Death of the 125 - what will be the last 125 year?

super rat · Dec 30, 2003

Now you did it, my feelings are hurt!!!

O'MALLEY_808 · Dec 30, 2003

I have a:

2002 CR125 Making 40hp at the crankshaft
&
2003 CR250 Making 57hp at the crankshaft

Come and chase me 4 stroke boys...

Long live 2 stroke power!!!!!!!!!!

mxer842 · Dec 31, 2003

all of this conjecture is kind of moot dont you think guys? if we know one thing for sure it is this:
~the 2strokes will die, not buy the lack of sales, this forum proves that we still have some die-hards, but because they will be illegal!!!that cannot, will not, and shall not be avoided. period. you can piss and moan all you want die-hards, you can hang on to the past all you want , but two-strokes will be no longer sold, and it is a matter of years before parts supplies for them all but dry up. four-strokes are the future of this sport, whether or not that will help or hamper the sport is up for debate, but that is where we are going.

two-strokes have emissions and four-strokes have noise, we are just trading one evil for another, and one enemy for another.

motometal · Dec 31, 2003

sorry to anyone I offended by side tracking this post...

I totally agree with most of the points made here...but regardless of how unfair people are, or how predjudiced towards us that they are, it certainly doesn't HELP matters any when the noise level at the average (already endangered in most cases) riding area is on the increase.  We have no choice but to work with what we have got. 

Yes, the whiners will complain no matter what they do.  But, some of the more rational folks (some with power) that they are complaining TO won't have much sympathy if we are putting out an unreasonable high noise level.

 

nephron · Dec 31, 2003

To be honest, I've never noticed the noise of a 4 stroke. Not wearing your helmet? 3db difference, max. Unless, of course the 4 stroke sound has more 'torque'. ;)

Just delusional, desperate dialogue :) pointed @ the 4 stroke conspiracy.

Try one, you might like it? At any rate, this is all just pathetic.

Rich Rohrich · Jan 1, 2004

Originally posted by O'MALLEY_808
I have a:

2002 CR125 Making 40hp at the crankshaft
&
2003 CR250 Making 57hp at the crankshaft

Hang on while I go find a chair to stand on, it's getting REALLY DEEP IN HERE. :silly:

CaptainObvious · Jan 1, 2004

Originally posted by O'MALLEY_808
I have a:

2002 CR125 Making 40hp at the crankshaft
&
2003 CR250 Making 57hp at the crankshaft

Rich, those are Canadian hp units. After you do the conversion it's only 22hp & 30hp respectively! :laugh:

BunduBasher · Jan 1, 2004

Originally posted by mxer842
all of this conjecture is kind of moot dont you think guys? if we know one thing for sure it is this:
~the 2strokes will die, not buy the lack of sales, this forum proves that we still have some die-hards, but because they will be illegal!!!that cannot, will not, and shall not be avoided. period. you can piss and moan all you want die-hards, you can hang on to the past all you want , but two-strokes will be no longer sold, and it is a matter of years before parts supplies for them all but dry up. four-strokes are the future of this sport, whether or not that will help or hamper the sport is up for debate, but that is where we are going.

two-strokes have emissions and four-strokes have noise, we are just trading one evil for another, and one enemy for another.

Tell me, if by some miracle two strokes are made more efficient, quieter, and with lower emissions, will they still be 'banned' - Also if these new generation two strokes are faster, will manufacturers not want to race them. Lastly, will these restrictions apply globally, or just locally. Maybe the rest of the worl<SPAN class=778131117-01012004>d</SPAN> will just give up on the USA, and not 125cc two strokes or two strokes in general. In Europe and South America, the little 125cc two stroke dual sports are some of the most popular bikes made/sold. Do you think the bike manufacturers are going to cut their nose to spite their face, just because we here in the US have difficulties dealing with emission issues. I would think not.<SPAN class=778131117-01012004> Globally the KDX is a huge seller, and in developing countries, 4 strokes cost more and are more expensive to run and maintain. Older air cooled two strokes are still very popular. I don't see two strokes going the way of the dinosaur - maybe in North America, but not the rest of the world.</SPAN>

motometal · Jan 1, 2004

Nephron:

Most of the complainers don't wear helmets.  They would look funny, as generally they aren't riding motorcycles at the time the noise from our bikes is bothering them.

Just a tidbit of techie info...a 3 db increase is perceived by the human ear as 40% louder.  I'd say that's a significant difference.  Remember, the db scale is logrithmic. 

I don't think there's really any conspiracy, just misguidance, misinformation, and agendas.

Delusional and desperate...yes, desperate for the greenies to leave us alone and desperate to keep our riding areas.

Why would you assume I haven't tried a four stroke?  Could it be that maybe I even own one?

 :eek:

 

mxer842 · Jan 1, 2004

yeah, the manufactuers would prolly still promote and race them, but they have had 10years to fix this problem and little has been done. also, the new ama unleaded fuel rule is just going to make it harder for the two-strokes.

secondly, most of the manufactuers are planning on phasing out two-strokes in the next 5 or 10yrs., im sure that would apply globally since it would be pointless to continue to do R&D on a bike that can only be sold in a handful on countries. if the do continue production, these bikes will become what the kx500 is, still an '04 model but the same bike for the last ten years.

osheen · Jan 2, 2004

C'mon Rich-Have you ever been to a track? Go stand next to a track (or anywhere near a track where 2 and 4 stroke bikes are being ridden) and listen. You will predominately hear 4 strokes over the top of 2 strokes. How can you be so blind to this FACT? What does it take for something to become a fact anyway? No, I didn't conduct a study for years and years. I didn't use a bunch of scientific fluff. I used my common sense and reasoning and observed this with no bias to anything except which is louder and more annoying. Is that not good enough? Anybody who has ears can point out loud bikes and I can assure you they will pick out more 4 strokes than 2 at any average riding place. If it's any consolation, I think all bikes are too loud. There is no reason why our bikes can't all be KDX200 quiet.

I guess for those of you who don't think noise shuts down riding areas, you won't mind Washougal MX park being shut down in the future if things don't change quickly. They have been under the gun for noise in the last few years. They must make it quieter or else their permit will be denied in the future. They have had several public hearings over the past few years. During the hearings, the neighbors of the track have voiced their opinions for reasons to shut it down such as erosion, traffic, poluting nearby streams, hurting property values and so on. But the number one reason they want it gone is NOISE. It is the issue that carries the most weight and they all agree on it. There are houses cropping up all over surrounding the track. When all the neighbors get together, they usually win. It doesn't matter if the race track was there 31 years before the houses.

extrememoto · Jan 6, 2004

Originally posted by osheen
C'mon Rich-Have you ever been to a track? Go stand next to a track (or anywhere near a track where 2 and 4 stroke bikes are being ridden) and listen. You will predominately hear 4 strokes over the top of 2 strokes. How can you be so blind to this FACT? What does it take for something to become a fact anyway? No, I didn't conduct a study for years and years. I didn't use a bunch of scientific fluff. I used my common sense and reasoning and observed this with no bias to anything except which is louder and more annoying. Is that not good enough? Anybody who has ears can point out loud bikes and I can assure you they will pick out more 4 strokes than 2 at any average riding place. If it's any consolation, I think all bikes are too loud. There is no reason why our bikes can't all be KDX200 quiet.

I guess for those of you who don't think noise shuts down riding areas, you won't mind Washougal MX park being shut down in the future if things don't change quickly. They have been under the gun for noise in the last few years. They must make it quieter or else their permit will be denied in the future. They have had several public hearings over the past few years. During the hearings, the neighbors of the track have voiced their opinions for reasons to shut it down such as erosion, traffic, poluting nearby streams, hurting property values and so on. But the number one reason they want it gone is NOISE. It is the issue that carries the most weight and they all agree on it. There are houses cropping up all over surrounding the track. When all the neighbors get together, they usually win. It doesn't matter if the race track was there 31 years before the houses.

I agree that neighbors trying to shut down a track is bull, especially for how long the track was there. Back to the subject of this forum. Watch the Anaheim SX Race....I'm die hard 2-stroke, but know when the writing is on the wall. Did you see how many 4 strokes there were in the 125 class? When those new bread 4 stroke riders move to the 250/450 class, think they are goin to ride a 2 or a 4, think they will ride the 4. The 250 2 stroke class at least had the traditional sound of the races I grew up with, but the change is inevitable. I don't like it, but will have to adapt just like everyone else. Wish there was something we could do, but think it is too late now. How bout you? I will never get rid of my RM250 that I have now, but it will retire to the entry way of the house and I'm moving to the 250f class. Kinda Sux, but it is time to do it now or be left in the 'dust'.

This is one war I wish we could have one, but unless a miracle happens...it over. The Big Four don't care about what die hard 2 stroke riders think, it is all about business and making $$$ and sellin bikes. Go to the next SX race and look at Carmichaels 450f.

laterzzz

denis#1 · Jan 7, 2004

I know this has been said before but, the reason the 250F is so fast as compared to a 125 is because it is a 250. It is twice the size. If is was a 125F vs. a 125 2 stroke, the 4 stroke would be slow that we would all still be saying that 4 strokes suck.

As for the 250 2 stroke, I think it is a better than a 450. Just look at the who the first three spots were at Anaheim supercross last week (all 3 were YZ250's)

Can Can Kev · Jan 7, 2004

Club moto motocross track here in the bay area of California is now enforcing no Aftermaket pipes on 4 strokes because of rising noise concerns,
i think its good step because its such a great trac kand localed right beside a major freeway at the edge of some hills...... the freeways rioght there making noise constantly and yet there complaining about the mx track,
and at Carniegie SVRA 4 strokes with after market pipes get sound cheaked certan times of the year.....

and most of you have heard of The famous Pismo Sand Dunes well my best friends dad was telkling us the last time we went that the dunes used to be 2/3 bigger of a riding area but because some tree huggers got a bug up there butt they found a way to almost close it completely, you see theres this river ( creek actually) that runs out into the ocean and they found some fish or somthin in it that suposidly was endangered , well certan parts of the year you must cross this river run off area,fact is people have been riding out in those dunes for decades, even in the 1920s they had car races o nthe beach, if its survived this long i think its gonna survive now.....

DougRoost · Jan 7, 2004

Originally posted by denis#1
As for the 250 2 stroke, I think it is a better than a 450. Just look at the who the first three spots were at Anaheim supercross last week (all 3 were YZ250's)

Most amazing about that was Tim Ferry returning to a 2 stroke!  He's been carrying the 4 stroke banner for Yamaha for years...guess they feel they don't need the 4 stroke banner carried anymore.

ridered125 · Jan 7, 2004

The demand for two cycle 125s will wane but it won't die. That means someone will be willing to fill a niche. Manufacturers will be hesitant to stop selling the two strokes because they will not be willing give those sales to a competitor.

A new product or way of doing things often makes us beleive the old way will be doomed. The internet was supposed to eliminate shopping malls, newspapers and stockbrokers.

The free market will keep the 125 alive. It may not be at the top of the podium but it will remain for much longer than many of us are prediciting.

Okiewan · Jan 7, 2004

Originally posted by DougRoost

Most amazing about that was Tim Ferry returning to a 2 stroke!  He's been carrying the 4 stroke banner for Yamaha for years...guess they feel they don't need the 4 stroke banner carried anymore.

Frankly? Timmy is doing ANYTHING to win... the guy honestly believes he should be on the top step.

mxer842 · Jan 7, 2004

can someone actually get a press release or something of this sort from the EPA that defines what will happen to the 2strokes when they are indeed illegal? naturally, they willn't take preexisting ones from owners, but willn't production stop so thereby no one could fill this niche you speak of ridered125?

extrememoto · Jan 8, 2004

Originally posted by denis#1
I know this has been said before but, the reason the 250F is so fast as compared to a 125 is because it is a 250. It is twice the size. If is was a 125F vs. a 125 2 stroke, the 4 stroke would be slow that we would all still be saying that 4 strokes suck.

As for the 250 2 stroke, I think it is a better than a 450. Just look at the who the first three spots were at Anaheim supercross last week (all 3 were YZ250's)

I agree 100% 250 2-strokes are the best on the planet.....but what the point I was trying to make is what happens when all the 250f riders move up to the 250/450 class, they will be accustomed to how to ride a four stroke and will probably stick with the 4 stroke, but who knows? At least the 250 class had more than 3-4 2 strokes in it....long live the 2 stroke, but if i was to ride in the 125 class it would be on a 250f. Glad to see all some 4stoke riders move back to a 2 stroke...that makes a statement. What is up with Carmichael's bike being a 450f in the pits? Think he will really ride it in the nationals is the question? or would he really ride it in the SX if the Championship was at state or is it a ploy to sell more four strokes? Makes you wonder....just my 2 Cents....

weimedog · Jan 8, 2004

When the two strokes are legislated off the showroom floors and starting gate, the vintage racing organzations will fill the gap and provide a place to race those things. I still feel two strokes are better pound per pound than any fourstoke will ever be. I prefer to ride the big fourstokes now because they are better trail bikes for me at this stage in my life....but if I was 20 years younger I would still prefer the two strokes.

DougRoost · Jan 8, 2004

Ricky will definitely be on a CRF450 in the outdoors. Word I have from Fox is he'll be on a 4 stroke from now on, but I'll believe that when I see it. Many riders have figured out in the 250 class the formula is a 250 in SX and a 450F outdoors (Chad Reed, Robbie Reynard, etc.). Then again, RC and Fox may have some AMA rules visibility that we don't, since as has been said, they keep moving the goalposts to achieve the desired result, whether by premeditated plotting or just trying to make things "more even" ala NASCAR.

fender92883 · Jan 11, 2004

Originally posted by denis#1
the reason the 250F is so fast as compared to a 125 is because it is a 250. It is twice the size.

True, BUT...the 125cc's are being used once every 2 strokes by the piston on a 2 stroke, and the 250cc's are being used once every 4 strokes on a 4 stroke. Power usage is the main factor. With the 125 2-S, you get half the amount of displacement as the 250 4-S, but you get it twice as often. Naturally, a 125 4-S will be slower as far as top speed goes, and in MX top speed is crucial in the 125 class. To even out the top speed, you get twice the displacement with the 4 stroke. BUT, this means that you have much more torque, so the usability of the power becomes the issue. 4 strokes don't spin the rear wheel as much as the 2 strokes (at least from what I've observed), so they 'hook up' better. A lot of people just find it easier to ride those nice, smooth 4 strokes...even though there are those (Bubba Stewart especially) who can really make that 2 stroke FLY! So it all really comes down to rider experience and/or preference.

...I feel like I've just strapped a target to my butt...INCOMING! :scream:

BUT, for the record...I am now a 2 stroker...and PROUD OF IT!! :) :yeehaw: I LOVE MY KDX!!

Senior KX Rider · Jan 11, 2004

If you check the Phoenix spoiler and the 125 West you would think the death of the 125 2stroke is at hand :(

super rat · Jan 12, 2004

Yeah, I gotta admit the 125 class sounds like a four stroke national. I think they have an advantage in the starts.

nephron · Jan 13, 2004

The East will be different. Or, at least, as far as the #1 spot goes. ;) There, my prediction is that no four stroke will beat out a 2 stroke for 1st place. :p

Anyone hear why JBS went back to the 125?

Death of the 125 - what will be the last 125 year?

When do you think the big 4 (CR, YZ, KX, RM) will produce their last 125cc 2-strokes?

2004

2005

2006

2007

2008 or later

The 125cc 2-stroke will stick around for at least 10 more years

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