I recently replaced the seals in my forks.. that was all done correctly and they went back together fine. However, now they r soo stiff for the first inch or two of travel. Over table tops n such they r fine... id never expect them to bottom because i weigh 135lbs.. but when on a trail, they dont move at all. Even when my buddy, who is 330lbs, rode it.. they still didnt move except for harsh bumps... the compression clicker is the softest it can go n the rebound is where i usually ride it.. at click 4 or 5. ive got 375ml of oil in each one.. 5wt.. i think that is jus about the limit.. what have i done wrong to make them this stiff??
1999 CR250 Stiff Forks
- Thread starter stangmx13
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too much oil or the axle is binding. Loosen up the right side pinch bolts (not the brake side), bounce it up and down several times, and re-torque the bolts. If it isn't better, lower your oil level. I think I am using 325ml in my 00 (same fork basically) and I weight 240 or so.
Did they move fine before?
Did they move fine before?
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- #3
ya they moved great b4.. jus stiff because i weigh so little.. then i crashed hard enough to bend my TAG bars n give me a concussion and i blew the seals right after that cause of too much mud
i lossened the axel and practically stood on the handlebars w/ the bike on a stand n the forks moved about and inch.. the axel didnt move at all.. should the oil be below the wider part of the dampener?? like they both make like an air mixing w/ oil noise when i first compress em.. bubbles
ive also read stuff bout Showa forks being two chambers.. and that the inner chamber oil does not mix w/ the outer one.. could i have too much oil in the inner one?
i lossened the axel and practically stood on the handlebars w/ the bike on a stand n the forks moved about and inch.. the axel didnt move at all.. should the oil be below the wider part of the dampener?? like they both make like an air mixing w/ oil noise when i first compress em.. bubbles
ive also read stuff bout Showa forks being two chambers.. and that the inner chamber oil does not mix w/ the outer one.. could i have too much oil in the inner one?
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Did you change the oil or add oil to the inner chamber? You can't have too much oil in the inner one, but if you didn't properly bleed the inner chamber and blow out the excess oil before reassembling the forks, all of that extra oil will end up in the outer chamber adding to what already sounds like too much oil.
Were they stiff after the crash or only after you changed the seals? From what I read, it sounds like you rode it some after the crash?
Also, your rebound clickers could be turned all the way in. If you re-assembled the forks correctly, the rebound adjusters get turned full tight while turning the center bolt back on to the damper rod. Did you check these after putting the forks back together?
I think that bubbles sound is your springs moving in there and to be honest, I have never looked to see how high the oil looks in relation to the wider part of the damper (I will next time ;) )
Were they stiff after the crash or only after you changed the seals? From what I read, it sounds like you rode it some after the crash?
Also, your rebound clickers could be turned all the way in. If you re-assembled the forks correctly, the rebound adjusters get turned full tight while turning the center bolt back on to the damper rod. Did you check these after putting the forks back together?
I think that bubbles sound is your springs moving in there and to be honest, I have never looked to see how high the oil looks in relation to the wider part of the damper (I will next time ;) )
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- #5
i changed the seals.. they were stiff.. then crashed.. still stiff.. changed the seals again... also still stiff
i drained all the oil out of the forks the first time i replaced the seals.. well as much as i possibly could.. pumped the rod until it stopped dripping oil... put in way too much oil with the new seals.. blew the seals when i let my 330lb friend ride it.. drained all the oil again n put in 375ml... i think im gonna go take out atleast 50ml from each fork n c how that goes
wat is the absolute minimum of oil that i can have in there? i thought that 375ml.. which i read off of mx-tech... was the minimum.
i drained all the oil out of the forks the first time i replaced the seals.. well as much as i possibly could.. pumped the rod until it stopped dripping oil... put in way too much oil with the new seals.. blew the seals when i let my 330lb friend ride it.. drained all the oil again n put in 375ml... i think im gonna go take out atleast 50ml from each fork n c how that goes
wat is the absolute minimum of oil that i can have in there? i thought that 375ml.. which i read off of mx-tech... was the minimum.
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- #6
ya... took out 100ml from each fork.. thats 275ml in each.. and its soo much better... full compression.. clicker #24 is about the same as they used to be... thanks for all ure help James.. if u think 275 is not enough plz tell me
boy i cant wait for my .38 springs to come in next week
boy i cant wait for my .38 springs to come in next week
I think 375 is the standard level, you most likely can go lower than that but you'd need a manual to be sure. I re-read your first post and noticed your rebound settings this time.
Also, the bike needs to be off the stand if you are bouncing the front end to settle the forks. With the ride side axle pinch bolts loose, you should be able to tell real quick if binding was the problem.
It's hard for me to say exactly what it is without being there. My guesses were the binding, oil level, lower triple clamp pinch bolts too tight, or something is bent/damaged possibly. Your rebound seems a little tight too but it may be right for your weight. I'll let somebody else take a shot at helping.
Also, the bike needs to be off the stand if you are bouncing the front end to settle the forks. With the ride side axle pinch bolts loose, you should be able to tell real quick if binding was the problem.
It's hard for me to say exactly what it is without being there. My guesses were the binding, oil level, lower triple clamp pinch bolts too tight, or something is bent/damaged possibly. Your rebound seems a little tight too but it may be right for your weight. I'll let somebody else take a shot at helping.
stangmx13 said:
Sorry, I was posting that last one at the same time you were. I don't think 275 is enough. I just went out and checked my manual and it says 11.1 ounces or 325 ml is the minimum on the 2000 and like I said earlier, I think our forks are virtually the same.
But at least we made some progress :yeehaw:
I think the chart says about 10-12ml stays in there after 5 minutes time draining at 50-70 degrees. If it were mine, I'd start at 325 unless I could find info particular to that model. If you dumped the oil and immediately added 275, then you probably have 285-290 and need to add another 40-35. I don't think it will be the end of the world if it isn't exact. Just go slow til you know all is good.
- Thread starter
- #12
sweet.. now i can take out another 12ml n still be save.. good to kno
im guessing that when i sit on the bike.. both front n rear suspension should sag.. however my forks dont move at all.. am i gonna help that w/ the new springs i ordered or should i add a lil preload to the rear spring?
im guessing that when i sit on the bike.. both front n rear suspension should sag.. however my forks dont move at all.. am i gonna help that w/ the new springs i ordered or should i add a lil preload to the rear spring?
darringer, rule of thumb is that the oil level mostly affects last 1/3 but these showa forks seem to get real harsh early in the stroke with too much oil.
stang, if your rear spring is preloaded correctly, the forks should sag a little. So I'd say add preload to your shock only if it needs it, otherwise, getting the correct springs for your weight should sag the forks a bit.
My motocross forks sag about 1.5-2 inches and my woods forks sag about 3".
stang, if your rear spring is preloaded correctly, the forks should sag a little. So I'd say add preload to your shock only if it needs it, otherwise, getting the correct springs for your weight should sag the forks a bit.
My motocross forks sag about 1.5-2 inches and my woods forks sag about 3".
marcusgunby
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Theory would say the showas should be more tolerant of high oil levels than a kyb as the kyb displaces the fluid into the outchamber as it compresses and so has even less room to fill up.
However who ever raced a theory?
However who ever raced a theory?
I have to admit Marcus that it baffles me as well. But on one set, I took 4 shims out of the basevalve, a shim out of the midvalve, set the clickers to full soft, and these forks were harsher with 13.5 ozs of oil than an identical set with stock valving, stock settings, and 11.5 ozs. If I run any of them at standard oil levels, I get beat up on the rocky trails and even on the track.
But we aren't comparing to KYBs exactly. Do KYBs also get harsher early in the stroke with higher oil levels?
But we aren't comparing to KYBs exactly. Do KYBs also get harsher early in the stroke with higher oil levels?
stangmx13
Did the forks work decently BFORE the crash?
Did you use a torque wrench to tighten the triple clamps?
Do the forks slide in the clamps fairly easily?
Did you check the axle to make sure it isn't bent?
Did you move the fork tubes up and down with the cartridge out to see if they are binding?
Did you move the cartridge assemblies full stroke to make sure something hasn't broken internally?
You really need to pull them apart and start from scratch. If they don't move at all when you sit on the bike they are likely binding somwhere.
Did the forks work decently BFORE the crash?
Did you use a torque wrench to tighten the triple clamps?
Do the forks slide in the clamps fairly easily?
Did you check the axle to make sure it isn't bent?
Did you move the fork tubes up and down with the cartridge out to see if they are binding?
Did you move the cartridge assemblies full stroke to make sure something hasn't broken internally?
You really need to pull them apart and start from scratch. If they don't move at all when you sit on the bike they are likely binding somwhere.
marcusgunby
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James interesting stuff, i think ics and main springs ,oil thickness play a bit part in the showas, you can go down on rates compared with kybs, and yes kybs do get harsh with high oil levels but the 48mm are a bit more tolerant due to volume i guess.
dont know if you tried this yet but,have you tried re tourqing yhe triple clamp pinch bolts?the showas are prone to binding up when they are too tight.i think the top bolts need 16 ft lbs and the bottom is 14 ft lbs.i dont have my manual with me,so check out what the proper tourqe is for yours.hope that helps...
darringer
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kuritaro9, you are correct on the torque settings. Especially critical are the lower clamp bolt torque. I had over-tightened mine and noticed more harshness/binding. After re-torquing upeer and lower clamps the harhsness disappeared.
James, I didn't think that using different oil levels in my Showas would help initial harshness. It's a good thing to know. I'll try lowering my oil level to get rid of some of the small chop harshness I can't seem to get rid of.
James, I didn't think that using different oil levels in my Showas would help initial harshness. It's a good thing to know. I'll try lowering my oil level to get rid of some of the small chop harshness I can't seem to get rid of.
marcusgunby
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Also ive found on showas sometimes they just bind up even without crashing-they can get super stiff on the initial part, you take them apart(mainly the seals and bushes) and they all of a sudden free up-this isnt a case of the forks out of line as they tend to do this when sitting for periods of time.
It has seemed to work for me. Let me know if you get the same results. It could all be in my head and I don't claim to be an expert. :)darringer said:
Thickness for sure. I tried the whole ATF thing and got beat to death also. Haven't messed with the inner chamber spring yet but that is mostly because I have found all the plushness I need. Haven't had the opportunity to look inside those new kybs yet. I am still a suspension hobbyist. ;)marcus said:
I agree with LEW, if stuff isn't moving with all of the easy setup stuff taken care of, you really need to look for bent/binding parts.
marcusgunby
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I still havnt seem the new Showkybs, from what people say they need a little dialing in still.
James
I've got a friends 99 CR250 forks that I'm rebuilding. He only weighs 160 and woods rides in lots of rocks. You can imagine it is harsh.
I am going to try removing the 18 & 15 from the comp stack.
One 24x.10 shim from the mid-valve <it has 8x24x.10's stock>.
.40 springs
325cc 5w30 Mobil One in outer-chamber
Sound like something that should be close? :uh:
I've got a friends 99 CR250 forks that I'm rebuilding. He only weighs 160 and woods rides in lots of rocks. You can imagine it is harsh.
I am going to try removing the 18 & 15 from the comp stack.
One 24x.10 shim from the mid-valve <it has 8x24x.10's stock>.
.40 springs
325cc 5w30 Mobil One in outer-chamber
Sound like something that should be close? :uh:
