being a 501 c 3 we make every possible attempt to collaborate with the agencies. When things go South we put on our orange hats and call CORVA a 501 c 4.

Now, CORVA wants us to step it up! They are pissed! But, it's very important that we maintain calm working atmosphere, therefore, Caring Trail Users, CTU will continue to wear our green hats and cooperatively gather as much collaborative policy as we can from other agencies.

I should be getting a call from Senator Hollingsworth office later today to schedule a meeting in order to establish a Charter for all of us volunteers. You are welcome to come with me as long as you are willing to represent the End Users. We are going to need a healthy, and sound team.

From what we can tell, from being on the outside of ORBA, They are a business that represents their paying members. And, from what it appears the only dialog from the higher-ups from the AMA has been directed exclusively with ORBA, and a few of the Professional Racers. I really don't know what happens behind their closed doors. We weren't welcome. But, they are getting what they want.

We want more! And, when I say "WE" I don't mean "ME". I'm taking my marching orders from the Sergeants, and the Generals and I'm not deviating a step.

We can meet anytime you want to call a meeting. Email me, and I will communicate with you.

Q: Does anyone know David Hoak from Oceanside, or Jim Ferrand from Chino? They are listed as Elite Legislative Supporters for the AMA. I've been advised to establish dialog with them, and pull in "Locals Only". As we have seen what the Washington office of the AMA can do.

Happy Trails,
C. J. "Sparkplug" Stewart
CTU, CTUC, Treadlightly Master Trainer

 

[Dirty Di]

Hi, I'm new here but very interested in this noise thing the county has going. Seems we just can't have any fun and what about my kids? I'd like to be able to ride local but we may be stuck with the des4evr..... When is the next meeting or is there a next meeting?

Di

 

[JPIVEY]

Email me, and I will communicate with you.

DancesWithDirt needs to post their email address. or maybe they could email me @ jpiracephotos@msn.com

 

[JPIVEY]

Conspiracy Theory: Sierra Club is behind this;

This statement is in the San Bernardino Ord, The Riverside Ord and in the state bill AB1086

When using private land, all vehicle operators must have in their possession written permission from the landowner.

This I've heard numerous times

Local regulations that exceed state and federal standards for control of vehicle use off-road should be encouraged.

Both of the comment came off of the Sierra Clubs "Guidelines for Implementation" of the Sierra Club Conservation Policies towards Off-Road Use of Motorized Vehicles.

 

[DancesWithDirt]

PLEASE, DO NOT ENGAGE A "CONSPIRACY THEORY"!

Acknowledging unscientific personal agendas that are not bound to the balance of any topic nature is not a our intended approach. "Ignore the noise." Stick to what the End Users have provided as first hand concern from this thread.

THIS IS SYMPTOM THAT WE SUFFER OUTSIDE OF THE PRIVATE SUPERCROSS TRACKS.

Written permission from the landowner has been universally accepted. And is well beaten rhetoric. The scenario starts like this: A. Uneducated locals ride on undeveloped lots near their neighborhood. ("Fugitive Riding") B. Keen uneducated motorists observe the activity and deem that it's acceptable. (Freshies) C. Folks start trailering in from other regions to set up shop (like a bill board). Thus infectiously miss-educating the other freshies, "We've got an OHV Area!" D. The SWAT Team utilizes this scenario as a marvelous exercise to issue 87 citations. E. The media ROOSTS us law-abiding, educated, and sport preserving families. F: The cycle is over for that area, and the Cowboys explore other areas. "Crusty Education"? "Informacion para Huevos"? $$$$ Let's not kid ourselves! We haven't been "outreaching" enough. The more we let the Clowns, Squids, and Cowboys raise the bar, the more we allow for attack.

At last count, a group of us identified 55 different types of "off roading" activities. It's like a diamond! Multi-faceted! Now, are we going to let one, two, or three facets reflect on all the others? This is our diamond being cut and polished. Nobody elses.

 

[DancesWithDirt]

THE THREE "C's"

A very wise man shared this with me today:

"The 3 C's: Learn to Cooperate, arrive at a Consensus, and strive for Collaboration."

When dealing with politicians, another wise man advised me to: "Always be Straight, Accurate, and Trushtworthy. If you are not, you will loose all credibility." (S.A.T.)


Remember the T.E.A. Party: Transparency, Efficiency, and Accountability.

 

[Ol'89r]

i cant help it the guy works midnights and i love to fire up a chainsaw at 9am or the banshee or cr or weedwacker or the nephews minibike. cherry bombs , bottle rockets are fun too . funniest thing ever is having them scowl at me while doing plug chop tests on the cr 3feet on my side of the property line .

not the best attitude as a matter of fact nothing positive at all but im sick of people and their causes that limit the freedom of others

rant over , sorry

This is exactly the attitude that is costing us our freedoms.

To me, this whole thing is more about respect than riding our dirtbikes. Respect for other human beings regardless of what their particular interest are. We have too many young people with the same in-your-face attitude as Mr. ellendoh.

I also live in a neighborhood of large acreage propertys that share the love of dirtbikes and horses. I have horses too. We never had any problems getting along together because we showed each other respect. I would go out of my way to help my non-dirtbiking neighbors by doing work for them with my tractor or whatever it took to keep the peace and gain their respect.

For many years we got along very well and even helped the local sheriff track down some bad guys in the hills with our dirtbikes.(Not dirtbike related, car theft related.)

Now we have some new neighbors that have that in-your-face attitude and it is turning what used to be a good thing into not such a good thing. These kids don't care who they piss off and it is destroying it for all of us. I moved out here in the mid 80's to get away from the sprawl and congestion and to have a place to ride both my bike and my horse without bothering anyone. Now, the sprawl and congestion has caught up.

The people that bought land in the Aguana area did the same thing. The 8 time Champ that you spoke of Mr. Markot bought his land because of the sprawl and congestion around his home and track in Murrita. He actually tries very hard to control the noise and dust. He has installed a large water tank and keeps the track watered. He requires everyone that rides on his property to have a quiet silencer. If you show up without one, you don't ride. The track is surrounded by hills to further reduce the noise. So I think you are being a little harsh on him.

But, there are many others with tracks that do nothing to reduce the noise and dust and also have the same attitude as Mr. ellendoh. My wife and I have many friends from the horse world that live in Aguana and Temecula and when we go to visit them I am very embarrassed by the actions I witness in my dirtbike brethren. So, it's not all of them but as usual just the bad apples among our group that is causing the problem.

I would like to propose that we form our own group to educate these bad apples and show them the error of their ways. Maybe by peer pressure from some of the top riders in the area, we can impress upon them the trouble they are causing everyone. If that doesn't work they may find themselves snubbed at the local tracks and shops by the very people they look up to and respect. Maybe even and published 'Black List.' If anyone has any ideas, I'm all over it.

It's great to finally see such great discussion going on with this subject.

It is our sport so, it is up to us to do whatever it takes to insure the future of the sport. Weather you trail ride, race, dualsport or backyard ride, we are all in this together.

BTW, DancesWithDirt. O.R.B.A. works on a different level than most of us on this. The reason they need the funding they require is because they work directly with Washington DC in the form of lobbying. They have many good people that they pay to do this one of which is Mr. Roy Denner. That man should be elevated to sainthood. If you don't already know Roy, you should. I would be willing to work with you or whoever wants to be involved to alleviate this situation.

Once our freedoms are taken from us, we won't get them back.

Ol'89r

 

[ellandoh]

was wondering how long it would take for someone to take my post out of context and only knowing a portion of the story to point the finger :blah:

 

[DancesWithDirt]

We are forming the Charter right now.

Ol89r, I tried to link an email to you. I did not have access.

Yes, I know Roy. I've been to a lot of Hearings with him. (It's funny that you mentioned him for Sainthood. He has a hilarious stance on Catholic Priests.)

If you could get in touch with JPivey, he has my phone number(s). And, I'm still waiting to hear from him as well.

We would like to hold a workshop this Sat. Not all can attend, but they do agree to participate by reviewing our fledgling product and adding comment.

 

[TemeculaTim]

DWD,

I am interested, but have a scheduling conflict with this Saturday that I can not change unless I want to be single again. Please keep me posted if there is a change in time or date.

Thanks for taking the lead.

 

[DancesWithDirt]

Charter

We now have 11 committed participants for the Charter. All with excellent qualities. Many more will join.

It's true that the off-road community has taken two separate avenues on this issue. This will ultimately be best viewed as "Two separate teams" trying their absolute best.

1. Handling the 2 Ordinances with the assistance with the AMA.

2. The Charter, CTU Team focused on how the education and enforcement of the Ordinance Product is handled with Transparency, Efficiency, and Accountability. (TEA Party) to assist the Agencies by learning to Cooperate, arriving at a Consensus, and striving for Collaboration. (3 C's)

AGAIN, We must always remember to be Straight, Accurate and Trustworthy. (SAT)

Thank you everybody, this has been a great day!

C. J. "Sparkplug" Stewart

 

[S_Markott]

This board was really the only one I found to have more of an adult discussion rather than the dialog along the lines of the “brat mentality”. This dialog/discussion is encouraging however I fear we are becoming the minority not the majority. I am amazed at how often I spend time educating someone my own age why I believe “Joe Biker” is going beyond what it acceptable.

Obviously Ol’89r has had some contact with the person I believe to be a part of the problem. I don’t doubt that the property owners have their side of the argument and I respect that. However, I do believe my own eyes and ears. I’ve been driving by this property 5 days a week for many years and I’ve also ridden through it many times on the one or two trails that cut through it, but it’s been years. Yes, there is a water tank on the property and a water truck. Well good, then they ought to use them, I have personally seen 100 ft clouds of dust in the air on more than one occasion and all kinds of filming, manufacturers tents, and way too many bikes day after day. Far beyond what most people would consider neighborly. Obviously there is more to this track than just personal riding. I suspect the reason he left the sprawl in town is because of the same complaints he’s getting in Aguanga.

The track is surrounded by hills? Actually it isn’t. There are a few very small rises around the property. There are two valleys that spread out from that property to the east, and to the west. Sound bounces off of the hills and the rocks and continues on it’s merry way through those valleys probably for 2 miles with the kind of riding that being done here (not Mom and Pop). Do the math. This property is about 100 acres total. 640 acres equals one square mile. So even if you were sitting in the middle of 640 acres and riding in a circle, you would still only be ½ mile from your nearest neighbor. Hell, I can hear my neighbors wife calling her dogs a quarter of a mile away. Some of the 4 strokes I’ve heard while driving by this property could rattle a window a half a mile away. I will say that lately there has been little activity here, did someone get the message? I hope. In my opinion this kind of riding will never be compatible in rural areas unless it’s very sporadic and you have a good relationship with the neighbors. And I think sporadic isn’t what most of these guys have in mind.

I am with JPIVEY, I’m much more concerned with the riding areas that we are losing outside of private property riding. I don’t believe the bikers will win this one in the long run. Look at all the cities and county’s that are in the draft stages of new off road restrictions. This tells me what I already know, living next to a track sucks.

Charters, meetings and dialog are a good idea. I will continue with the dialog part, (getting too old for the rest). In closing I have to say that the responsible people have, and always will, pack up their bikes and take it to where it’s not bothering anyone. No decent, respectful, thinking person would try to shove a noise factory like an overused MX track down the throats of rural property owners. And the average dirt bike rider will continue to suffer more restrictions until this type of use “in residential neighborhoods” gets the bad press it deserves.

 

[DancesWithDirt]

This dialog/discussion is encouraging however I fear we are becoming the minority not the majority. I am amazed at how often I spend time educating someone my own age why I believe “Joe Biker” is going beyond what it acceptable.

S_Markott, you are not the only (true) hero of our sport engaging in such efforts. There is a site specific group of us supporting OHV Outreach by doing so.


Please, be enpowered by the tag of another DRN member: "Keep away form the small people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great." Mark Twain.

Don't feed the trolls, or the untrustworty media types.

We are following the wisdom, and advice before us. One of those measures is to keep personal opinion (If not constructive) out of the public arena. We need to be very careful with the media. As, I am a former member of such a destructive beast.

 

[Ol'89r]

was wondering how long it would take for someone to take my post out of context and only knowing a portion of the story to point the finger :blah:

ellandoh.

What was there to take out of context? I took it as it was written. If you are going to use sarcasm or post in a joking manner, please use the appropriate lil smiley to indicate as such. Othewise, your post will be taken as it is written. I have been involved in this land issue thing long before it was fashionable and I have little patience for those that take away from a serious discussion on this matter. We are all here for the same reason and we don't need to argue among ourselves. Remember, Divide and conquer. Also, you never know who is reading these threads and will use the things written here against us. :think:

DWD. I PM'ed JPIVEY with your request to contact you. You may want to post your email address here so we can contact you or at least put it in your profile. I believe I met you at one of the first meetings? I was the one that spoke of the mis-use of our green sticker funds and the use of volunteers to clean up the Wildimar OHV site. I think it was you that gave me your phone # but, I seem to have lost it.

S_Marcott.

Yes, someone did get the message and as you have noticed things have changed on that property for the better. They are trying very hard to conform with the dust and noise issue. His father, Jack may not be the best spokesman for us at the meetings, but he is there and does what he can. He is one of the good-ol-boys that has been in this area for many years and knows how much good his son has done for the sport and the national recognition that he has gotten us. It's all good.

I for one don't believe we are loosing this. I believe we are winning it. If we were loosing, the Commissioners would have already made a decision and the Amendment would be in the books. We have opened their eyes and they are working with us. That's a good thing.

Keep up the good work everyone. :cool:

Ol'89r