Another slam on 4 strokes...Roger Decoster speaks
- Thread starter john3_16
- Start date
Wolf
doooode
- Jul 31, 2000
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Let me preface this with...2 stroke or 4 stroke...if they are too loud, they are part of the the problem.
At our club we've started to implement a 96 db level limit. We use a sound meter to test for it.
Yes 2-stroke can be obnoxiously loud, but are relatively easy to quiet down. Repack your silencer or buy a Q. The 2 stroke Q is reasonably priced.
on to the 4T...
KTM SX 250 F (2006)....stock....105 db
Honda CRF 250 - 2006 stock.....103 db
I could go on and on.....
The Q's for the 4-strokes are much more expensive....over 3 hundred bucks I think.
We measured sound levels at 1/4 to 1/3 throttle, the reading was taken 30" from the end of the silencer, off to the side in a 45 degree angle.
I know some one will come in and say we measured wrong...that's fine, but we measured all bikes the same.
At our club we've started to implement a 96 db level limit. We use a sound meter to test for it.
Yes 2-stroke can be obnoxiously loud, but are relatively easy to quiet down. Repack your silencer or buy a Q. The 2 stroke Q is reasonably priced.
on to the 4T...
KTM SX 250 F (2006)....stock....105 db
Honda CRF 250 - 2006 stock.....103 db
I could go on and on.....
The Q's for the 4-strokes are much more expensive....over 3 hundred bucks I think.
We measured sound levels at 1/4 to 1/3 throttle, the reading was taken 30" from the end of the silencer, off to the side in a 45 degree angle.
I know some one will come in and say we measured wrong...that's fine, but we measured all bikes the same.
I'm not talking about a sound check only... I'll be standing track side as the bikes go by. Of course the best way to test it would be tough in reality. Pick a spot near a track, say 1/2 mile away, get readings before the track opens, then with only 2 strokes and then with the same number of 4-strokes.
But yeah, that's the problem with 4-strokes.. lower freqs will always travel farther. There's no doubt that from the showroom floor same size bikes, the 4-t is louder. Hopefully, with enough pressure the aftermarket pipe makers will start doing some REAL R&D and make pipes under the 96db level that still make more power.
I also contend that even if 4-T's were banned from the track in question (McAfee, where I've ridden many times), would STILL be in the same boat. It just wasn't good planning to put a track 2 blocks from town.
But yeah, that's the problem with 4-strokes.. lower freqs will always travel farther. There's no doubt that from the showroom floor same size bikes, the 4-t is louder. Hopefully, with enough pressure the aftermarket pipe makers will start doing some REAL R&D and make pipes under the 96db level that still make more power.
I also contend that even if 4-T's were banned from the track in question (McAfee, where I've ridden many times), would STILL be in the same boat. It just wasn't good planning to put a track 2 blocks from town.
Noise is an issue no matter what type of bike you ride but most often my 2 stroke is going to be quitier. I blame the aftermarket for one, second the idoit owner who threw down a grand just to gain a half hp they couldn't use anyways and makes thier bike louder. 3 track owners/promoters who rather complain and sit on the slidelines and do nothing. 4 the media/magazine telling you if you don't put this louder exhaust on your bike you'll get smoked. 5 the race teams for not setting an example to follow why wait till the ama makes you?
I can't even ask my friends anymore when I'm out on the track hey did it sound like I was on the pipe? I get I couldn't even hear your bike cause of all the damn 4 strokes. Blows me away cause when I went passed where they was standing I was screaming it.
"Make every home a prison today!" - DJ keoki - feat jello biafra
I can't even ask my friends anymore when I'm out on the track hey did it sound like I was on the pipe? I get I couldn't even hear your bike cause of all the damn 4 strokes. Blows me away cause when I went passed where they was standing I was screaming it.
"Make every home a prison today!" - DJ keoki - feat jello biafra
big dutch said:
No, 4-strokes are where the manufacturers WANT you (and your money) at. It still takes a 450 4-stroke to beat a 250 2-stroke.
Its interesting but if you browse the different forums, groups, and even a number of the magazines; while all like the new technology of the 4-strokes; all regret the additional costs; higher maintenance; and in a number of cases still less than optimal handling/weight.
That part of the equation is changing fast.
Fact is, no one has to buy anything ... don't make it sound like the average joe HAS to buy a 4-T, last I checked, 2-T's are still available and cost less. Believe it or not, some of us actually LIKE the 4-T, no one held a gun to our heads.
Frankly, I'd be happy with either ... and considered a CR250 this last time around, just to change things up, I may do it next time who knows.
But. 2-stroke guys continually ranting about 4-Ts isn't doing anyone any good. Look at the progression of the arguments over the last 3 or so years. I know the 2-T diehards are grasping for everything they can, but you've got to face reality.... the writting is on the wall. So you've got choices...
1) take damn good care of your bike
2) hope a clean 2-T is put into production
3) get a 4-T
4) get out of the sport because 4-T's suck.
Don't take my opinion to mean I'm glad things are the way they are ... that's not it at all. But what I "feel" and what the reality is, don't always jive.
option 5
I have heard some promotors are running 2t only classes and 4t classes, heck there is even the 4t nationals. If riders had more options on race-day, it may boost sales enough to keep the mfgs interest in 2t sales/r&d. Im not a points chaser so the hp difference doesnt bug me, but racing families who cant afford a disadvantage on the start straight, are feeling the financial hit after buying and maintaining the 4ts. Im not saying everyone should be on a 2t. The 4ts are great bikes with some advantages that help a rider go fast and win races,(such as pistons the size of frisbees) and if the extra cost is not an option, great. It just seems to me the displacement rules have forced the 4t sales especially the lites. No one likes to not have an option of what to buy.One of the mags did an article on langstons 44hp 250f. Whats next and 88hp 450f? the idea of the elimination of the 2t line is troubling, and I would like to see more new 2t's at the track. Its not going to happen until there are more class options on raceday. The 144's are a good thing but too little too late it seems.
I have heard some promotors are running 2t only classes and 4t classes, heck there is even the 4t nationals. If riders had more options on race-day, it may boost sales enough to keep the mfgs interest in 2t sales/r&d. Im not a points chaser so the hp difference doesnt bug me, but racing families who cant afford a disadvantage on the start straight, are feeling the financial hit after buying and maintaining the 4ts. Im not saying everyone should be on a 2t. The 4ts are great bikes with some advantages that help a rider go fast and win races,(such as pistons the size of frisbees) and if the extra cost is not an option, great. It just seems to me the displacement rules have forced the 4t sales especially the lites. No one likes to not have an option of what to buy.One of the mags did an article on langstons 44hp 250f. Whats next and 88hp 450f? the idea of the elimination of the 2t line is troubling, and I would like to see more new 2t's at the track. Its not going to happen until there are more class options on raceday. The 144's are a good thing but too little too late it seems.
- Jun 29, 2005
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I like them all, if I could afford it I would have one of everything. What everyone needs to do is stick together and address the ever increasing noise issue. I know guys who can't ride a trail bike for crap, then go buy big bad 450F - got to change the exhaust ( as if there not loud or fast enough ), then wonder why the neighbors are bitching. One track I ride at is starting to send out e-mails to check packing on silencers, hell a lot of the aftermarket exhausts are too loud when brand new. The noise from the new thumpers seems to carry way farther than the 2-t's. If we don't start keeping the noise down, we're all going to be riding BMX instead of MX.
- Thread starter
- #35
You're exaclty right oldfrt613...Really, if something doesn't happen we'll be riding bicycles or electric bmx bikes or run out of riding areas that are reasonably close.
The sound does carry bigtime on the 4 strokes...Anyone that has an elaborate home theatre system knows they can put the subwoofer almost anywhere in the room and get an excellent effect from low frequencies..Also the further you put the subwoofer away from where you sit the more pronounced the effect of the low frequency sounds.
The manufacturers really need to make the bikes that come stock with an exhaust that will solve the problem...We've lost two major tracks in the space of only a couple of years in North Texas...If they have to sacrifice power then so be it..Maybe they can produce an exhaust the dramatically reduces sound and retains power..
The sound does carry bigtime on the 4 strokes...Anyone that has an elaborate home theatre system knows they can put the subwoofer almost anywhere in the room and get an excellent effect from low frequencies..Also the further you put the subwoofer away from where you sit the more pronounced the effect of the low frequency sounds.
The manufacturers really need to make the bikes that come stock with an exhaust that will solve the problem...We've lost two major tracks in the space of only a couple of years in North Texas...If they have to sacrifice power then so be it..Maybe they can produce an exhaust the dramatically reduces sound and retains power..
Youre spot on, and the recreation nazi's have been after mx and even bmx for some time, the tracks can make it into the suburbs in some cases and people complain about the dust. I have seen several great bmx tracks closed down leveled and sodded just so some soccer moms can compare their new spring clothes to eachother.- all the while the kids in the van are yelling "mom do we HAVE to go to soccer practice????"---Ive been riding bmx and motorcycles since 76 and never once - not EVER have I heard a kid complain or throw a fit in the parking lot that he or she didnt want to ride! :ride: I hate to see track after track closed down and the kids who would have been doing their homework just so they would be allowed to go riding, are now just sitting in front of the tube or playing video games on a sunny 70degree afternoon., and still clutching the joystick they are thrown into the minivan to go play soccer. :| Oh and by the way if these people are correct,with all this two-wheel influence while i was growing up I should be well on my way to being upper level hells angel, but somehow I turned out to be a normal everyday taxpayer with 2.something kids and a dog. :nod:
... they've been trying to get rid of us long before many on this board were even born. This is NOT a new thing that is a result of 4-t's folks... the sound just give them something to complain about instead of all that "nasty 2-stroke polution". When we go full-on electric/silent MX bikes, they'll find another reason to close that track down.
Trust me, John Q Public doesn't have a problem with what you ride. His problem is THAT you ride.
- Jun 29, 2005
- 443
- 0
Okiewan said:
So your position is don't worry about the increased noise :whoa:
Sorry - I couldn't resist - :laugh:
Yes there are many people who just don't like someone having more fun than them, I just can't see handing them more ammunition. ;)
No, all I'm saying is, they complained about the polution and pressured for 4-T. Now they have the 4-T and the noise is a problem. No matter what, there WILL always be a problem. Dust, noise, traffic, those strange brightly clothed people, no seat belts, poor souls too ignernt to know they are hurting themselves ....
It's not about handing them ammo, we'll address this problem and they'll create another.
THAT is my position :)
It's not about handing them ammo, we'll address this problem and they'll create another.
THAT is my position :)
Okiewan said:
You are totally correct, the thing about the noise is that it's an undeniable, measureable problem. I can hear four strokes at the riding park from my house, which is about 3 miles from the riding park. And I must admit, if I wasn't into dirt bikes, i'd no sooner want to hear that on a quiet Sunday morning than the neighbor's idiot mutt barking at the birds in the trees.
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