Round #14 SPOILER!

[Okiewan]

So it wasn't straight up when they left at the same gate drop? This James has never been beaten when he hasn't crashed stuff makes me laugh. The guy is an amazing rider but part of being a great champion is learning where the line is and how well you can walk that line. Lot's of guys can go faster than their limits right before they yard sale.

I think it's pretty obvious that we all know that.... finishing, consistency, title, etc., etc. It's still a pretty crazy stat. Another one, more single season wins on a Yamaha, including McGrath and the Chad.

 

[Thump]

11 Amateur national titles all before the age of 16
2002 AMA Rookie of the Year
2003 125 West Supercross Championship
2004 125 East Supercross Champion
2004 125 Outdoor national title
========================
2005 practice crash that resulted in a broken wrist and sat out a few rounds.
2005 Texas Stadium (in only his 3rd race), Stewart captured his very first career Supercross victory
2005 won 3 SX races in 1st year on the big bikes
2006 World SX Champion.
2006 Had 1 DNF and finished 2 point out of 1st for AMA champion
2007 AMA SX Champion
2008 Sits out SX with non-crash knee injury from MX
2008 Perfect outdoor season, 24 races, 24 wins
2009 has won 11 of 14 main events and is on his way to winning another title.

Those are not the stats from an under achiever IMO. He has competed in 4 AMA SX series, won 1 and will likely win his second this year.

Chad has competed in 7 AMA SX series and won 2.

 

[truespode]

Thump,

If you want to throw out stats then lets throw out RC's versus Stewarts since Stewart supposedly never beat RC straight up either. Or we can throw out MC's stats (remember he won the SX championship in his Rookie year).

Bottom line, gate drops and Stewart rides over his head often enough to throw championships away. That is being beaten straight up. Nobody took him out but himself. He just ran out of talent.

Stewart crashing and losing championships is no different than Windham doing it when he was with Team Suzuki. Windham had the most talent and speed at any given time but couldn't put it together enough to win.

Stewart is a great rider and one of the best ever but to give him some title as fastest ever or anything other than what is actual to his true records is inaccurate at best.

Even Stewart has said he has had to learn to ride within his limits so he can win more. Otherwise he'd be just another Pastrana and have to do MTV for a living instead of race SX.

I think we need to stop making excuses for Stewart not being the best ever.

He is great. That should be enough.

Whether he is better than Reed THIS year or not is to be determined and will most likely be decided by his ability to stay ON the bike and not because he is the fastest person for a few laps before falling on his arse again.

Ivan

 

[whenfoxforks-ruled]

How many of JBS's, riding outside his comfort zone crashes, are really just that? What about the chit happens factor? His bike set up is so bizarre, only to be 1 upped by RC's bizarre setup? JBS takes the lead BACK again in 2! Maybe some feld drama, Bubbles juggling act, or the chit will fall on Chadwick? Fact is, these last 3 races WILL be interesting!

 

[ODM2]

Thump,

If you want to throw out stats then lets throw out RC's versus Stewarts since Stewart supposedly never beat RC straight up either. Or we can throw out MC's stats (remember he won the SX championship in his Rookie year).

Bottom line, gate drops and Stewart rides over his head often enough to throw championships away. That is being beaten straight up. Nobody took him out but himself. He just ran out of talent.

Stewart crashing and losing championships is no different than Windham doing it when he was with Team Suzuki. Windham had the most talent and speed at any given time but couldn't put it together enough to win.

Stewart is a great rider and one of the best ever but to give him some title as fastest ever or anything other than what is actual to his true records is inaccurate at best.

Even Stewart has said he has had to learn to ride within his limits so he can win more. Otherwise he'd be just another Pastrana and have to do MTV for a living instead of race SX.

I think we need to stop making excuses for Stewart not being the best ever.

He is great. That should be enough.

Whether he is better than Reed THIS year or not is to be determined and will most likely be decided by his ability to stay ON the bike and not because he is the fastest person for a few laps before falling on his arse again.

Ivan

well said. :cool:

 

[ODM2]

How many of JBS's, riding outside his comfort zone crashes, are really just that? What about the chit happens factor? His bike set up is so bizarre, only to be 1 upped by RC's bizarre setup? JBS takes the lead BACK again in 2! Maybe some feld drama, Bubbles juggling act, or the chit will fall on Chadwick? Fact is, these last 3 races WILL be interesting!

I guess I have had the same question.

First race of the year, he shifted into neutral - is this riding over your head?

At St Louis he (according to him) did the same thing coming up the step up thingy or whatever the heck, and duffed it, crashing. Over your head to shift into neutral on a jump your were comfortably making the other laps?

Those are the two examples that come to my mind. He's brilliant to be sure.

But I think Ivan makes the case as well as anyone. Racing is racing. It accounts for all those factors- gene pool, training, machinery, endurance, mindset, your support crew, etc. etc.
If one of those things is lacking on any day, and anyone at all finishes ahead of you, then, that person won the spot of head of you. Short of cheating, that's fair and square.

 

[Chili]

Sounds like Chad may have a date with the principal http://motocross.transworld.net/2009/04/09/catching-up-with-john-gallagher/

 

[Okiewan]

Sounds like Chad may have a date with the principal http://motocross.transworld.net/2009/04/09/catching-up-with-john-gallagher/

Who knows who's weakness? I'm confused. :think:

 

[Thump]

Thump,

If you want to throw out stats then lets throw out RC's versus Stewarts since..... and so on...

Here is the point I am trying to make. James has been competing in this class now for 4 years (this is his 4th season) of the 3 prior years he competed in he has won 1 world championship (2nd in AMA series) 2006, 1 AMA Championship in 2007 and a "terrible" rookie season in 2005 winning 3 races.

So in 3 years:
1 -- AMA Championship
1 -- World Championship (finishing 2nd in AMA series)
1 -- Bad rookie season (winning 3 main events)

This year (his 4th season) at very worst he will finish 2nd in points. To the best of my knowledge, only McGrath has more championships during his first 3 seasons. I guess I just fail to understand why so many consider JBS to be a let down. He is winning more races and championships than any other rider, aside from McGrath, in the history of this sport? Are you disappointed because he pushes himself beyond his own limitations sometimes? I understand that his rookie season was a disaster, so was RC's. I know he should have won the AMA title in 2006 and 2007, but he didn't, he took a first and a second. Given that his second place was to the greatest of all time, I think I am okay with that. Should he have won? Probably, but RC dropped a race that year too with a busted linkage, that is the only reason CR was close in points. What more do you want from the rider, do think he is a failure because of his rookie season? Because the other 2 seasons have been pretty damn good and this year is looking better and better each weekend.

 

[ODM2]

What more do you want from the rider, do think he is a failure because of his rookie season? Because the other 2 seasons have been pretty damn good and this year is looking better and better each weekend.

I'm not sure that is anywhere near what Ivan or anyone has said. The argument was made that Chad (or others) wasn't winning "straight up".

I think everyone concedes that JS is brilliant, and talented, etc. He wins. He loses.
And... the argument is... when he loses it is a loss. Period. Other guy won. Not "James beat himself" which is making excuses for someone who is obviously accomplished enough that no one should be making excuses for him. It's a silly argument, and makes him look pathetic, which he clearly is not. Let his record stand on its own.

Wins and losses.

 

[IndyMX]

I'm not sure that is anywhere near what Ivan or anyone has said. The argument was made that Chad (or others) wasn't winning "straight up".

I think everyone concedes that JS is brilliant, and talented, etc. He wins. He loses.
And... the argument is... when he loses it is a loss. Period. Other guy won. Not "James beat himself" which is making excuses for someone who is obviously accomplished enough that no one should be making excuses for him. It's a silly argument, and makes him look pathetic, which he clearly is not. Let his record stand on its own.

Wins and losses.

It's kind of like when they say something like "I gave 110% today"...

Just some nonsense they have to throw out there..

How do you give more than is possible?

 

[Ando400]

Here is the point I am trying to make. James has been competing in this class now for 4 years (this is his 4th season) of the 3 prior years he competed in he has won 1 world championship (2nd in AMA series) 2006, 1 AMA Championship in 2007 and a "terrible" rookie season in 2005 winning 3 races.

So in 3 years:
1 -- AMA Championship
1 -- World Championship (finishing 2nd in AMA series)
1 -- Bad rookie season (winning 3 main events)

This year (his 4th season) at very worst he will finish 2nd in points. To the best of my knowledge, only McGrath has more championships during his first 3 seasons. I guess I just fail to understand why so many consider JBS to be a let down. He is winning more races and championships than any other rider, aside from McGrath, in the history of this sport? Are you disappointed because he pushes himself beyond his own limitations sometimes? I understand that his rookie season was a disaster, so was RC's. I know he should have won the AMA title in 2006 and 2007, but he didn't, he took a first and a second. Given that his second place was to the greatest of all time, I think I am okay with that. Should he have won? Probably, but RC dropped a race that year too with a busted linkage, that is the only reason CR was close in points. What more do you want from the rider, do think he is a failure because of his rookie season? Because the other 2 seasons have been pretty damn good and this year is looking better and better each weekend.

Actually this is his fifth season of SX, don't know why you omitted 2008? Of the previous four he has finished the full season only twice, and one title. If you consider his MX record it's even worse - he's only completed a full season ONCE out of four years!!

So if Stewart doesn't win this SX title, and it doesn't look like he is riding the full MX season, his overall record in the 250/450 class will be 5 years, 9 championships contended and 2 titles. Chad's record will be 6 years, 9 championships contended and 3 titles (Chad started one year earlier but quit MX earlier). Of course if Stewart wins the current SX season it will be 3 and 2 titles respectively.

My point - Stewart's overall record is only about as good as Reed's. World class? Certainly. Among the greatest of all time? A long way to go yet.

In my opinion he hasn't delivered the results befitting his obvious potential and speed which is clearly better than anybody. Underachiever? Maybe.

 

[Thump]

I'm not sure that is anywhere near what Ivan or anyone has said. The argument was made that Chad (or others) wasn't winning "straight up".

In fact if he doesn't win this season that will be seven major SX/MX championships (not including 125/250F seasons of which I think there is at least one) he's failed to win because he couldn't stay on the bike.

I wonder how many it takes before "choker" or "underachiever" is a more appropriate title?

The post above states otherwise.

I was not arguing Ivans point other than what I quoted of his post. He wanted numbers vs RC and I gave him numbers vs RC. This is my point. His actual championship/series titles indoors are better than any other rider except McGrath at this point in his career and outdoor only RC had more championships by their 4th season and James has won 1 of 4 titles outdoors loosing to RC twice and Langston once.

You guys are right, a win is a win and a loss is a loss. I will say however that it must be a little intimidating lining up with him knowing that no rider has ever beaten him indoors unless he crashes.

No matter what has transpired this season, we have some great racing and a real series again. Had james not dropped 2 races it would be pretty boring.

 

[Thump]

Actually this is his fifth season of SX, don't know why you omitted 2008?

Didn't he withdraw from the series in 2008 due to knee surgery from an outdoor injury before the series started? I could be wrong about that.

 

[Okiewan]

Didn't he withdraw from the series in 2008 due to knee surgery from an outdoor injury before the series started? I could be wrong about that.

It must be so, because Chad is running the #1 plate. Bottom line, if James are RC were/are in it, Chad is 2 or 3.

Maybe this year the eternal #2 wins with consistency?

 

[truespode]

H I guess I just fail to understand why so many consider JBS to be a let down.

I don't consider him a let down at all. I just don't see him as the greatest.

He is great. No doubt.

My argument is Chad beating him straight up and I think this year he has done it.

Ivan

 

[truespode]

So in 3 years:
1 -- AMA Championship
1 -- World Championship (finishing 2nd in AMA series)
1 -- Bad rookie season (winning 3 main events)

Bob Hannah - 6 Championships in 3 years (and a 125 Championship in 1976). 3 Indoors, just like Stewart.
# 1977 250cc Supercross Champion
# 1978 250cc Supercross Champion
# 1978 250cc National Champion
# 1978 Trans-AMA Champion
# 1979 250cc Supercross Champion
# 1979 250cc National Champion

We don't consider Bob Hannah the best ever anymore than we should consider James Stewart at this point in his career.

Similarly, crashes plagued Hannah too.

But again... I am not taking anything away from Stewart. I am just not giving him any more than he deserves either.

Ivan

 

[James]

It must be so, because Chad is running the #1 plate. Bottom line, if James are RC were/are in it, Chad is 2 or 3.

Maybe this year the eternal #2 wins with consistency?

Maybe #2 would have won last year with consistency even if the fastest rider in the world didn't pre-crash himself out of the championhip. Bottom line...you can't give a series to a guy that didn't race it. Who ever thought Grant Langston would win a title that Stewart competed for...blasphemy.

As far as RC vs Stewart numbers:

RC-4, JBS-0

Unless you want to count that farce of an add on championship:

RC-5, JBS-1 Still speaks for itself.

 

[Micahdawg]

To go back to the choking incident.....as a Reed fan, i was pretty disappointed.

Obviously it's frustrating to lead 17 or 18 laps and get walked on the last two. And to choke someone and say you are going to kill them is completely out of line.........but...........

As I'm learning a little more about it....I'm thinking it may be a little blown out of proportion. The choking was apparently "sternly grabbing the back of the helmet." Its certainly not sportsmanlike conduct, but it is quite different. For Larry to say that riders shouldn't be "touching each other," I dunno....it's just not cut and dried like that. For instance, in practice when Bubba was frustrated for Reed apparently screwed up JBS's fast lap...he threw and elbow in on Reeds chest. Then they both had words about it before going their own way. Is throwing an elbow in on a rider, grinding it in on the dude, in practice or competition ok to do?

Remember when Travis Preston went over to JBS and grabbed his helmet while yelling god knows what in his face about JBS pulling out in front of him and causing a wreck. I don't remember any big fines or point deductions or investigations into that incident. So maybe it's ok to grab helmets at cuss people out if you think they caused a wreck?

As for the threatening to kill him....if Reed really said, "He's going to put him into row F"...again, that is different. It's not a death threat. Maybe threatening harm.......but again, going back a few years I remember when Reed was trying to get a holeshot on the outside of the first turn and got competely PUNTED off the track. He thought JBS caused it and said, "Man, when I picked up my bike and saw JBS coming back toward me on the other section of track, I just wanted to point my bike at him and launch it." And we all know J-Law has gotten away with saying nearly anything he wants about what he plans on doing to other riders. Again, never seen any fines from riders talking trash.

I guess after hearing more about this......I don't really see anything new other than Reed losing his cool. It's still not professional to grab helmets and cuss people out, but I think Larry and Bubba are just seeing this as an opportunity to make themselves look good while slinging some dirt and frustration on Reed. If FIM decide to fine Reed, I could understand it...even though I think it would be uneven enforcement of the rules. But if it resulted in a points deduction...I think that would be unwarranted.

 

[Vic]

I have a couple of questions.

What would the point standings be if JBS's Yamaha was fuel injected?

Is it JBS's fault that his Yamaha is not fuel injected?

 

[SpDyKen]

I have a couple of questions.

What would the point standings be if JBS's Yamaha was fuel injected?

Is it JBS's fault that his Yamaha is not fuel injected?

1.) Nobody can know the answer to this. :whoa:

2.) How could it possibly be his 'fault?' Last I heard, he's just a contract employee for YMUS, and a relatively new one at that. Product planning and development decisions are made 2 to 5 years befor a model is prroduced. I really do not think that YMC was asking for Bubba's input back then, IMHO. :think:

Now I have a question? How and why does any of this matter? JBS and Larry Brooks knew what bike (and it's specs.,) they would be racing well before they signed their contracts for this season. They agreed to race the '09 YZ450F. What does carburation, and lack of F.I., have to do with anything being discussed here? I'm at a loss. Maybe Yamaha's FI (under development,) does not work well when a bike falls on it's side, and prevents a bike from starting after tipping over. Maybe that's why they decided to stay with a carb. for '09.

Just how are we to know any of this? What good does wild speculation here do?

This is what I want to know! ;)

 

[Micahdawg]

The current crop of "FI" bikes are relatively crude IMO. Like the mid 80's TBI where you essentially had a carb with a big fuel injector in it. It's more a carb than it is direct port fuel injection like we have now. And in that regard, I don't think the current carbed bikes vs. FI bikes on a Professional level make much difference.

BUT, the current FI bikes are certainly paving the way for some really whack stuff which should show some measurable advantages. I think Bubba was much more at a disadvantage outdoors when Kawasaki was late to enter the 450 thumper game and Bubba had to race a 250 smoker against everyone elses 450.

 

[dirt bike dave]

I think Bubba was much more at a disadvantage outdoors when Kawasaki was late to enter the 450 thumper game and Bubba had to race a 250 smoker against everyone elses 450.

Though he got smoked by RC in the big boy class, Bubba dominated the MX Lites on a 125 when most of the other riders were on 250 four strokes.

So he's done well with an equpiment disadvantage before, but only against weaker competition (no RC or Chad Reed).

 

[Vic]

1.) Nobody can know the answer to this. :whoa:

2.) How could it possibly be his 'fault?' Last I heard, he's just a contract employee for YMUS, and a relatively new one at that. Product planning and development decisions are made 2 to 5 years befor a model is prroduced. I really do not think that YMC was asking for Bubba's input back then, IMHO. :think:

Now I have a question? How and why does any of this matter? JBS and Larry Brooks knew what bike (and it's specs.,) they would be racing well before they signed their contracts for this season. They agreed to race the '09 YZ450F. What does carburation, and lack of F.I., have to do with anything being discussed here? I'm at a loss. Maybe Yamaha's FI (under development,) does not work well when a bike falls on it's side, and prevents a bike from starting after tipping over. Maybe that's why they decided to stay with a carb. for '09.

Just how are we to know any of this? What good does wild speculation here do?

This is what I want to know! ;)

You guys missed my point.

JBS gave up 18 points to Rad Chad The Mighty Warrior at A1, because he couldn't get his carber restarted.

No way to know if he could have recouped all 18 points, but it's a safe bet that he would have gotten back more than 5. And you know what that means. :nod:

 

[James]

You guys missed my point.

JBS gave up 18 points to Rad Chad The Mighty Warrior at A1, because he couldn't get his carber restarted.

No way to know if he could have recouped all 18 points, but it's a safe bet that he would have gotten back more than 5. And you know what that means. :nod:

"If"

If JBS didn't miss shifts and push his bike into traffic...if JBS could learn to clear out and start his bike... if JBS didn't walk off in a fit...if he got going, it's a safe bet he would have crashed himself out completely...if the points been closer, maybe Reed would have taken more chances (notice Reed's wins are coming later in the season)...If JBS stay's on two wheels (he didn't actually fall until after he stuffed his foot in the corner), it's a safe bet JBS can beat Langston outdoors...if JBS had an adamantite skeleton and mutant healing powers he would have won all those championships he was "supposed" to win.