what are they thinking?
- Thread starter slo' mo
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Sadly, men attempt to "interpret" the Bible. If people would put the time and effort into studying the Bible, as a Christian should(II Tim. 2:15), then man would realize that the Bible is THE truth. (Jn. 14:6, Rom. 9:1, Rom. 15:8, II Cor. 13:8, Gal. 2:5, Eph 4:21) THE truth is either accepted or rejected. There are no degrees of truth or partial truths.
Christianity appeared on the day of Pentecost after Christ was crusified. (Acts ch. 2) Christ's death is what established the new testament and Christ's church(Christianity). (Heb. 9: 11 & following) Many years before the multifaceted denominations were started (by man).
And as far as people being killed in the name of Christ...God nor Christ ever issued a warrant or even a liking for murder in the new Testament. Killing is a sin, plain and simple. If anyone has been killed "in the name of Christ" it was in vain, and was actually "in the name of man". On the other hand, in the old Testament, God instructed those who opposed the Jewish nation to be destroyed. The Jews fought physical wars on behalf of God. But that was under the law of Moses...not the new Testament (where Christianity is found).
If someone does not believe that the Islamic religion is a convert or die religion, then they have not read the Koran. You would be amazed at what the Koran contains!
Senior KX Rider
Super Power AssClown
- Nov 9, 1999
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Well said Corey :thumb:
Well good morning everyone, I as well am glad to see the discussion alive!
Cal, the birth of Christianity is obvious! If you are going to quote me get it right. :| I referred to the development of "Protestant Christianity" in that time frame.
My statements have been called bogus, and my relationship with Christ questioned, all because I presented facts that are documented and undisputable from a not so distant history. I do not profess to know more than anyone else here but these are the facts, and no, they don't come from the bible. I suggest a little light reading, educate yourself with more than CNN.
More to come. :ugg:
Cal, the birth of Christianity is obvious! If you are going to quote me get it right. :| I referred to the development of "Protestant Christianity" in that time frame.
My statements have been called bogus, and my relationship with Christ questioned, all because I presented facts that are documented and undisputable from a not so distant history. I do not profess to know more than anyone else here but these are the facts, and no, they don't come from the bible. I suggest a little light reading, educate yourself with more than CNN.
More to come. :ugg:
You are correct, the so called "protestant Christianity" was a product of the reformation of the Catholic church...NOT Christ's church. Christianity is Christianity and a follower of Christ is a follower of Christ. There are no divisions in Christ (I Cor. 1:10, Rom 12:5, Gal. 3:28). Using the term "protestant Christianity" is a contradiction in itself. That's like Theistic Evolution...they can't coincide. Protestant Christianity does not exist in God's word. If "protestant Christianity" is different (and it is, even simply by the name) from the Christianity found in the Bible, then it is a discrace to Christ for men to wear that name. If you obey God's will and live for Christ, then you are a Christian. Not "this kind of Christian" or "that kind of Christian". <<That was the basis of my earlier reply.
And I don't think anyone is questioning your relationship with Christ. I haven't seen it that way, and I am not intending to come across that way. If someone would have questioned it, Okie would have closed this one up tight.
- Oct 13, 1999
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I'm not sure why we perceive an imminent war with Iraq as Christian vs. Muslim. As Americans one of our Four Freedoms is Freedom of Religion. Whether we are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Atheist or whatever we need to stand united against Iraq.
I watched a show last night called 24, anyone else see this? It carried an interesting story line, to basically sum it up things have to be done that at the time may seem immoral, unethical, unconstitutional, and certainly not Christian. The end result is to save the lives of millions of people, … Christians, Moslems, Jews, Hindu, gays, blacks, whites… the point is: the act, terrible as it may seem to some, has its rational in saving the lives of many. As will a preemptive strike against a dictator and his criminal regime whom have already proven his dissonance toward his own people. So because I subscribe to this philosophy am I a bad Christian?
In every day life we see the disadvantaged out the windows of our cars, do we stop for everyone? Do we pray for their safety and offer up our hearts EVERYTIME? I did not think so. There are at last report something like 1/3 of all Africans with the AIDS virus, should we welcome them to our country to receive proper treatment? I thought that would not go over well either, ESPECIALLY when they won’t stop the behavior that is spreading the disease. This is not 1919 the “plague”, in this case, IS preventable. These are just points I’m making, that in our everyday lives we don’t follow the path of Christ, and those that say they do I often see as the biggest hypocrites. When I got married I had to convert to Catholicism to marry my wife so she did not have to leave her church, I was raised protestant, I felt it was ok to take this label to please my wife and her family, we have rarely gone to Mass as we both prefer a Baptist sermon over the Catholic pressures put upon its followers. Does this make me a bad Christian? And YES there are several divisions of Christianity, LDS, Baptists, Presbyterians, Catholics, Methodists, Pentecostal. All these faiths are strong and follow the Bible.
I have a strong personal relationship with Christ, and it is just that; Personal and Private. I don’t go around telling people they should believe or act as Christ wants them to. I’ll let you guys who seem to have the right to “cast stones” do that.
Make no mistake, the US is at war today and will be at war with Iraq very soon. The US has never been an imperialist society, that was always a role taken by France, England, and attempted by Germany. Upon success of the campaign this might be a situation to “colonize” the area. Much the way Britain successfully did with Thailand and Canada. Both great countries today. The war will bring indignation and there will be violence within our border and against our interests, but these events are going to happen even if the US were to do nothing. Get ready I say. The Jews taught the tactic of terrorism in an area called Palestine, until the British turned the matter over to the US. Because of American efforts, there is an Israel, and as of today this country receives more monetary and military aid than any other foreign country. This is just one of many reasons the Islamic faiths disagree with us, and why Moslem nations fear our policies.
Not directed at anyone, but: If your going to talk the talk, walk the walk. Don’t throw out knowledge of scripture to persuade others that you are a better Christian. That in itself is hypocritical.
In every day life we see the disadvantaged out the windows of our cars, do we stop for everyone? Do we pray for their safety and offer up our hearts EVERYTIME? I did not think so. There are at last report something like 1/3 of all Africans with the AIDS virus, should we welcome them to our country to receive proper treatment? I thought that would not go over well either, ESPECIALLY when they won’t stop the behavior that is spreading the disease. This is not 1919 the “plague”, in this case, IS preventable. These are just points I’m making, that in our everyday lives we don’t follow the path of Christ, and those that say they do I often see as the biggest hypocrites. When I got married I had to convert to Catholicism to marry my wife so she did not have to leave her church, I was raised protestant, I felt it was ok to take this label to please my wife and her family, we have rarely gone to Mass as we both prefer a Baptist sermon over the Catholic pressures put upon its followers. Does this make me a bad Christian? And YES there are several divisions of Christianity, LDS, Baptists, Presbyterians, Catholics, Methodists, Pentecostal. All these faiths are strong and follow the Bible.
I have a strong personal relationship with Christ, and it is just that; Personal and Private. I don’t go around telling people they should believe or act as Christ wants them to. I’ll let you guys who seem to have the right to “cast stones” do that.
Make no mistake, the US is at war today and will be at war with Iraq very soon. The US has never been an imperialist society, that was always a role taken by France, England, and attempted by Germany. Upon success of the campaign this might be a situation to “colonize” the area. Much the way Britain successfully did with Thailand and Canada. Both great countries today. The war will bring indignation and there will be violence within our border and against our interests, but these events are going to happen even if the US were to do nothing. Get ready I say. The Jews taught the tactic of terrorism in an area called Palestine, until the British turned the matter over to the US. Because of American efforts, there is an Israel, and as of today this country receives more monetary and military aid than any other foreign country. This is just one of many reasons the Islamic faiths disagree with us, and why Moslem nations fear our policies.
Not directed at anyone, but: If your going to talk the talk, walk the walk. Don’t throw out knowledge of scripture to persuade others that you are a better Christian. That in itself is hypocritical.
- May 5, 2000
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- Thread starter
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Dave, I don't think people are calling your relationship with Christ in question. Phillipians 2:12 states "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
God made each of us unique, to the point of DNA, fingerprints, etc... There is NO WAY everyone is going to think alike. The one thing Christians have to do is keep focused on the real object. Christ died for our sins. Pretty much everything else is of man.
We always have to be very careful of calling anything truth if it doesn't support the Word. It can be factual, but facts can be construed differently. Example: You and 5 other people witness an automobile accident - each of you then give your account to the police. Even though everyone saw the same event I would bet only two or three of the stories would actually match on details. But in the end everyone would agre on the basics. My $.02
Those are man made divisions called denominations. You won't find them, or the authority to divide the body of Christ anywhere in the Bible. You'll find just the opposite.
Well, as a Christian, I do. Mark 16:15, "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." That is the duty of a Christian. One cannot follow Christ (who came to seek and save the lost) and not attempt to teach others about Christ. Teaching is not "casting stones".
Where in the world did that come from? :think: No one here is proposing to be a better anything.
This is turning a bit personal. I'm trying to keep my replies as impersonal as I can, while getting my point across. If you want it to get personal, PM me or email me. corey@vci.net I'd be more than happy to discuss the Bible.
Bill, a war with an Islamic nation will be (at least perceived on their end) a Christian vs. Islam war. The Muslims that are in America (and alot in the Middle East) go against the Koran's instructions of conversion or death. But strict Muslims follow the Koran which instructs killing of those who do not convert. I have access to the Koran, and will try to get it tonight and post some quotes from it. (if this thread lasts that long)
- Jun 5, 2001
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I'm impressed that this has lasted this long. It has been fairly civil and has made for good reading. I wish I could participate in it but it ain't gonna happen, I don't know half of what has already been said.;) Keep it up and don't spoil it, K?!
Corey, I'm not sure why you would take anything I posted personal unless you are not whom you represent yourself to be, and I’m sure you have a big heart. My statements were made in regards to past and present history, I never even referred to any content of the Bible and the fact that there are denominations of Christianity is of fact, plain and simple these "divisions" exist.
Please do spread the gospel, I commend you, I’ll keep the teaching within my own family.
And as to your last quote of me, as I said it was not directed at anyone but formulated on past experiences of witnessing just such hypocrisy.
God bless.
Please do spread the gospel, I commend you, I’ll keep the teaching within my own family.
And as to your last quote of me, as I said it was not directed at anyone but formulated on past experiences of witnessing just such hypocrisy.
God bless.
- Oct 13, 1999
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Corey - You missed my point. What I was trying to say is that if a country, or even an entire religion, considers America it's enemy, then it considers all Americans their enemy with no regard to race, creed, color, religion, etc., etc.
Now if Americans are sypathetic to those who consider America it's enemy then they should get the hell out of America!
Now if Americans are sypathetic to those who consider America it's enemy then they should get the hell out of America!
Lot's of good stuff here, I kept thinking it was gonna shut down but you guys are being civil, have nothing to add to the religion debate except to echo Jaybird and say that I believe one of the things that make our country is freedom of religion. I also believe that Americans have the right to think a war is wrong and express that. I disagree with the folks who went to Iraq to be human shields. I don't wish them dead, but they made thier choice and have to live (or die) with it. I think this war is going to have to happen sooner or later, Saddam is not going to change into a guy who just wants to get along And I salute and am thankful for the men and women who are going to go out and fight for me. I don't think that everyone who disagrees is a traitor, but anyone who takes an active role against the US in wartime is and should be dealt with accordingly. And I really do wish that they had saved a seat on the big red bus for Hanoi Jane. Do I regret there will be collateral casualties in Iraq? Yes, Does that mean I don't support our decision to go to war? no.
I'm not taking it personal. I was referring to the personal comments you made of your life and decisions in a previous post. Nothing intended by my remarks, just that I was afraid that more personal remarks from others would follow and the thread would get shut down.
In my opinion this is getting more religious than necessary.
Organized religion is fine for those that choose that path....to each his own. If you believe the Bible is an exact history of the world...well that's fine. I believe the Bible is a collection of short stories, some fact, some fiction. The bible wasn't written in English, and has been passed down through various organized religions. I would suggest that it has been altered and interpreted to suit the agenda of those churches, but that's only an opinion. Even when a document is translated by the most ethical of people, the content and context changes. I work with translated documents daily, and translations rarely carry the full and exact intent of the original text.
I do believe there is a higher being and live my life accordingly...BUT...my God/Buda/Ala/Devine Pumpkin doesn't have a cash flow problem (thus my issue with organized religion). I don't see the need to attend mass in a church, and as an added bonus, I believe in evolution.
Don't take offence to this, these are simple beliefs that I have developed over many years. No one will convince me of the need for organized religion in MY life.
Now, back to the topic. The dispute between Iraq and the US is based on a mutual distrust, and an unwillingness by Iraq to succumb to the terms they agreed to when they lost the last war. It is no more complicated than that. The real shame is that some of the NATO countries do not support the US. In my eyes, that makes them cowards, but again, that's an opinion. I suggest their opinions would change if there were to be a significant terrorist attack on their home soil....that is also why they are likely staying out of the fray, for fear of becoming a target themselves.
For all the pissing and moaning about the military might of the US, the rest of the world depends on their support when they are in trouble.
Organized religion is fine for those that choose that path....to each his own. If you believe the Bible is an exact history of the world...well that's fine. I believe the Bible is a collection of short stories, some fact, some fiction. The bible wasn't written in English, and has been passed down through various organized religions. I would suggest that it has been altered and interpreted to suit the agenda of those churches, but that's only an opinion. Even when a document is translated by the most ethical of people, the content and context changes. I work with translated documents daily, and translations rarely carry the full and exact intent of the original text.
I do believe there is a higher being and live my life accordingly...BUT...my God/Buda/Ala/Devine Pumpkin doesn't have a cash flow problem (thus my issue with organized religion). I don't see the need to attend mass in a church, and as an added bonus, I believe in evolution.
Don't take offence to this, these are simple beliefs that I have developed over many years. No one will convince me of the need for organized religion in MY life.
Now, back to the topic. The dispute between Iraq and the US is based on a mutual distrust, and an unwillingness by Iraq to succumb to the terms they agreed to when they lost the last war. It is no more complicated than that. The real shame is that some of the NATO countries do not support the US. In my eyes, that makes them cowards, but again, that's an opinion. I suggest their opinions would change if there were to be a significant terrorist attack on their home soil....that is also why they are likely staying out of the fray, for fear of becoming a target themselves.
For all the pissing and moaning about the military might of the US, the rest of the world depends on their support when they are in trouble.
I do take that statement personal(because I base my life on The Bible). I'm not upset, I just want to stress that, that is your opinion. It is NOT that way. The Bible has not been "passed down". The Bible is The Bible. The prints that we read are translations and each one may have slightly different sentence structure, but the context is The Truth. If a certain translation does not follow the original text, then it should be ignored. The most accurate way to study The Bible is to use a Lexicon or learn Greek and Hebrew. With a Lexicon you can see what the orignal written words were and compare/check translations. Just had to throw that out there for my conscience' sake.
Now back to our regularly scheduled thread...
- May 5, 2000
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- Thread starter
- #69
I also appreciate everyone being civil, while this thread has digressed into a topic that is a no-no on these boards, I certainly have my views and respect the views of others. I don't agree with them but I respect them, as long as they are not conflicting with the rights established when this country was founded.
I think the "freedom of religion" has been interpreted falsely by the courts but I also have a very good friend who is atheist. We have had some great discussions resulting in no change on either side, but I still call him a friend.
Bottom line - I guess these 50 are going to find out the "real scoop" very soon.
Jay, anytime.
I think the "freedom of religion" has been interpreted falsely by the courts but I also have a very good friend who is atheist. We have had some great discussions resulting in no change on either side, but I still call him a friend.
Bottom line - I guess these 50 are going to find out the "real scoop" very soon.
Jay, anytime.
- Feb 9, 2000
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What is it about the story of the good Samaritan that made the Pharisees and Jews so angry ? This parable is what Christianity is all about (and what Judaism, and Islam are not!). The Samaritans were an enemy, religious opponents, there was an extreme disliking of each other by Jews and Samaritans. The idea that Jews and their allies/friends turned their back on one of their own who had been robbed and beaten, and who was left to be helped be a Samaritan galled them to no end. Christianity is no 'flower power hippy love fest', and much of what is required of us, is bitter and galling to swallow. This leads us to WHY was Jesus executed, and I am not talking about the mushy, save your soul stuff, but the reasons why Christ was executed. - his attacks on the Sadducees and Pharisees had them scared, angered, bewildered. The people expected a King, a Messiah, someone who was going to get rid of the Romans and their corrupt religious leaders. Barabas (whose name also was Jesus), was a rebel, a freedom fighter, a rogue whose actions and ideals the people could understand and sympathize with. Pilot stacked the deck in his favor when he gave them Barabas. Judas expected a warrior king, he was not prepared to accept the terms and expectations that Jesus required of him. Now what really makes the death and execution of Jesus Christ so exceptional, and what defines our faith and required actions, is that Jesus was obedient, to the bitter end. He could have saved himself, yet he took the beating, the whipping, the taunts, the jeers, the agony, pain and humiliation. This was walking the walk, the example, the absolute and ultimate example, of what obedience, and sacrifice is all about. When he asked that the cup be taken from him, he was scared and tormented. He knew what bitter and painful things which lay ahead. He asked/begged his father for another option, yet in the end he obeyed his father. Obedience, servitude, and sacrifice - three very bitter pills to swallow.
As an end note Barabas was recaptured by the Romans again, and sent to work and die in the salt mines. He was tormented by the knowledge that an innocent man had died instead of him. He despised Jesus, and for years, hated the very idea of who and what was Jesus. One can only imagine the torment he went through. In the end he was sent to Rome to fight and die as a gladiator. This is where he met the Christians who were being fed to the lions, and whom he also had to kill. This tormented him even more. When he could take it no longer, he broke down, and finally submitted to the will of God. He was executed and crucified upside down along with his fellow Christians.
One has to ask the question if we are a Christian, "Are we a Barabas, or are we a Judas ?"
I am sure there are some holes in my account above, so feel free to point them out.
Neil Wig, as you can see, the bible has some fascinating stories - which in this case are based on fact. Much of our laws, and even vocabulary are based on laws, words and phrases written in the bible. The more you study the bible, the more you will be impressed/fascinated/intrigued (maybe depressed!) by it all. ;)
As an end note Barabas was recaptured by the Romans again, and sent to work and die in the salt mines. He was tormented by the knowledge that an innocent man had died instead of him. He despised Jesus, and for years, hated the very idea of who and what was Jesus. One can only imagine the torment he went through. In the end he was sent to Rome to fight and die as a gladiator. This is where he met the Christians who were being fed to the lions, and whom he also had to kill. This tormented him even more. When he could take it no longer, he broke down, and finally submitted to the will of God. He was executed and crucified upside down along with his fellow Christians.
One has to ask the question if we are a Christian, "Are we a Barabas, or are we a Judas ?"
I am sure there are some holes in my account above, so feel free to point them out.
Neil Wig, as you can see, the bible has some fascinating stories - which in this case are based on fact. Much of our laws, and even vocabulary are based on laws, words and phrases written in the bible. The more you study the bible, the more you will be impressed/fascinated/intrigued (maybe depressed!) by it all. ;)
B
biglou
All of this still begs the question: "What about these people?" How much latitude do you give someone? How wild do you let someone become before you lock them away? Is this not passing judgement? Is this not necessary? When do the laws of common sense and self-preservation kick in and you decide to say "ENOUGH!"? At what point does man take action against man? After a person is killed? Ten people? A million? After some horrible, disfiguring attack, much worse than what we have seen to date? After a nuclear explosion renders half our population dead/mamed/doomed? How much do you tolerate from those within our borders, citizens or not, before you put a stop to it? Do you wait for them to do something really horrible? What's it gonna take before we, Americans and our friends alike, stand up for what is decent and right and correct in this real live scary world we live in and take some measure of control? Acting, not reacting? Are we not allowed to take an active-defensive role in our daily lives? Do I let a murderer take my life because it would be wrong of me to kill him first? I think not. Not me. No way.
- Feb 9, 2000
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Lou, ever see the movie "The Mission" with Jeremy Irons and Robert Deniro - powerful stuff, pretty much deals with these issues and struggles directly. The movie leaves you without answering the question who is right, or who is wrong, but does leave you questioning your faith. If you haven't seen the movie, it is well worth the rental.
