Another slam on 4 strokes...Roger Decoster speaks

[john3_16]

In the current issue of Transworld MX (I think) there is a good interview with Decoster and he said something to the effect that the move to 4 strokes have made things more complicated and instead of just 1 mechanic per bike, they now need 3 mechanics per bike... :whoa:


WOW...Next time someone says that 4 strokes aren't that much harder to work on or that they don't require that much more maintenance you can just point out that mag article...I think that the manager of a race team would know a little better...

Went to a new track out towards east Texas last weekend after reading that article and talked to a nice fellow parked next to us that had a new RMZ 450 and his son rides an RMZ 250...The 450 sounded and looked pretty good so I gave him a compliment on the bike...First thing he jokingly says, " I miss the 2 strokes now, I could do a top end in less than an hour, now it takes 40".

Obviously he was exaggerating a bit but he was serious about how much more difficult and expensive it is with both him and his son on 4 stroke race bikes...He went on to describe that his sons other RMZ 250 engine was completely destroyed when the rod broke and broke the cylinder and put a hole in the cases... :whoa:

He really liked his RMZ450..Except for when he noticed the engine suddenly running hot and next thing the piston pin broke and his valves were destroyed...It required him to replace all his valves, piston ect ect and split the cases ect ect....The cylinder/head/cases were fine but he indicated that it was a huge job...

The previous issue of TWMX did a mechanics survey and most of them disliked the move to 4 strokes as well...

Interesting.....

 

[Okiewan]

Keep up the good fight mister!

 

[KDX CRAZY]

Its the way the bunny huggers want things and the way the manufacturers are moving , only the cunsumers loose out with high maintenance costs and parts .

Lets hope that 2 strokes will not be phased out too soon .

 

[SQUIRLEYMOFO]

I bought a left over 03 CR250 in October, because I wanter a two-stroke. Everybody is giving me grief because I don't ride a four-stroke. I smiled Sunday when my Brother-in-laws almost new CRF450 wouldn't start. I don't think it's anything serious, but he doesn't have that superior attitude anymore. I'm trying to figure out how to buy a new YZ 250. I want to keep my CR and get a YZ.

 

[nephron]

Brought my piglet to a family-get-together-Easter-shindig Sunday. About 15 or so high school 'relatives' from the area. Let 'em all ride it on a small track out behind a cousin's new (huge) house and shop. I had to beat them to get them off of it by the end of the day. Even the 7th or 8th grader was riding it (couldn't touch ground). My guess is that there's going to be plenty of pissed parents forking dough out for a little thumper. They were all begging their parents for one, lol. Funnier yet, they all ride (:vomit:) 4 wheelers now. Most swore they'd never ride the 4 wheeler again.

I realize this has nothing to do with reliability, and the bigger picture in general. Sure. These things are expensive, and even more expensive when they break. What can you do? Although my opinion is not yet fully formed, I like 'em both right now. And I've got both. Right now, I'm riding the 4. No overheating. No broken parts yet. Motor seems fine so far, and I wring it out pretty hard.

 

[robwbright]

Sunday afternoon I went riding at my friend's practice track. There were about 12 people there with everything from an XR 100 to 85s to 125s to 250 2 strokes to a 250 4 stroke, to an old Honda 2 stroke racing 4 wheeler.

The only bike that had any issues was the RM-Z250. The guy had bought it used, but discovered that the motor had not been well maintained. However, it wasn't destroyed, so he spent quite a bit of time and money fixing it before riding there on Sunday.
The bike started spewing radiator coolant about 30 minutes into the ride. I didn't investigate further, but he had to quit riding.

His brother/buddy said that the RM-Z was the biggest piece of junk he'd ever seen. .

But of course we knew that already . . . ;)

 

[robwbright]

What happened to my post above with all the "size" stuff in the post?

I just became a subscriber last night and changed to the "fancy" editor - but I didn't ask it to do anything special here. . .

How do I fix it?

 

[Chili]

You could just edit the post and remove the size tags.

 

[john3_16]

Keep up the good fight mister!

Thanks for the encouragement :cool:... Another North Texas track, McAfee MX is closed because of sound issues...Really nice track with a built in sprinkler system and all. too bad. Add that one to the list right along with Mosier Valley.

I'm sure the extra expense is helping to enlarge the talent pool in professional racing as well.

 

[Okiewan]

Actually, McAfee was/is due to noise AND dust, AND traffic. As I said in the thread about that track, it was too close to town... imho, even if there were no 4T's, same thing would be happening. And yeah, it sucks, enjoyed riding there.

 

[i_955]

In the current issue of Transworld MX (I think) there is a good interview with Decoster and he said something to the effect that the move to 4 strokes have made things more complicated and instead of just 1 mechanic per bike, they now need 3 mechanics per bike... :whoa:


WOW...Next time someone says that 4 strokes aren't that much harder to work on or that they don't require that much more maintenance you can just point out that mag article...I think that the manager of a race team would know a little better....

Thanks for the quote :cool:

I have another friend returning to the 2 stroke because the thousand dollar bills he is throwing at a 1.5 year old 450 was not fixing the problem :bang: .
He just picked up a 05 YZ250 and said hes having more fun riding, actually the riding fun-factor is in the extreme and instead of the 6hr engine marathon before the weekend he can do the other required maintenance before a full weekend of riding..
---------------------------------------
Oh ya, tracks don't get shutdown because they are to close to town, they get shut down because of dust and noise.
Seems the owner of this track you speak of had done his part to taken care of the dust but the A-hole open pipe 4 stroke owner took care of the rest for him and look, they blame everyone and everything but themselves!
And traffic? That is priceless.

Our tracks, which are out in the boonies are in very serious jeopardy of been shut-down and all the owners are fully aware it is due to 4 strokes noise levels and the way the 4S sound travels! Our track owners are taking a stand, hopefully before it is too late. No 4 stroke owner will be able to RIDE unless their bikes are 97db and under! All the track owners have agreed to comply! HAHAHAHAHA
These bone heads think they are on Harleys, the more noise they make the faster they thing they are going. WELL,NOT FOR LONG.
I want to continue the rite to ride, even if my 2 stroke is at a disadvantage!!!

 

[kdxtodd]

well said:nod:

 

[Okiewan]

i-955 .. Have you read the actual complaint against the track? Yes, noise, dust AND TRAFFIC are in fact all parts of the cmplaint.

Like I said... ANY track, that close to town.. (blocks) regardless of 2-strokes or 4-strokes will get noise complaints. I swear, some suddenly think 2-strokes are as quiet as sewing machines, lol.

 

[robwbright]

some suddenly think 2-strokes are as quiet as sewing machines, lol.

Mine is! Can't even hear it across the yard over the din of all the lawnmowers. ;)

 

[FruDaddy]

i-955 .. Have you read the actual complaint against the track? Yes, noise, dust AND TRAFFIC are in fact all parts of the cmplaint.

If I were trying to shut down a drag strip, I would complain about traffic, noise, smoke, and smell. Any type of dirt track would involve dust. I could even complain about the traffic that a church bring in on Sunday morning. I don't know the specific details about the track in question, but if somebody is bothered enough, they will nitpick and whine to anybody that will listen. Unfortunatley in the land of robot idiots that I live in, others will blindly follow with a resounding, "duuuuuuuuuh, it bugs me to." Americans seem to lack the ability to think for themselves, but prefer to let others make decisions so they don't have to feel responsible for the crap that goes wrong. But they don't mind jumping on any bandwagon that looks like fun.
I love America, but hate it's candy assed citizens.

 

[motometal]

the shorty silencer movement was annoying on the two strokes, shame on the exhaust companies that pushed that one.

For whatever reason, the four strokes tend to attract more of the "buy the loudest pipe available" and " I like to rev the crap out of my bike constantly, possibly because i'm not well endowed" crowd. There are a lot of loud bikes, but the loud 4 stroke four whe elers are the worst at our local riding area. Part of it is the fact that it takes more power to move a heavier machine, so on a given track or area they end up having the throttle open wider, longer just to make the thing move.

I'm not convinced that our local DNR even really wants to have the park there, they haven't shown any interest in enforcing a sound level regulation.

 

[robwbright]

Yeah FruDaddy - people have learned/been trained to rely on the government to solve all their problems. I believe this is a major goal of public schooling - and was stated as such by the people who designed the public school system in American.

We've got otherwise reasonable and rational people advocating having the government put artificial limits on the amount of money someone can charge for their product - whether it be gasoline or hotel prices in a storm or whatever - "I'll leverage the power of the government against the 'gougers' so I can live better."

As to the track disputes, people could discuss the matter with the track owner and try to come to a solution that's reasonable to everyone. But no - they go to the county commission or to Congress.

Seems like there's always someone in government or media pushing another enemy that's going to wipe us out, whether it's the evil foreign dictator of the month, SARS, Bird Flu, oil/gas running out or Global Warming (actually the greens were warning about global cooling 30 years ago) - virtually none of which are actually real significant threats to our existence.

It really quite reminds me of Orwell's "1984".

And the government certainly enjoys presenting itself as the only possible savior from these catastrophes in waiting. The people concede more and more power to the government to protect them - and yet the government can't do it.

The Sheeple eat it up. As long as there is Cable TV reasonbly cheap gas and food (along with no dust and no noise to cover up the sound of the TV), they don't really pay any attention to anything.

 

[john3_16]

Rob, you hit the nail on the head...Used to be the "ice age threat" , then it's global warming, now it's global warming will "plunge the world into an ice age"...with these manufactured threats the government provides a solution by passing laws that put the squeeze on the vast majority...Once you have their guns and transportation under control then the citizen cannot fight back to a tyranical government...There are actually items being pushed in California like "agenda 21" and "sustained development"..I'd like to invite anyone here to look into what they are pushing..You will be alrmed...The funny thing is that trees are the largest producer of greenhouse gasses :think:

Governments just get bigger and bigger...It's problem, reaction, solution...However the solution is always means giving up esential liberties for a perceived peace and safety....A locked padded cell is the safest place in the world. right??? It creeps up on you slowly and traps you like a frog that fails to jump out of a pot of boiling water that's turned up slowly so the frog is conditioned to the increasing temps.

As far as the 4 strokes go I do like them and it would be nice to have a choice but not at the expense of the expiration of the 2 stroke which the legislated 4 stroke CC advantage is designed to do...Yes folks, this is an EPA global warming agenda..Those who deny this are clueless..The goal was to phase them out by 06' and you can probably find old posts on here 4 years ago stating that...Well here we are.Surprise surprise...

Those individuals that like to deny this agenda to get rid of 2 strokes and riding areas then pat yourself on the back because the politicians love you for your apathy and ignorance as it makes it much easier for them to pass laws and push bills through without your knowledge or concern.

I would like to invite any serious offroader to actually do a little reasearch on the kyoto treaty or read some unbiased commentary on it..You will be surprised.

"Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"
-Patrick Henry

 

[john3_16]

When I went to Houston and heard Brown's 250 surrounded by all the 4 strokes a sewing machine is exactly what I thought of when comparing the sounds of the bikes...Seriously, it was quiet.

If you go to Dallas this year Okie take a note of Brown's 250 if he's still riding it...I used to think it was loud in the stadium with all the 2 strokes but when you compare the sound side by side there is no comparison.

 

[Okiewan]

I'll promise you, Brown's 250 is louder than my 250F. No doubt.

 

[i_955]

I'll promise you, Brown's 250 is louder than my 250F. No doubt.

Never thought you of all people would break a promise but unless you have a Q stamped on your muffler and/or you ride around under 7000rpm, the CRF250 is possibly the loudest production bike EVER PRODUCED!!!
Last years CMRC, JSR and Dusty Clatt on CR250s were like silent sewing machines (JSR handily won while Dusty did admirably well) against an entire field of obnoxiously loud 4 strokes.

Again, unless you have a "Quiet Can", you are the problem and you are blaming everyone and everything but you!

I have a YZ250 and I've had people come over to my bike inquiring as to it's exhaust. They say I've got one of the quietest bikes at the track...

It won't be long before the 4 stroke gets a quieting plug stuffed up their asses before it is allowed to ride at the tracks in your area. That I promise YOU!!! And take some credit for the unnecessary noise you and your quad riding brothers are making.

 

[wanaride]

I'm wondering...Instead of ripping each other up in this thread, what are each of us doing to REALLY help the problem?

Either 2T or 4T can be a problem if the rider is an irresponsible idiot. Everyone can have fun regardless of their ride as long as they have sense about it.

How many people have you talked to at your local track about noise issues?

Clearly, the people on this forum are passionate about this sport, so it is up to us to make this happen. Instead of venting on each other, I say to take that energy and direct it at the real problem...the loud people at your local track. I really don't think Okie is the problem here!

I'm thinking about a CRF250X, and if I get one, I'll have the dealer install the quietest pipe available on it before I pick it up.

Let's direct the energy where it can do the most good.

 

[gwcrim]

Let's direct the energy where it can do the most good.

I try all the time to get some of the local Harley drag pipe idjits to try mufflers. The bikes are sooooooo much more rideable with just a cheap set of slip on mufflers. But no. "If it's not loud, it must be losing power." :bang:

It's a testosterone thing, I think.

 

[ZOMBIE666]

has anyone actually found a site that lists Db levels for different MX 4 stoke and 2 stoke exhaust systems/bikes?
my old RD was loud as hell up close due to the chambers i had on it. while sitting next to my Harley it was way louder, but from afar, beacuse of the lower frequncy sound of the HD, the HD was far louder. 4 stroke noise travels ALOT further than 2 stroke.

 

[Okiewan]

the CRF250 is possibly the loudest production bike EVER PRODUCED!!!

Please, give me some fact to back that up. As the old saying goes, you tend to let your ass make promises your mouth can't keep, lol.

The dual cans do in fact make a difference in the sound level, more so how far the sound seems to travel. WIth someone riding my bike (thump) out with 2-strokes, it is not much louder, if at all, from a distance.. ie; standing in the pits. Was it intentional on Honda's part? No idea. I'm guessing there's some kind of freq. cancellation going on.

We'll be at the track after the supercross this weekend. I'll take the sound meter to take some measurements. Hopefully there will be a stock 2 stroke to check. Those guys never put loud pipes on their bikes tho. ;)