'09 CRF450R problem already...

Kawi4life · Mar 4, 2009

holeshot said:
The bike feels light ... bring your checkbook.

Actually I went to check the bike out today, I wanted to at least see it in person before I committed to buying anything, and my nearest Honda dealer which is also a Yamaha dealer doesn't even have one motocross bike from any brand on the floor.

Sales must really be down when two different dealers in my area have told me they haven't gotten any 09 MX bikes yet when normally they get them the fall before and normally sell out before the changing of the year. Anyhow, the owner of the Honda dealer told me that somewhere in march or april the prices of the Hondas was actually going to go up - wonder if this has anything to do with the recall covering the cost of parts?

Well I've tried around everywhere and the best deal I could find on a brand new bike in driving distance to me was $5500 out the door for a 07 KX450f leftover - they claimed that was invoice price. When the Honda dealer gave me the out the door price on the new 09 Honda, lol, that pretty much sealed the deal for the leftover KX450f.

I don't get all the new fancy fuel injection like you guys have, but still, the machine is still fairly top of the line in my opinion. Could be worse, I could be stuck with one of those no name chinese bikes that fall apart in one ride, lol. I was watching some videos on youtube last night about those chinese bikes and they're pitiful, lol. I feel very lucky to able to get a brand new quality Kawasaki, even if it's a two year older model, heh. ;)

Rich Rohrich · Mar 4, 2009

Kawi4life said:
Anyhow, the owner of the Honda dealer told me that somewhere in march or april the prices of the Hondas was actually going to go up - wonder if this has anything to do with the recall covering the cost of parts?

It's due to the yen appreciation against the dollar.

Kawi4life · Mar 4, 2009

Rich Rohrich said:
It's due to the yen appreciation against the dollar.

Ahh.. I see.

biglou · Mar 5, 2009

There's nothin' wrong with that KX450. :cool:

mxwm464 · Mar 8, 2009

Well boys you have really torqued off my husband tonight. We bought two of the 09 Honda's. We have really liked the power and responsiveness but he has hated how hard it is to start. For some reason my bike starts on the first or second kick unless I stalled it, whereas his bike takes seven or eight kicks and sometimes he has to use the cold start. We checked the vin #'s and both bikes are affected. He will be calling the shop tomorrow but he hates anyone working on our bikes. By looking at the shop manual he believes the entire cam shaft has to be replaced. Is that what the shops are telling you? We are suppose to be going to Glamis in April but he told me I cannot ride my bike until this is fixed. :bang: I hope the CA shops are the parts.

railer · Mar 9, 2009

mxwm464 said:
Well boys you have really torqued off my husband tonight. We bought two of the 09 Honda's. We have really liked the power and responsiveness but he has hated how hard it is to start. For some reason my bike starts on the first or second kick unless I stalled it, whereas his bike takes seven or eight kicks and sometimes he has to use the cold start. We checked the vin #'s and both bikes are affected. He will be calling the shop tomorrow but he hates anyone working on our bikes. By looking at the shop manual he believes the entire cam shaft has to be replaced. Is that what the shops are telling you? We are suppose to be going to Glamis in April but he told me I cannot ride my bike until this is fixed. :bang: I hope the CA shops are the parts.

HAHA, I'm in the EXACT same boat (except I'm going to Glamis in 1.5 weeks). Had the camshaft problem once already, shop replaced the whole camshaft free of charge, but from a bike that may be in the "affected" list also, so it could very well be another bad shaft. Only been out once since, so far so good.

As for the recall, call your local shop. Mine said they'd have the parts in end of March. Kind of a problem considering my trip happens before that, but we'll see what happens. I may give them a call this week and find out if they've got them in yet.

Starting-wise, mine is hard to start sometimes too. And when it doesn't wanna start, IT DOESN'T WANNA START. It gets to the point where I'm sweating bullets trying to get the damn thing to turn over. I literally kicked it for 10 minutes one day and once I finally got it started, I had to take a nap. Other times, I'll kick it 5 times quick to charge the EFI, then I find the TDC, one kick and it's roarin'. I dunno. I guess the bike has mood swings.

As for running, once it's started, runs like a top. No complaints there. But seriously, the starting thing does get annoying. If I was racing, I'd be pissed if it stalled and I had to get it back quick during a heat, cuz it doesn't like hot starts either. Weird.

Brian.

biglou · Mar 10, 2009

Hmm, 2-3 kicks for me regardless if it's been sitting for 2 minutes or two months! And I still need to call the dealer and check if mine's in the VIN range...

_JOE_ · Mar 10, 2009

Ok, so if they're hard to start what's the advantage of EFI?

_JOE_ · Mar 10, 2009

biglou said:
Hmm, 2-3 kicks for me regardless if it's been sitting for 2 minutes or two months! And I still need to call the dealer and check if mine's in the VIN range...

That's more like what I would expect.

biglou · Mar 10, 2009

Last time I rode, I'd come in after my usual 3-5 laps, kill it, then gently nudge the kickstarter..."yep, still moving!" so I'd know I'd get at least one more go out of it! ;)

Supposed to hit it again this weekend. 50 and sunny on Saturday.

whenfoxforks-ruled · Mar 10, 2009

You are missing the snow storm Lou? Them bikes with starting issues, wtf? Are they mapped different? A problem with a sensor, or a mechanical issue? Even on tv, as long as the pros remember to put the bike in neutral, they fire right up.

_JOE_ · Mar 10, 2009

Yeah, I love it when you see a pro racer trying to start his bike in gear. You'd think they would realize it's faster to take a second to find neutral.

biglou · Mar 10, 2009

And twisting the throttle. Most of these lites guys are young enough to have spent most of their time on 4-strokes, they should know better. I am always amazed when the bike starts while the camera is watching them and i can see them twisting away with every kick.

railer · Mar 10, 2009

Lou, this really bothers me. Do you have your fast idle knob pulled out when you start it? are there any special techniques you use? I can't believe how much trouble I'm having with starting this bike....sometimes.

Brian.

biglou · Mar 10, 2009

Always out when cold. If I rest long between riding, then I pull it out again. I also tend to run the idle fast when cold. First time starting, I'll pull the knob out and turn it CCW a couple clicks. As it warms up (fairly quickly) I push the fast idle knob in, and then turn it back to as low an idle as I dare.

railer · Mar 10, 2009

okay, well I just went over to my storage unit a little while ago to put the paddle tire that FedEx dropped off in there. Decided I would try to start it for sh*ts and giggles. Didn't touch the fast idle knob,gave it a few quick kicks to charge the EFI, found TDC, boom, started right up. :whoa: I'll never understand. Guess it's a matter of catching it at the right time. :think:

nsxxtreme · Mar 11, 2009

Rich Rohrich said:
Four-strokes are no more difficult to maintain then modern two-strokes, but enough people who have never laid hands on one are convinced otherwise. Then you get guys like you parroting the same bad info when it's clear they have no experience to back it up, and the cycle continues.

I don't know rich I would politely disagree. More moving parts= more maintenance costs. That is the great thing about two strokes there is less moving parts to wear out. The four stroke pretty much has everything a 2 stroke has plus more. So you still have the same maintance on the general items plus the additional items required to make up a 4 stroke. Timing chain,cam,valve seats, valve guides, valves and misc other parts all of which add to the cost of properly maintaining a bike. And as you said if something does go wrong on a 4 stroke the cost can be really expensive. There is something to be said about having fewer moving parts and a really simple motor.

Rich Rohrich said:
For a lot of people four-strokes are just more fun to ride, and they work. If they weren't they wouldn't sell as well as they do, and two-strokes wouldn't have been collecting dust on the dealer floor.

I think they sell the way they do because of the sanctioning of the races. If people really had a choice and the dissplacement in the races was more equalized I think it would be the four stokes collecting dust JMO. Who wouldn't want a lighter and more powerful bike given equal displacement, other then tree huggers that is.

Rich Rohrich · Mar 11, 2009

nsxxtreme said:
I don't know rich I would politely disagree. More moving parts= more maintenance costs.

If you go back and read what I wrote, you'll see I was talking about difficulty of maintanence not cost.

Anyone who has the mechanical ability to properly maintain a modern two-stroke, can do the same on a modern Japanese four-stroke.

Engines that rev to 13,500 will always be more expensive to maintain than lower speed engines, whether it's a 2t or a 4t. Maintenance has always been proportional to rpm. There is nothing new there.

More parts and higher rpm at the same basic power levels will always translate to increased costs.

If that's a sticking point for you, then by all means avoid the new 4ts. There are plenty of 2ts left out there and Service Honda is adding to the choices all the time. :cool:

nsxxtreme said:
I think they sell the way they do because of the sanctioning of the races. If people really had a choice and the dissplacement in the races was more equalized I think it would be the four stokes collecting dust JMO. .

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but it doesn't really seem to hold up in the harsh light of reality.

Only a tiny precentage of the MX bikes sold each year ever get used in sanctioned competion. The bulk get ridden by play riders. People buy what they enjoy riding. Currently that happens to be modern four-strokes. Five years from now it may be electric bikes. Once thing seems pretty certain. Fun will drive the sales, not some sanctioning organization's rule book. ;)

Nice theory, but the facts seem to disagree with you.

flyingfuzzball · Mar 11, 2009

Rich Rohrich said:
Fun will drive the sales, not some sanctioning organization's rule book.

yea i mean its not like they will stop selling kids bikes. oh wait :whoa:

but i do agree with you in someways rich but i disagree too. i think that what people see winning does affect what they buy in a way as they see rider X doing good on whatever his bike is and go WOW i want that bike cuz it must be good.

of course you have to look at how its a recreational sport so people are going to buy what is fun which is different for everyone. personally i think an electric bike would be a blast. not only could you ride it in your backyard but you could sneak up on people.

nsxxtreme · Mar 11, 2009

Rich Rohrich said:
If you go back and read what I wrote, you'll see I was talking about difficulty of maintanence not cost.

I can agree on that although I think 4 strokes in general are a little more complicated. But someone that is not affraid to tackle a 2 stoke should have no problems with a 4stroke.

Rich Rohrich said:
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but it doesn't really seem to hold up in the harsh light of reality.

Only a tiny precentage of the MX bikes sold each year ever get used in sanctioned competion. The bulk get ridden by play riders. People buy what they enjoy riding. Currently that happens to be modern four-strokes. Five years from now it may be electric bikes. Once thing seems pretty certain. Fun will drive the sales, not some sanctioning organization's rule book. ;)

Nice theory, but the facts seem to disagree with you.

In order for the 4 strokes to survive I believe the environment needed to be created that would kill the 2 stroke. Like the displacement advantage given to the 4 strokes in races. People see this and say WOW I got to get me one of those because the half sized 2 stroke loses. Put equal displacement to equal displacement and I would bet you would see a surge in 2 stroke purchases. But that will never happen 4 strokes are more expensive and there has to be a large demand to support the research and development of these bikes. If the demand went to the 2 strokes there wouldn't be enough 4 stroke owners to support manufacturing these bikes.

I also think it's a size thing in the over simplified male brain bigger is better. Saying you have a 450 over a 250 sounds more manly LOL.

I do think the new 4strokes are nice bikes but they only survive because the 2 stroke has been laid out to pasture. Not because the 4 stroke is a better bike. Given equal displacement I believe the 2 stroke is a superiour design in every way possible other then emissions.

nsxxtreme · Mar 11, 2009

flyingfuzzball said:
of course you have to look at how its a recreational sport so people are going to buy what is fun which is different for everyone. personally i think an electric bike would be a blast. not only could you ride it in your backyard but you could sneak up on people.

I think there would be a lot of injuries with electric bikes. 100% torque from a dead start. They would need a way to control the torue on an electric engine to prevent people from killing themselves :laugh:

_JOE_ · Mar 11, 2009

nsxxtreme said:
Given equal displacement I believe the 2 stroke is a superiour design in every way possible other then emissions.

This is flatulance of the mouth, lol. :nener:

Think about that for a minute. You have a 250 2 stroke. It burns quite a bit more fuel than a 250f. It makes a few more ponies than the 250f but does so in a narrower window. This is NOT GOOD in some situations. It tends to struggle to find traction in some conditions where the 250f can hook up and go. You have a large, vulnerable expansion chamber hanging out right behind the front wheel. There's the power valve system that can wear out/break.

I would actually say that the 4 stroke is a far better design when you look at everything other than peak hp. Take the xr250 for example. It gets far better fuel economy and requires less maintenance than any 2 stroke.

There's definately pros and cons to each design. No one can say what bike will work best for anyone else.

Chili · Mar 11, 2009

_JOE_ said:
This is flatulance of the mouth, lol. :nener:

Think about that for a minute. You have a 250 2 stroke. It burns quite a bit more fuel than a 250f. It makes a few more ponies than the 250f but does so in a narrower window. This is NOT GOOD in some situations. It tends to struggle to find traction in some conditions where the 250f can hook up and go. You have a large, vulnerable expansion chamber hanging out right behind the front wheel. There's the power valve system that can wear out/break.

I would actually say that the 4 stroke is a far better design when you look at everything other than peak hp. Take the xr250 for example. It gets far better fuel economy and requires less maintenance than any 2 stroke.

There's definately pros and cons to each design. No one can say what bike will work best for anyone else.

Joe, You been drinking tonight? You base the 4 stroke superiority on comparing fuel mileage and maintenance intervals of an XR250 to a 2 stroke race bike :coocoo:

Then there is that vulernable 2 stroke power valve compared to a complete 250F valve train? :coocoo:

CC for CC the 2 stroke will be the much faster machine IN THE RIGHT HANDS That being said I can go much faster with less effort and skill for longer on my kids 250F than I could on my 250 smoker. This reason alone is the reason I'm trying my first 4 stroke this year.

nsxxtreme · Mar 12, 2009

_JOE_ said:
This is flatulance of the mouth, lol. :nener:

Think about that for a minute. You have a 250 2 stroke. It burns quite a bit more fuel than a 250f. It makes a few more ponies than the 250f but does so in a narrower window. This is NOT GOOD in some situations. It tends to struggle to find traction in some conditions where the 250f can hook up and go. You have a large, vulnerable expansion chamber hanging out right behind the front wheel. There's the power valve system that can wear out/break.

I would actually say that the 4 stroke is a far better design when you look at everything other than peak hp. Take the xr250 for example. It gets far better fuel economy and requires less maintenance than any 2 stroke.

There's definately pros and cons to each design. No one can say what bike will work best for anyone else.

I can never burn through more then 2 tanks full of gas on my 2 stroke in a given day. Gas mileage is no problem for me. More HP means your going to burn more fuel that is a given. Burning oil sucks but I'm not a tree hugger and my bike doesn't put out anywhere near the polution output of the SUVs everyone like to drive in a years amount of time. I think these bikes are an extremely small part of the polution problem and it sucks that they attack these bikes and not the 10 mpg SUVs.

While a narrow power band is true for pre power valve 2 strokes (exspecially for smaller bikes). My 250 has a very decent wide power band. In fact you never actually feel the power band hit. A 250f has a dyno plot that is more similiar to a cr125 then a cr250.

CC for CC a 2 stroke will have more power. Less moving parts = less parts to break and wear out. Which IMO is a good thing.

I think the problem most people have is they tend to buy smaller bikes then they should. I have a friend that wants a 125 because he is scared of the 250. The 250 has such a wider torque curve that it would be more "controlable" then the 125. Add all the technology that they are adding to the 4 strokes like fuel injection and all the other goodies and a new 2 stroke would be a sweat bike. I still stand by my statement that a 2 stroke is better design all around other then emissions. We can agree to disagree and call it a day. :cool:

_JOE_ · Mar 12, 2009

Chili said:
Joe, You been drinking tonight? You base the 4 stroke superiority on comparing fuel mileage and maintenance intervals of an XR250 to a 2 stroke race bike :coocoo:

Then there is that vulernable 2 stroke power valve compared to a complete 250F valve train? :coocoo:

CC for CC the 2 stroke will be the much faster machine IN THE RIGHT HANDS That being said I can go much faster with less effort and skill for longer on my kids 250F than I could on my 250 smoker. This reason alone is the reason I'm trying my first 4 stroke this year.

I was trying to prove that not all 4 strokes are high wearing engines and 2 strokes do have more moving parts than a crank and piston. There ARE things a 4 stroke can do better. In a racing engine cc for cc the smoker will certainly build more peak hp. As we all know peak hp doesn't equal low lap times. A 2 stroke tends to accelerate rider fatigue. I would venture a guess that if you were to even the power output of a 4 stroke to that of a 2 stroke people would still ride the 4t. Having owned both bikes back to back I can say the 250f is a great bike. The only time I notice less power is in the upper rpm's and when I'm tired. It actually feels torquier in the lower end. Obviously Mr NSX hasn't ridden a properly tuned 250f if he thinks the dyno would show some similarity to a 125. The 250f is not built for reliability, it is built to make the maximum amount of power. This is what people asked for. The xr250 was built for reliability and will outlast most 2 strokes, so saying that 2 strokes are more reliable than 4 strokes can't be a ganeralized statement. As far as competition models go, sure, but that's what the guy who buys a 250f wants right?

'09 CRF450R problem already...

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